Why are we being hyped as ‚strongest army‘?

[Ishagu]

This data takes into account the latest events, and no nerf has as of yet taken place.

 

This topic asked the question: Why are Chaos being hyped as the strongest army?

 

The answer is simple: they are the strongest.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Ishagu

[DuskRaider]

Good.

[BoomWolf]

Watch Chapter tactics, the figures have come in after all 8th edition ITC tournaments. Data from 11k+ players in multiple games.

 

Chaos (20% Marines, 5% Daemons) are by far the most powerful faction.

 

Loyalists aren't even close, literally less than half the top 3 finishes. This includes soups etc.

Now let's end this debate. Chaos Marines are so much better it's not even a contest.

 

Astra Militarum are the best loyalist faction and perform better as a pure codex than Loyalist Soups.

 

Keep in mind that the data shows Imperium is more popular in numbers but still can't touch Chaos success.

Guilliman armies perform average. Chaos soups are the top lists consistently. Marines the main focus with daemon support is popular.

 

 

Seems the hype was true. The meta is Chaos.

 

 

WHAT data are you talking about? can you link to it?

"watch chapter tactics" isn't helpful. neither is any ITC data due to the odd way they catalog armies.

The fact you catalog chaos soup as "chaos", who is compared not to imperial soup but the straight up SM is also quite odd.

 

Chaos=/=CSM. its NOT the same army.

If it has magnus, morty and/or the pre-CA malefic lord spam, it is NOT a CSM army.

 

If you compare all of chaos to a single loyalist codex, you are being absurd.

[Raven1]

@Boomwolf

 

Chapter Tactics is a podcast. You can get a link to episode 50 on frontlinegaming or Google/ YouTube for sure.

[Azekai]

This data takes into account the latest events, and no nerf has as of yet taken place.

 

This topic asked the question: Why are Chaos being hyped as the strongest army?

 

The answer is simple: they are the strongest.

Chaos wins more tournaments =/= CSM players winning a lot of games. Most of us 'common folk' do not run ITC winning lists. I don't play smite spam + AL oblits, or run with Morty or Magnus (which shouldn't goddamn happen anyway). In fact, no one I know of in my local meta has run these sorts of armies. They run 'regular' CSM lists, with berserkers and rhinos and cultists.

 

Regular CSM are susceptible to all the shortcomings of loyalist marines.

 

I *have* been on the receiving end of Guilliman though, and that was not fun. I guess what I am saying is that 40k gets pretty stupid if the winner is decided by whoever brings the most Primarchs...

[BoomWolf]

@Boomwolf

 

Chapter Tactics is a podcast. You can get a link to episode 50 on frontlinegaming or Google/ YouTube for sure.

 

So, unless I'm willing to subject myself to listening to a podcast by FLG, I can't actually see any of that information, can I?

Not that a godamn PODCAST is a good way to deliver data, as you can't really post graphs, charts or tables by voice, and as said, the way they categorize armies is often weird to begin with.

[Commissar K.]

No data to back it up leads to again many assumptions. Blood of Kittens has data of all top 3 lists: http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/

 

What this clearly shows is that AM is in the lead. If you then add all Space Marine lists as Space Marine you end up with slightly more SM lists as you do CSM. Daemons mixed with Cultists made a great appearance too.

 

A correct statement to make would be that CSM is amongst the top factions with SM, AM and Eldar for factions with Codex.

 

Cheers,

Edited December 20, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Stross]

Loyalists aren't even close, literally less than half the top 3 finishes. This includes soups etc.

Now let's end this debate. Chaos Marines are so much better it's not even a contest.

 

No problem, we can agree with that, but the topic sometimes to another things, like playable and working units. 

I can play my Black Legion and want to play normally with it, like I can with Ultramarines, but I will definatly lose not average 20-30 percents of my effectivness like I should when I pick something, that is not tournament or more sporty stuff, but at least 40. 

Even with Abaddon. 

Why? And why Azrael is better? 

Azrail is better for what he is designed for and what he can do for his points. Even with his current rules he is great. 

Chaos is pushed into smites or melee combat. Then Abaddon must deepstrike with terminators. And it is not always worth it, like with any deepstrikes. 

Or marching with his army. His parking is nit that good, I am going to give him the last chance to do something, but it looks not that great. 

But then we have another problem. Our trait is not about melee combat, we are not WE or EC. Or even good shooting, we have only Alpha at least for this. His own warlord trait is good only against Imperium. 

