C: Space Marine and the lack of a ‘Push’ Unit

[Schlitzaf]

Allies aside, I see people often mentioning the various things our Codex is found lacking. When I stopped to think about what that could be beside chaff.* This isn’t say our lack of chaff is good a thing and not it’s a detriment in our army. But Scouts do enable us to slow down or blunt a T1 Alpha Strike.

 

The biggest thing I believe we are lacking in our Codex is a push unit. Our options are Vangaurd/Terminators and Characters. Instead we are essentially reliant on shooting. One of the best usage of Melee is to control enemy movement and claim an objective. Shooting you cannot do that except by threatening a full squad wipe.

 

Maybe I’m completely off base here, but the specific strategems I see praised v by other Codexes are ones that help ‘push’. Or in the case of shooting give a bit more damage required for the squad wipe. And in part why Gulliman and Celestine are so often used in Marine Armies by providing a raw melee potential (and super Aura for Gulliman), that otherwise just lack. What does everyone else think?

 

*(Which I stand by personally that should be every power armor army innate weakness. We lack ‘staying’ power for attrition warfare).

[9x19 Parabellum]

I'm interested in your theory. What *exactly* do you mean by "push" unit? How do you define it?

[Volt]

Allies aside, I see people often mentioning the various things our Codex is found lacking. When I stopped to think about what that could be beside chaff.* This isn’t say our lack of chaff is good a thing and not it’s a detriment in our army. But Scouts do enable us to slow down or blunt a T1 Alpha Strike.

 

The biggest thing I believe we are lacking in our Codex is a push unit. Our options are Vangaurd/Terminators and Characters. Instead we are essentially reliant on shooting. One of the best usage of Melee is to control enemy movement and claim an objective. Shooting you cannot do that except by threatening a full squad wipe.

 

Maybe I’m completely off base here, but the specific strategems I see praised v by other Codexes are ones that help ‘push’. Or in the case of shooting give a bit more damage required for the squad wipe. And in part why Gulliman and Celestine are so often used in Marine Armies by providing a raw melee potential (and super Aura for Gulliman), that otherwise just lack. What does everyone else think?

 

*(Which I stand by personally that should be every power armor army innate weakness. We lack ‘staying’ power for attrition warfare).

Really? Space Marines lack a push unit? That's basically the job of Ironclad Dreadnoughts, and other melee focused dreads like Venerables and the new Redemptor. They burst in, put some shots in while advancing, and then utterly clobber some unfortunate sod in melee.

[The Unseen]

Dreadnoughts, Terminators hitching a ride in Land Raiders/Ravens/Storm Eagles, Assault Centurions, and Vanguard Vets can all absolutely punish people that don't respect them and move away.

 

Most marine units are shooty, a few are choppy.

If you don't want to play a mostly midfield shooting army with some decent long ranged and melee support units, you probably don't want to play vanilla space marines.

[redmapa]

Vanilla codex isnt a melee book, most tools within it are there to boost a shooty chapter and almost all chapter tactics are also catering towards a midfield firing squads as opposed to a melee army. With that in mind I think that the melee units within the codex are fine for it, they are not bad but do not excel at it, there is no unit thats particularly good but most can certainly pack a punch if applied and supported properly.

 

Now because I play Black Templars I do agree with you, there is no big nasty melee unit and against other melee armies the codex crumbles if you play that game, I hate it because I have to put shooty units to excel rather than be a melee army because the codex is not a melee codex. Being a melee army in a shooty codex is awful, but maybe thats just me.

[LucidNinja]

So CA gave the dreadnought drop pod a points drop, a redemptor on your back door is a nice little push

[Frater Cornelius]

Melee can not replace shooting, but it can supplement it. Very few armies can make good use of melee units. I believe that SM melee is among the more realistic, given a far future war scenario. Advancing units need to be able to shoot and defend themselves in melee. This is what Dreadnoughts do. They are big blocks of steel coming your way. Avoid them, they shoot. Charge them, they punch you. Attack them? They endure.

 

Besides, no SM unit is a slouch in melee. Sergeants can get weapons and shooty Primaris have as many attacks in melee as some dedicated melee units. I think it is less about herding the opponent with melee units as SW or BA would do it, but instead influence their positioning with your own, given the different ranges of your guns as well as mobility tools like deep striking. For example, you can deploy further to the right and deep strike powerful harassment units to the left. Either your opponent gives up the left or he spreads thin. Inceptors come to mind.

