Why are we being hyped as ‚strongest army‘?

[Ishagu]

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/12/20/signals-from-the-frontline-574/

 

Chaos perform far better than Imperium or anyone else. Top 4 factions are all Chaos in one form or another.

 

In fact a Mono codex Chaos Marine list is only marginally worse than Imperial Soup :-P

Edited December 21, 2017 by Ishagu

[DuskRaider]

 

 

So you're not including soups because...?

 

Chaos has performed better overall, and when you consider they have less players it shows their strength even more so.

Because you wanted a Codex SM vs Codex CSM comparison.

If we're going to include soups that's fine by me, Imperium soup still wins out.

 

Chaos has preformed better overall than 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th edition, nobody is disputing that.

Based on actual data it still doesn't make CSM the 'strongest army' of 8th however.

He'll keep flip flopping until you give up.

[Commissar K.]

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/12/20/signals-from-the-frontline-574/

 

Chaos perform far better than Imperium or anyone else. Top 4 factions are all Chaos in one form or another.

 

In fact a Mono codex Chaos Marine list is only marginally worse than Imperial Soup :-P

 

You believe information from October leads to the future of Chaos being the strongest? That is quite frankly hilarious and again you don't even look into the source which you are linking.

 

If you read the following:

 

 

 

• Average ITC points earned by faction. So, bear in mind, some of these are outliers as they haven’t been played enough times for a significant amount of data.

You would know even ITC states that it's not sufficient data. In addition to that, what do you feel is the worth of an average score per faction?

 

Now if you would look into it, you can even find the competitive rankings of said factions. Why is this important? Because it shows you how competitive a faction actual is instead of thaking a medium that A. is not suffidicent and B. does not thake into account the quantity of said played faction. One high ranking Ork player skews the perception of the average if he is the only Ork player from those 4 events. Ranking (based on the 4 ITC events, which is an insignifcant ammount of events compaired by GT data we have):

 

Astra Militarum

1 Brandon Grant 553.11 4 of 4 2 Andrew Gonyo 546.44 4 of 4 3 Tony Grippando 456.45 4 of 4

 

 

Space Marines

 

1 Trent Northington 507.84 4 of 4 2 Joshua Brodie 444.99 4 of 4 3 Thomas Hegstrom Oakey 429.96 4 of 4

 

Chaos Space Marines

 

1 Matt Root 509.19 4 of 4 2 Kieren Howard 466.58 4 of 4 3 Mark Perry 459.97 4 of 4

 

 

What this data basically shows you is that AM is in the lead based on points in 4 ITC events, CSM is second and very closeby is SM. Is there a significant difference? 

Again, no, there is not. What this is is data based on 4 single-player events. Quite frankly though what makes this data quite insignificant by it all is the quantity of events and measurements that are taken which cannot be verified in any way.

 

Now if we look at the data that is from November, including ITC AND GT you would end up with the following for AM, SM and CSM:

 

 

 

• 20 Astra Militarum
• 17 Chaos Space Marines
• 16 Ultramarines
• 4 Space Marines
• 3 Blood Angels
• 3 Death Guard
• 1 Space Wolves
• 1 Adeptus Custodes
• 1 Dark Angels

Source: http://bloodofkitten...ist-compendium/

 

What this tells you again is:

- AM is strongest showing

- SM follows as second strongest showing

- CSM follows as third strongest showing

 

Top 3 is a very clear composition and CSM is not on top. Is a cost increase to conscripts enough to state that CSM will now be the top? No it isn't because Codex DA and BA again support SM into being stronger competitively speaking. Chaos Daemons follows next year and might be pushing Chaos as the strongest but without any knowledge of unit compositon and Stratagems it's too early to state any form of impact. 

 

If for whatever reason you want to exclude certain Space Marine related Codex feel free to subdevide the Chaos Space Marines lists in Legions aswell. 

I hope you understand the data, if you have any questions about the links you post feel free to PM or discuss them in this topic.

 

Cheers,

Edited December 21, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Ishagu]

So you're saying Chaos Space Marines aren't the most successful faction when they've featured in the most winning and high scoring lists? Interesting :-P

 

This might change in future.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Ishagu

[Commissar K.]

So you're saying Chaos Space Marines aren't the most successful faction when they've featured in the most winning and high scoring lists? Interesting :-P

 

This might change in future.

If you can't read data good luck with the upcomming next 10K nonsense posts.

 

Have a nice day. 

[1000 Sons]

Not sure where this discussion is going, everyone seems to be saying the same thing differently. Chaos soup is doing very well, and probably our strongest style to play. Mono-csm, or death guard are in a solid spot. Thousand Sons (which I play alot) are still good and will only get better with codex.

[DuskRaider]

At first it was an argument of whether Codex: Chaos Space Marines is more powerful than Codex: Space Marines and no one was allowed to bring up soup lists because this goes against the Loyalist whinge narrative. There was a but of conceeding that CSM is more powerful than SM, but only by a slim margin. Now Loyalist players are bringing up soup lists because... I don't know, they like being hypocritical.