And our relic... lets, just better to forget about him.

No returning CP as well for chaos army.

 

So, my point is, I watched lists of ITC and WTC. 

And soup armies is not a problem. But it is always brimstoune, Magnus or DG. No pure CSM. While we can see normal Adeptus Astartes, Astra Militarum, even Sister of Battle lists. 

Chaos is strong, CSM (not DG or even Magnus) is weak. 

We were buffed in Codex, indeed, became competative to space marines and turned into shreds most of indexes armies. 

But now try to do the same with Eldar or Tyranids. Oh, I try to do something with Tyranids for many times and it is really depends on luck more than with other factions. 

That is my opinion about the problem. 

Chaos is strong until we get nerf of DG or smite spamming. Then it will be other. 

 

If anyone have another suggestion or thoughts I would gladly hear them

Edited December 20, 2017 by Stross

[Commissar K.]

The point is you are right Stross and the other point is that the ones who seem to want to varify stating Chaos Space Marines are the strongest then fall back on their word and suddenly state Chaos is the strongest and suddenly compair Chaos (multiple factions) to Space Marines.

By GT comparison Imperium is doing just as fine, slightly better, as Chaos. It's an objective truth we can base on actual lists, actualy top 3 data and not skew with opinions of podcasts and the like who even themselves state they are biased to the subject.

What we see is that 8th comes up with several important things that make up the competitive top:
- Cheap character spam, including Psykers for Smite spam
- Large "boosted" units, including those who are immume to Morale or very cheap or very expensive with incredible Stratagem supports
- Cheap vehicle spam, including all forms (though this is the least ammount of problem maker)

Because Imperium has a larger choice palet as Chaos does there is actually nothing Chaos does what Imperium cannot do. Again though what we do see is that Imperium players vastly prefer the use of mono-Chapter builds and the sole reason why they do so is because several editions before 8th have given all Chapters all unit choices and Codex etc. In other words, if I had the option to play Codex World Eaters I would, but I can't and never have been able to do this.

The fact remains that anyone is free to show data with Chaos doing better, I'm open to it but so far I have not seen anyone come up with the specific data to show as such. What we do see is that Imperium, Chaos and Xenos with Codex have been doing great. The real outliner could even be Orks who are doing well completely without Codex.

In the end the ideal is that Imperium, Chaos and Xenos all equally can compete in 8th's system and so far the Codex have lead that path. One thing that can be said for certain is that with Codex Daemons Chaos basically has all it's "expected Codex" barring Thousand Sons. So if GW isn't going to make more Legion related Codex then it's only logical to see more mixes and thus combine all the most potent aspects of this game under one army lists. 

If GW where to adress what some view as issues in this edition that's okay too but it would still lead to:
- A re-ruling of Character protection (for cheap ones should be able to excist and Smite becomming an half-one per turn makes cheap Psykers soon irrelevant).
- A reconsideration of certain unit sizes and costs (which Chapter Approved will continue to do)
- A reconsideration of certain Stratagem costs (which I hoped CA would do but didn't)
- A reconsideration of certain vehicle costs (which Chapter Approved will continue to do)

All in all though things arnt so bad for anyone. What I continue to hear is the ego of shock that armies who owned 7th edition arn't in the same positon anymore.

[Stross]

All in all though things arnt so bad for anyone.

 

Yeah, it is not, but it still looks like that they don't play actual games, while testing. There are something like 5-10 people. who writes rules, they don't have time for this. 

 

But something tells me, that there will be no releases for Chaos, except Daemons, Thousands sons and Death guard in this edition.

[Bulwyf]

I hope you are wrong. I think there's more than a good chance both World Eater's and Emperor's Children get their own codex to become sub factions just like DG and TS. Both Fulgrim and Angron are probably coming back as 40k models so having new models to go with them seems a reasonable assumption.

 

I personally would kill for 40k versions of Palatine Blades and Phoenix Guard terminators if we're never going to get rules to use the 30k units for 8th.

[Panzer]

EC and WE are pretty much a given. The question is when not if. GW already said they aim to keep releasing stuff so people don't have to wait for months between releases so depending on what else they plan to release inbetween we might see EC and/or WE rather soon even.

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

All in all though things arnt so bad for anyone.

 

Yeah, it is not, but it still looks like that they don't play actual games, while testing. There are something like 5-10 people. who writes rules, they don't have time for this. 

 

But something tells me, that there will be no releases for Chaos, except Daemons, Thousands sons and Death guard in this edition.