 

If I aggressively seek close combat, then it is to prevent shooting, gain extra distance or try to finish off a unit. This is a tactical application, not destructive. If you seek destructive melee, then SM will not provide it. Only a few select units are good in CC, but even those tend to have shooting options as well. It is all about multi-tasking in C:SM

Edited December 5, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Ishagu]

Thing is, Blood Angels can be built as a gunline as effective in offense as pretty much anything the Vanilla book has. Could spam Predators, a Fire Raptor, re roll all hits, bring in a few Lieutenants etc.

 

They can also combine this with a turn 1 alpha strike charge to distract an opponent or shatter their screen.

 

You know what the Marines need? Different kinds of Auras.

Imagine if a certain HQ bolstered movement speed and charge ranges, or allowed redeployment, etc etc.

 

There are so many mechanics that could be manipulated but they are split across different chapters so each one is limited in how it operates. It's why Chaos are so strong - they are more flexible.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Ishagu

[SydonianDragoon404]

Should be what the Chaplain does IMO, nobody takes them right now anyway. 

 

Redmapa, I am 100% with you brother. Fellow BT player and I struggle to try and add in a melee element to my lists because nothing seems like a reasonable choice when at most we're getting 2 attacks unless we take double lightning claws or chain swords. 

 

I want to feel good about taking Vanguard Vets, but again, 2 attacks per guy is just not a whole lot when you take the strength of our power weapons into account. I just don't feel good about taking them, especially when you price them with jump packs. 

 

I want to take Assault Terminators, but every time I think about doing it, I remember the time they got annihilated 3 death guard psykers smiting and using other powers/abilities to just mortal wound them to death with ease and it triggers me. 

Then theres company veterans, which can be cool but again only 2 attacks and they can only be taken in a max squad of 5. Not a great target for our overcosted "swing again at the end of the fight phase" stratagem. Same could be said for Honor Guard, max squad 2 is freaking lame. 

 

What does that leave us with?? 

 

If I was playing Blood Angels I would just take death company and call it good, they're a great example of a SM melee unit. What the hell even do Blood Angel players not get that we do? They got the special terminators, they got the flyers and the AA tanks, what's their detriment besides not having Guilliman? 

 

I would be tempted to just use BA rules if I wasn't going to miss my 4+ abhor the witch. It's saved my bacon more than a dozen times now. Crusader squads aren't bad either, being able to take a special, combi, and heavy at 5 men is pretty nice, and of course the Emps Champ can contend far above his weight against Characters and Monsters. 

 

I just can't feel good about our current choices for melee infantry units. 2 attacks just is not enough. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by SydonianDragoon404

[Schlitzaf]

A Push Unit is a Unit that can get stuck in and claim a point on the battlefield by pushing enemy units off or away. Melee is the easiest way to do so by forcing fallback or otherwise. A push unit is a classic deathstar or hammer. They are tough durable and killy. However points limit them to one. A BALANCED Version of a classic push is late (competitive) is 5th Ed Hammerators and Nob Bikers. However units like Grey Hunters and Crusader Squads can be as well. It’s in otherwords.

 

Raven example is a good one but I dunno, it feels more like a 7th Star then an 5th Ed Style Pusher or Hammer Unit. Also dreads are too slow for the task in general

 

A way to dislodge an entrenched enemy.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Blindhamster]

 

 

What the hell even do Blood Angel players not get that we do? They got the special terminators, they got the flyers and the AA tanks, what's their detriment besides not having Guilliman? 

 

 

 

Specifically?

• souped up super champion super cheap melee character (emperors champion)
• melee orientated troop choice (crusader squad)
• Chapter Champion
• Honour Guard
• Ironclad Dreadnought
• Venerable Dreadnought
• Centurion Assault Squad
• Centurion Devastator Squad
• Thunderfire Cannon

 

And obviously, we then get various things instead, if they are "fair" trades or not is down to opinion mostly.

• Furioso Dreadnought
• Death Company Dreadnought
• Death Company
• Sanguinary Guard
• Sanguinary Ancient
• Sanguinary Priest
• Terminator Ancient
• Baal Predator

so BA have 8 unique units (4 are characters, 2 are units, 2 are dreadnoughts), marines have 7 generic unique units  (1 is a character, 3 are units, 2 are dreadnoughts and 1 artillery), ultra marines have about the same number of special characters as BA, but one is a primarch! BT have fewer special characters, but do get the amazing emperors champion and the very very good troop choice of crusader squads.