[Ishagu]

Chaos is better in both soups and mono codex builds. That's what I'm pointing out

[CornishMike]

All this is moot anyway... 3 popular codices have dropped since this data was collected, and another one is dropping in a few weeks...  One of those 4 is chaos...  Then another 3 drop in the next 3 months, if we're lucky one will be chaos...

 

2 beta test rules have just been released which will change things again...

 

I dont think there's any value to any of this data until all codex are out and we have another chapter approved to rebalance the job lot...

[Bulwyf]

I can't speak for anyone else but I *only* run mono lists. My DG are all DG, my NL are all NL, my EC are all EC, my Space Wolves are all SW. You can only play for yourself and what this guy likes is fluffy armies. Not soup lists that make no sense whatsoever from a fluff perspective.

[DuskRaider]

Chaos is better in both soups and mono codex builds. That's what I'm pointing out

No it's not, Imperial players have more options which work together much better. You're being dishonest now.

[Scammel]

Lord knows why so many people here are upset. Ishagu's clearly demonstrated that competitive Chaos lists are, at a bare minimum, in contention for the strongest lists in the game at the moment. No-one's going to think any less of you​ because of it.

[DuskRaider]

The real question is why is it a problem in the first place? Why are folks' panties in a bunch because Codex: Space Marines is no longer superior to Chaos Space Marines?

[Panzer]

Lord knows why so many people here are upset. Ishagu's clearly demonstrated that competitive Chaos lists are, at a bare minimum, in contention for the strongest lists in the game at the moment. No-one's going to think any less of you​ because of it.

I don't think anyone is upset here?

[DuskRaider]

I'm more at a loss of why it's even an issue. Yeah sure, Chaos is actually powerful now. It's been since 3.5 that we've really been able to claim that with the exception of one dimensional Heldrake spam. Chaos can be a challenge with a variety of units, that's awesome.

 

In any case, the majority of the lists that are powerful fly in the face of established lore and it's all for competition so if you play that way, you should expect it from every army... they're all gamey.

[Commissar K.]

Lord knows why so many people here are upset. Ishagu's clearly demonstrated that competitive Chaos lists are, at a bare minimum, in contention for the strongest lists in the game at the moment. No-one's going to think any less of you​ because of it.

So we are comparing contents of Codex CSM with Index Chaos and IA to one Codex SM and act as if things are unbalamced?

 

Im not upset just not a fan of outright shifting the subject from CSM vs SM to Chaos vs SM and refuse to understand that Imperium vs Chaos still objectively shows a lead.

 

So what is fact is that CSM lists arnt the strongest in the game because AM are both in the lead at ITC points and ITC and GT combined. This is confirmed by both Frontline gamings ITC results and BoK ITC+GT results.

 

The conscript cost increase doesnt remove this fact nor does Codex BA or DA.

 

If we are going with CA results there will be no significant data any time soon ;)

 

So nobody actually is displaying CSM lists to be the strongest. They are in the top 3. With SM and AM.

[Panzer]

However. Partially because many high ranking lists got listed as CSM while actually being Chaos soup. Same goes for the loyalist side (maybe not as much there tho).

 

Imo we don't really have the data to say the one or the other since the data posted on the internet doesn't get collected properly at the moment so this whole discussion is moot.

IF we talk about CSM vs SM only without any soup lists, I'd say SM+Guilliman >= CSM > SM without Guilliman.

[Stross]

CSM > SM without Guilliman.

 

 

I disagree. 

SM have: 

1. Strong flyers (all hit on 3+ without penalty and -1 to hit)

2. Ancients, Lietants, Capellan's with jump puck or any other options, many heroes, giving full rerolls (not only Guilliman), while Chaos have only Abaddon. 

3. A lot more vehicles for different tactics. 

4. Primaris guys (yes, they are expensive, but they are good option)

5. Space Wolfes (they are not weak)

6. DA (soon they probably will get the returning of Lion and their plasma stratagem and Azrail are great). 

And many other things. 

I would like to hear what especially Chaos Space Marines (without Daemons, Death Guard and Thousands sons) have not only for counterpart, but about equally strong units in CSM lists. Or why SM units are weak compare to CSM. 

I don't speak about Stratagem, ability to get them and stuff like that. I agree, they are strong as well as psycic powers. But I must tell, that these powers are true gambling and it prove my early statement, that CSM depends on luck more, than Space marines. 

And, by the way, CSM have a lot more chances to kill Guilliman, than most of the factions. Death hex, Mortal wounds and other stuff. Only Eldar probably will be better at this. Or homunculus of Dark Eldar. 

Guilliman is broken a bit by himself, but I disagree, that without him SM is not competative. 