 

 

uhhh wut? No that is incorrect; fairly certain that it was Atia (last I checked 100% accuracy for rumors including calling out morty and Magnus before they were even revealed) had mentioned both Angron and Fulgrim were coming eventually. 

[Zodd1888]

8th Edition will be around for a couple years with the structure they've proposed for FAQ's and etc.

 

Chaos keyword was/is strongest due to abuse of the highly efficient models prior to CA. After CA and the beta rulea we'll see a shift. Every 6 months we're going to see a shift.

 

The Chapter Tactics podcast being referenced speaks very eloquently regarding this. The long and short is that we're seeing more play all around from nearly every faction. ITC players typically are competitive and therefore own/purchase competitive armies but with this edition we're seeing a better spread of faction variety.

 

Sure Chaos won some tournaments, sure AM is concerning as hordes are effecrive, sure Loyalists are having a little more difficulty mono-faction. Bottom line is soup/mixing of tactics is most effective no matter what faction you play.

[Stross]

Alright, even if they are going to come out, then we are again sticked with problem, that we have with Death Guard. Noise marines and even khorne berzerkers will be useless in another legion, until you get detachment of these guys for stratagems. If you are going to build mono army with them, you are going to do great. But as for "godless" legions, I don't know, if something will come out with this. And can it be used. 

[Commissar K.]

I hope you are wrong. I think there's more than a good chance both World Eater's and Emperor's Children get their own codex to become sub factions just like DG and TS. Both Fulgrim and Angron are probably coming back as 40k models so having new models to go with them seems a reasonable assumption.

 

I personally would kill for 40k versions of Palatine Blades and Phoenix Guard terminators if we're never going to get rules to use the 30k units for 8th.

Hope is good but its also not really based on what weve seen so far. Being that neither Sanguinius or Lion have suddenly returned with their respective Codex. Perhaps something in 2018 will change for them but I think it will be 2019 before anything like that is considered.

 

Frankly speaking every faction wants more, not all get it. With Codex Daemons so soon I think a Xenos updates should be prioritized and will be prioritized. GW has made no quantity of Codex release for next year so I think the pace will be tuned down. Good also, as many do like to keep up too.

 

But back to Imperium to Chaos; that balances each other out. Anyone is free to provide other info as long as its data and not just anyones guess.

 

Personally I like SM as much as CSM and just see mixed Chapters/Legions as the current strongest option for all.

[tastytaste]

Here is a link to updated numbers including all events from Nov.

 

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/12/19/top-itc-tournament-lists-november-2017/

I have not listened to that podcast, but keep in mind their data is taken from returned results to the ITC database, also many of those armies submissions actually insert the wrong Primary faction. 

When I compile my lists I actually go through each list to make sure they match what is submitted and often players/TOs put in the wrong Primary faction. Daemons vs. CSM vs. Renegades and Space Marines vs. IG vs. Imperium cause tons of confusion for submitting making whatever data ITC/FLG uses somewhat suspect. 

It is clear that Daemons + CSM are currently dominating, but to the degree FLG claims is harder to come by.

 

[Sonoftherubric21]

Its not hope at this point; more of a "timed guarantee" 

Chaos stuff is quite strong as a whole, I mean my black legion function well and carry themselves reliably. I love the way it functions and in a casual or even a semi-competitive meta 90% of the options out there function just fine. 

If you go up against the "top-top" tier lists that are super-points-effective and action-economy efficient then of course the selection is limited, but I dont see it as being "oh by choosing this tactic I give up 20-40% of my power!" .... no, not even.  Design the army correctly and thats far less of a concern. A proper "all comers" list wont generally have that issue, but you may not use every ability (example; abbadons warlord trait.....) I may not get it every game, but if the list is well designed it certainly wont swing the battle as a "loss" when I fight a bloody xenos or chaos list! 

 

I mean considering the effectiveness of Chaos Troop marines in a Black Legion list I see no issue with it, it makes them pretty dang good with high effectiveness for relative low cost. I mean one of the winning lists in the New England circuit I read about was in fact a black legion list; abbadon anchored the lists so you've got 80+ marines that you need to legitimately "kill" before they go anywhere.  Was a hell of  a list. 

[Commissar K.]

Its not hope at this point; more of a "timed guarantee" 

 

Chaos stuff is quite strong as a whole, I mean my black legion function well and carry themselves reliably. I love the way it functions and in a casual or even a semi-competitive meta 90% of the options out there function just fine. 