 

BA are of course a better melee army, as their armywide special rule is designed to make just about everything better in melee, their main strength beyond that is mobility as most of the stratagems are centered around moving quicker and getting into combat. Space wolves will no doubt be an even better melee army in many ways, because their base units are better suited to melee than just about everything any other marine army has (crusader squads are better than grey hunters though).

 

p.s. reivers have three attacks each and are pretty durable and cheap. Also, Sanguinary Guard only have 2 attacks each as well, Death Company have 3 (if using a chainsword, 4 if they charge)

Edited December 5, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Schlitzaf]

Hamster forgot to add

-Cenobytess for Black Templars

6 Points for 12” Morale Immunity goodness

[SydonianDragoon404]

I don't rate Crusaders as a melee unit personally. I don't really understand some people think they are. Oh man I trade my 2 bolter attacks for 2 chainsword attacks. Devastating. 

 

Yes the Sword Brother can take power weapons, again 2 attacks. You can take another special weapon but that's only 1 attack. I don't know about Grey Hunters, Crusaders are a good all-rounder unit but not a dedicated CC unit. 

 

Also, Reivers are definitely not cheap, and they do not have 3 attacks each. They have two, and their weapon give you an additional attack IIRC. Those attacks are all strength 4 AP nothing. You can get that elsewhere in spades. Reivers for what they do aren't that Cheap IMO, you purchase their delivery system and they get even more expensive. You might as well take intercessors and you'll get -1 on the bolt rifle and 3 power sword attacks. 

 

Death company are perfect. +1 attack on the charge bringing them to three attacks on a power weapon, 4 on a chain sword or pair of LCs. That extra attack adds up as the squad gets larger, and then you add in that +1 to wound buff and you're looking at a worthwhile CC unit can just tear stuff up. Add in their ignoring wounds on a 6+ or a 5+ (can't remember which it is) and they can be absolutely vicious. 

Same thought can be applied to wulfen for different reasons. 

 

Edit: I don't really rate the Cenobytes or their buffs. Marines re-roll failed morale anyways and often squads are small enough for their casualties to not matter for morale. 

 

Edit 2: What about Vanguard Veterans with twin lightning claws, in a Rhino, with Helbrecht near by? Squad of 6 or 7. Only way to get more than 2 attacks really. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by SydonianDragoon404

[Blindhamster]

Fyi, death company cannot take lightning claws.

 

And I know the reivers only have 2 attacks on profile, but id always take them with swords honestly.

 

 

The bonus so by your logic, DC have 2 attacks. They cannot guarantee the charge without spending command points and purchasing a character. I do concur that they have good weapon options, but the view a lot of us over on the BA forum are forming is that often the vanguard will be better.

 

Also, 18 points for a model with 2 wounds, a leadership debuff ability, 3 attacks (assuming combat blade, id take intercessors for a shooty unit), and grenades that make them harder to hit and ignore overwatch is a decent purchase.

 

Their issue is definitely that they lack any kind of AP, a simple -1 as mentioned on the other thread and they'd be golden. Then for delivery, depends on list, having them in a repulsor is totally viable and provides a nice amount of firepower but is expensive, I personally like the grapnels as I play on a lot of city terrain, and they shine there.

 

Edit

 

The ignore morale ability of the servitors is useful on those large crusader squads...

 

Also, everything went down in attacks across the game (nobody gets extra for 2 weapons anymore, you have to have one of the bog standard worse ones instead, nobody gets extra for charging bar DC). Crusader models are a cheap way to get a relatively good number of attacks this edition. Vanguard is where you go for large amounts of attacks (dual chainsword)

Edited December 5, 2017 by Blindhamster

[SydonianDragoon404]

I guess what I'm missing is that I just don't understand why strength 4 ap nothing attacks are so valued in an assault unit. Sure you're going to blender a squad of termagants, or you can overwhelm a 5 man squad of marines. Are you going to put any kind of dent into Plague Marines? Anything that tougher that T4 with a decent save? No, probably not. 

Its like we have two choices: lots and lots of strength 4 AP nothing attacks, or 2 attacks of anything else. Those 2 attacks might as well be with something nasty I suppose, might as well take a powerfist if all you're going to get is a max of 2 unless you take a pair of lightning claws. 

 

Lightning claws... I gotta try it...

[9x19 Parabellum]

I guess what I'm missing is that I just don't understand why strength 4 ap nothing attacks are so valued in an assault unit. Sure you're going to blender a squad of termagants, or you can overwhelm a 5 man squad of marines. Are you going to put any kind of dent into Plague Marines? Anything that tougher that T4 with a decent save? No, probably not. 