I can agree, that if you take brimstouns and other daemons for smite spam or some death guard with poxwalkers or something in between or mix of them, then they can deal with SM. But again, it is only a few tactics and if I want to refuse to use such dirt, I will lose more than 40 percent of effectivnes. Which is not right. If you take dark reapers from Eldar, they are not going to become uncompetative army all the sudden. Take boys away from orks and they still able to do something. 

Can't say the same without Tau with their commander-dron spam or necrons with their Destroyers, but I know only a few factions, who is going to lost their essense if anyone hesitate to take some units. It is Genestealers Cults, if they refuse to take genestealers. It is Sister of Battle if they don't take Selestine. It is Dark Eldars without Scourges or Ravager (but it is speculative). 

Other armies have good variety and if you don't take some units/traits/psypowers/relic/warlord traits you can perform well. In case of CSM you will lose 40 percent of effectivness at least. 

Astra Militarum (Valhalla Concripts, Shadowsword, Salamander Command Vehicle, Trojan, Catachan Artillery, Harker, Yarric, Kurov Aquilla and Grand Strategists), Eldar (Dark Reapers) and SM (too many things) will lose from 10 to maximum 30 percents of their effectivness if they don't take something from "always play" type of units.

[norngahl]

Guys, he is trolling so hard only the UM thong is missing.

 

Personally I have not won a game against AM yet. They are shooting me off the board every time I face them. Leaving combat and shooting the enemy unit without any loss is so dumb, it's not even funny anymore. Throw bodies at anything and block deepstrikers by bubble wrap. Disengage, shoot, disengage, shoot. 9" deepstriking hurts a lot in this edition. If you bubble wrap your deadly Stuff and have enough units immune to moral or a :cussload of 10 men throwaway units you are done. Just make sure you will leave enough space for the falling back moves.

 

Really, only thing to Do against such a trap and shoot army is going for objectives. Still haven't managed it yet.

[Ishagu]

I know this is getting tired, but seriously, are you using enough terrain!?

[Scammel]

Eh, I remember how daft and asinine these top-tier discussions were back when CSM were bottom of the pile; the minor disparities between first and second place were irrelevant in the face of much wider, more serious balancing issues. Several people are clearly upset at being potentially tarnished with the That Taudar Player brush, and it strikes me that the best solution is acknowledge the top-tier competitive capabilities of the faction and to just stay away from those lists.

 

This bizarre inverse organ-measuring contest where we desperately try to argue that the Imperium's toys are 1% shinier than ours must be the most irritating thing in the world to read for other factions that don't have any shiny toys at all.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Scammel

[Iron_Within]

So I dunno. We might be able to make horrible combos but for me the army feels weak. This is because of two reasons

1) I play iron warrior's and so don't take advantage of the cheesier potions

2) my meta is largely (80-90%) Astra Militarum, to the Games come down to who gets first turn

[Panzer]

5. Space Wolfes (they are not weak)

6. DA (soon they probably will get the returning of Lion and their plasma stratagem and Azrail are great). 

 

Not sure why you even list these? They aren't part of the SM Codex the same way Death Guard and TSons aren't part of the CSM Codex. I explicitly said without soup.

[Subtle Discord]

Wow. Just... wow. Some of you take this game waaay too seriously. This was an interesting discussion until the replies started to become thesis level dissertations with attempts at statistical analysis in order to back certain points of view. And this is coming from a guy who is long-winded and known for creating massive walls-o'-text. Well done?  No matter how you present it, people do understand that there's a point where you have to accept that odds are very slim that you're going to sway the opinion of the other party you're debating, right? But, I guess there are far worse things you could be debating with such passion, in that light I guess... carry on.

[Commissar K.]

 

5. Space Wolfes (they are not weak)

6. DA (soon they probably will get the returning of Lion and their plasma stratagem and Azrail are great). 

Not sure why you even list these? They aren't part of the SM Codex the same way Death Guard and TSons aren't part of the CSM Codex. I explicitly said without soup.

 

They are probably listed because every Legion is put under the same Codex Chaos Space Marine banner for the same reason.

 

If you look into the BoK lists (actual lists) you'll find that only 1 out of the 17 competitive top 3 ICT/GT lists contains only choices from Chaos Space Marine Codex.

If you look into the several Space Marine lists, Ultramarine, Raven Guard and all you'll also see that only 2 out of 20 them actually use only choices from Space Marine Codex.

 

The point remains, the fast mayority of both Chaos and Imperium lists are soups because that's the only objective thing we can state. Oh and yes, we can also state that so far Astra Militarum has been the strongest faction of all, some of these lists also included Space Marines. AM has the strongest results in top 3 showings and ITC score post Chapter Approved. 

 

What makes up the strenght of these lists for pretty much all are assassins, cheap chaff infantry (Cultists and Conscripts), cheap psykers (Malific Lords) and/or cheap vehicle (Razorbacks) choices. All scorings of SM and CSM have been extremely compairable.AM is the outliner. What the effect is of Chapter Approved is thus far unknown.