 

If you go up against the "top-top" tier lists that are super-points-effective and action-economy efficient then of course the selection is limited, but I dont see it as being "oh by choosing this tactic I give up 20-40% of my power!" .... no, not even.  Design the army correctly and thats far less of a concern. A proper "all comers" list wont generally have that issue, but you may not use every ability (example; abbadons warlord trait.....) I may not get it every game, but if the list is well designed it certainly wont swing the battle as a "loss" when I fight a bloody xenos or chaos list! 

 

I mean considering the effectiveness of Chaos Troop marines in a Black Legion list I see no issue with it, it makes them pretty dang good with high effectiveness for relative low cost. I mean one of the winning lists in the New England circuit I read about was in fact a black legion list; abbadon anchored the lists so you've got 80+ marines that you need to legitimately "kill" before they go anywhere.  Was a hell of  a list. 

Timed guarantee is not really what I can say about the Berzerkers Ive got who are now close to being 20 years old and still are the same models that are on the GW shelves.

 

Other than that I do agree with the allround viability of many 40K armies right now. It isn't that far and in between. Especially not if the key problematic units are either increased in costs or limited in any other way. 

 

Here is a link to updated numbers including all events from Nov.

 

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/12/19/top-itc-tournament-lists-november-2017/

I have not listened to that podcast, but keep in mind their data is taken from returned results to the ITC database, also many of those armies submissions actually insert the wrong Primary faction. 

 

When I compile my lists I actually go through each list to make sure they match what is submitted and often players/TOs put in the wrong Primary faction. Daemons vs. CSM vs. Renegades and Space Marines vs. IG vs. Imperium cause tons of confusion for submitting making whatever data ITC/FLG uses somewhat suspect. 

 

It is clear that Daemons + CSM are currently dominating, but to the degree FLG claims is harder to come by.

Yep and it still leads to this outcome:

 

 

 

• 20 Astra Militarum
• 17 Chaos Space Marines
• 16 Ultramarines
• 16 Daemons
• 16 Ynnari
• 7 Orks
• 4 Space Marines
• 4 T’au Empire
• 4 Grey Knights
• 3 Officio Assassinorum
• 3 Blood Angels
• 3 Sisters of Battle
• 3 Death Guard
• 2 Genestealer Cults
• 2 Imperial Knights
• 2 Renegade Knights
• 2 Adeptus Mechanicus
• 2 Tyranids
• 1 Space Wolves
• 1 Adeptus Custodes
• 1 Dark Angels

This still adds up to the following top 3 apperances by "faction", faction is based on largest quantity of X type models taken within list:

CSM: 17 + 3 = 20 

SM: 16 + 4 + 3 +1 +1 = 25

 

This is counting Deathguard towards Chaos Space Marines and counting all Space Marines from the same Codex towards Space Marines. Now if we're to include Daemon lists who include some choices of CSM things become way blurry again as it's akin to counting some Astra Militarum and Grey Knight armies to Space Marines.

 

It's really up to anyone to make whichever result. But the fact remains:

- Add up Imperium, Imperium is still in the lead.

- Add up (largely) Space Marines Codex based armies, then they are still in the lead of (largely) Chaos Space Marines Codex based armies.

 

If were going to combine all Daemons and Chaos Marines based lists together, then yes, Chaos is doing wonderful but still not as wonderful as the combination of all Imperium Codex .

Links to the actual lists are also in the link I posted above. So anyone is free to come to the same conclusion. Link: http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/

 

Now it's up to anyone to hype up Chaos, we havn't been as relevant since 3rd, but to say we are the strongest is still something data doesn't show. It can eventually, though with the grat Blood Angel and Dark Angel Codex and fans that should play it I think it's very save to say that Imperium will be in the lead. Which then might slowly equalize again when Codex Chaos Daemons is a hit. 

 

Lastly I'm also not that suprised by this mixed blurr outcome. Much was the same with AoS GH2016 too. Order was in the lead, Chaos followed and Destruction and Death made their appearances from time to time as the smaller but still potent armies that where less of a mix as Order and Chaos where.

 

8th so far has followed pretty much the same path. Imperium is in the lead, Chaos follows nicely and Xenos makes it's appearances. Indeed Xenos can blend less, or better put have less model depth and/or width but at the same time usually come out of the corner with stronger faction specific rules.

 

Cheers,

Edited December 21, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Ishagu]

So you're not including soups because...?

 

Chaos has performed better overall, and when you consider they have less players it shows their strength even more so.