 

Its like we have two choices: lots and lots of strength 4 AP nothing attacks, or 2 attacks of anything else. Those 2 attacks might as well be with something nasty I suppose, might as well take a powerfist if all you're going to get is a max of 2 unless you take a pair of lightning claws. 

 

Lightning claws... I gotta try it...

 

My raven guard lightning claws have been working great.  The re-roll of wounds mitigates the Str 4 problem and the -2 AP is enough to start really landing a majority of wounds on anything MEQ or worse.  With 3 attacks each (4 on the sgt.) you get decent volume too.

I ran 8 of them in a 1k pt game this last weekend.  6 with dual lightning claws, and 2 with stormshield and stormbolters to tank big hits.  They ate up a unit of Occult Scarab Termies over a couple rounds, then went on to take out the last 3 Thousand Sons marines from a unit that had suffered shooting casualties, and put a couple wounds on Ahriman before dying.  I struck from the shadows with them, obvioulsy you won't have that as Black Templar, but with your charge reroll I still think there is a decent chance to get them in combat from a turn 1 deepstrike.

Edited December 5, 2017 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Blindhamster]

yep, vanguard vets is where its at for melee marines, they are very versatile in loadout options.

as an aside, lets quickly math hammer an average reiver squad (10 models, all with combat blades, and either grapnels or grav chutes) vs an average plague marine squad (I've assumed 9 models, champion has plague sword, 2 models have flails as they have the best damage potential vs primaris and 2 models have bubotic axes) I actually feel the plague marine squad is probably a bit unrealistic in that its VERY melee orientated, but still. Lets see how it would pan out? plague marines are 202 points vs the reivers 200.

I'm going to assume the reivers got the charge off, they're faster and have a means to get into a good position to do so due to their delivery method having been paid for - im also going to assume they used their grenades to ensure no overwatch and that the plague marines arent hitting as easily (seems fair when i've built the plague marines specifically to be good at melee - could go further and say the plague marines all had secondary knives and none had guns too, and factor that in, but give the reivers shooting... but whatever, for now assume the majority of plague marines have a bolter and knife... anyway...)

So reivers charge, they have 31 attacks, hitting on 3s so fair to say 21 hit. 10 (10.5) wound, plague marines fail 3 (3.333) saves, so lose 2 models after Disgustingly resilient.  we assume they lose 2 of the ones with bolters

Plague marines attack back, the two flails, on average get 3 attacks between them, which means 1 hit as they're only hitting on 4s due to the shock grenade, that 1 hit ends up as 1 wound (0.666) and we'll be generous and say the marine also fails his save, so dies.

 

regular plague marine has 1 melee attack which misses (0.5)

 

the two with bubotic axes and knife guys get 2 hits between them, 2 wounds through and knocks a wound off 1 model (balances out the generosity vs the flails.. sort of, if id been generous on this one instead, that first marine would be alive still until this point)

 

sergeant hits once and wounds once but with no AP is unlikely to put another wound (0.333) on the marine.

Going to assume the plague marines kill another model due to death to the false emperor (fairly unlikely unless they get lucky in terms of which weapon causes it - but you never know!

 

So both units kill 2 models. In the case of BA reivers they'd actually kill 3 (im erring on the lower side, could easily be 4) plague marines before the plague marines get to swing due to red thirst, which potentially also reduces the casualties they suffer in return)

Plague marines have to make a morale test with a adding 3 (4 if BA) to the result. which probably means no models die due to morale, but likewise the normal marines don't lose any, ending in a tie - latter rounds don't go so well for marines as the plague marines are hitting first next round and hitting on 3s not 4s. for BA the plague marines lose on average 1 more model due to morale as well though.

 

 

so yeah, looking at the above, which didnt take any kind of shooting other than the grenade into account, I think you're probably right that normal reivers are not going to do too much to plague marines (they'd have killed 1 more if it was normal chaos marines, and killed another via morale though for a total of 4 models slain), blood angel reivers do a fair bit better, killing twice as many plague marines as the regular marines do between red thirst and morale, and killing 7 normal chaos marines (the normal chaos marines would also have done significantly less damage back to the reivers).

 

Lol, after effectively rambling for an age I almost forget my point - reivers are not terrible, but they do require a bit of care in how they're used. they'll want to be making use of the AP -1 pistols to soften up foes a bit before they charge in, and should ideally be looking for charges where they can use their grenades, but obviously can't always manage that.