[Commissar K.]

So you're not including soups because...?

 

Chaos has performed better overall, and when you consider they have less players it shows their strength even more so.

 

Because you wanted a Codex SM vs Codex CSM comparison.

If we're going to include soups that's fine by me, Imperium soup still wins out.

 

Chaos has preformed better overall than 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th edition, nobody is disputing that. 

Based on actual data it still doesn't make CSM the 'strongest army' of 8th however.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Ishagu]

Per player numbers, Chaos in one form or another have won the most events. Also the Blood of Kittens data is ignoring the Soup lists of which Chaos are indeed the strongest - the guys who collect the data literally said there is no contest. Chaos Marines are typically the most prevailing element in said soups.

 

Astra Militarum as I said are potentially the strongest singular codex but they have been fiercely nerfed in the last month.

 

You can chose to make excuses if you feel you aren't performing well, but perhaps you suffer from lack of ability or self imposed restrictions?

Edited December 21, 2017 by Ishagu

[Commissar K.]

Again if you dont provide data to prove the claim CSM has won the most why shift it to Chaos again? Better put AM has been nerfed but far from extremes. Now BA and DA are out its a massive melee and ranged boost for SM aswell.

 

Im preforming well with Chaos Space Marines but thats beside the point. Data of larger tournaments is what proves a competitive point, opinions on X or Y, podcast or personal are subjective.

 

Fact is, Imperium outpreforms Chaos, Chaos is doing well but still objectively second to SM or Imperium. Comming to the same point that there is no indication that Chaos is the strongest.

 

If 8th is designed well there also will not be a clear indication or massive difference in results either.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Ishagu]

The guys who collated the data outright state they are the most successful faction. Listen to the podcast

[Commissar K.]

The guys who collated the data outright state they are the most successful faction. Listen to the podcast

The guys with which data?

 

What I hear in the introduction of the podcast is that the initial creator states that he wants to know what the community thinks, then follows up twice by admitting he is biased and thinks Chaos is currently the strongest faction. So far that's all opinion. Subjective information. Next to that more conversations about the possible best faction is added to the podcast. 

 

Now if you would look into their own data (from Frontline Gaming) it even states the following:

 

 

Out of 7,187 recorded 8th ed games in the ITC:

• The general best performers in regards to top place finishes in events so far in 8th ed have been:
  • Chaos Space Marines
  • Astra Militarum
  • Adeptus Astartes (=Space Marines)

Based on this it's correct to say for ITC:

- Imperium preforms better as Chaos. Astra Militarium is still part of Imperium  

- Chaos Space Marines don't do significantly worse or better as Space Marines and vice versa.

Source: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/12/20/signals-from-the-frontline-574/

What I see is that you refuse to come up with any data to back your own claim whilst even the data from the Frontline gaming doesn't show you Chaos Space Marines are the current strongest faction, not by top 3 GT appearance and not by average of ITC points. Perhaps look into it more and come to the same conclusion. 

 

Now again if you want to make some comparisons with Chaos-wide (including CSM, Daemons, Renegades) versus Space Marines (including only Space Marines from Codex Space Marines and still excluding Guilliman? Are we excluding Codex Blood Angels and Dark Angels? You tell me) then yes "the Chaos" is doing better as single GW model bound Codex.

But again how does this come as a suprise? The more Stratagem acces you have the higher quantity of great Stratagems you can use the more likely you are capable of skewing a game in your favour. Do you want Codex Space Marines to cover the same ammount of choices that essentially two Codexes do? 

 

To awnser the initial question as to why we are hyped as such is because Chaos Space Marines havn't been able to have any consistent competative appearance since 3rd edition. What my guess is as to why players are suprised about this is because they finally come to realize how well balanced 8th edition is compaired to several of it's previous editions.

In this case it seemfully favours Chaos because it has been a competitive no-show for many years. 

 

What is objectively the "strongest" is:

- Having acces to very potent characters for cost (including Smite spam by cheap Psykers)

- Having acces to very potent infantry for cost (formerly including too cheap Conscripts and Stratagem availability for units like 10 Terminators with Combi Plasmas)

- Having acces to very potent vehicles for cost (formerly including Razorbacks)

 

Currently many to all factions have acces to all of the above but have to become a soup to do so. It's both incorrect to assume only Chaos can create this soup and assume Chaos Space Marines has so far been the strongest faction and will continue to do so based on actual Codex/Imperial Armour acces and tournament data. 

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2017 by Commissar K.