 

[Cognative]

Hamster forgot to add

-Cenobytess for Black Templars

6 Points for 12” Morale Immunity goodness

If the Cenobytes were Characters I would agree. They will be shot off by basically anything, and the banner bearer is taller than a Rhino so you need at least an LRC to hide them behind. And then I hope your opponent doesn't have any elevation .

[Schlitzaf]

 

Hamster forgot to add

-Cenobytess for Black Templars

6 Points for 12” Morale Immunity goodness

If the Cenobytes were Characters I would agree. They will be shot off by basically anything, and the banner bearer is taller than a Rhino so you need at least an LRC to hide them behind. And then I hope your opponent doesn't have any elevation .

I hide them behind building walls. And they can take quite a few Bolter Shots. You need wound to them 6 times or 9 Bolter Shots. Which means at 14-16 Bolter Shots. Minimum. If your in cover

 

That number there becomes 9 wounds. Or 14-16 Bolters Shot. Then 21-24 actually Shots. Or 2.5 full Tactical Squads worth of shooting. As with 12” range they can hide fairly easily enough.

[GreyCrow]

Let's look at the baseline for 40k as a rule system.

 

The core are the Troops, mostly. The rest of the units are support dedicated to some very specific job.

That's because board control and kill points are such a big thing.

 

You can't go wrong by investing in more Troops, but you can go wrong in investing too much in the wrong support due to the hard counters.

 

Transport spam, for instance, is a great way to get butchered by enough Lascannons in front.

 

The push is your entire army in all 40k games just because of the hard counters that are there to specific push units.

 

Bring a dread too close, and get melta'd. Push with Cultists, enjoy Heavy Bolters.

 

Push units are a great concept in real life militaries and other strategy games where victory is mainly driven by units that can not be countered.

The 40k game system in 8th is not really designed for that.

 

All units are there to support a very healthy dose of infantry. Troops set the pace and determine what support you need.

 

In the Marines Codex, now with the buff to ranged weapons, Tacticals are pretty good at everything and can handle most that is thrown at them.

Support units either double up as Tacticals, or just purely synergize with the Tacticals by buffing them.

[Captain Idaho]

Assault Terminators are useful as are Vanguard, but they won't steam roller armies. Multiple characters grants a solid assault potential of course.

 

Honour Guard were powerful days gone by but again they've lost it now because they're only 2 strong. We could get like 3-4 units of them and stick them all in a Rhino but then there's more charge rolls to get them into combat, they fight separately and generally it's not a great idea.

 

I miss my Honour Guard unit hammering opponents and feel that a killy unit would be a nice change.

 

@ Blindhammer: I don't think you mathed that out properly. You said the Plague Marines have 3 attacks each so we'll average hits to 1 per model?

 

Either way, Reivers aren't that good.

[Blindhamster]

Assault Terminators are useful as are Vanguard, but they won't steam roller armies. Multiple characters grants a solid assault potential of course.

 

Honour Guard were powerful days gone by but again they've lost it now because they're only 2 strong. We could get like 3-4 units of them and stick them all in a Rhino but then there's more charge rolls to get them into combat, they fight separately and generally it's not a great idea.

 

I miss my Honour Guard unit hammering opponents and feel that a killy unit would be a nice change.

 

@ Blindhammer: I don't think you mathed that out properly. You said the Plague Marines have 3 attacks each so we'll average hits to 1 per model?

 

Either way, Reivers aren't that good.

 

plague marines dont have three attacks each.

 

Do you mean the flails? They're d3 attacks between them, so 2 flails averages to 3 attacks between 2 models. Due to the shock grenades they hit on a 4+. Which is 2 hits indeed 2 hits (thanks Rogue) but that doesn't increase the probability of causing wounds enough 2 reliably get 2 wounds through (1.33333), averages mean its still not going to kill more than 1 marine (obviously 2 flails have the potential on an amazing day to kill 6, but thats with all the dice going their way).

 

Either way, Reivers absolutely ARE good - they arent amazing, but they're better at melee than scouts and assault marines (they're tougher and have more attacks), and as good as vanguard vets with standard bolt pistol and chainsword in melee, whilst still being tougher than them, the vanguard are of course more maneuverable. Vs MEQ 10 reivers hit 21 times, wound 10 (we'll round down) and kill 3 on average. Which is enough to on average kill 1 more due to Morale.

 

With BA, reivers are better because their increased chance to wound has a big impact on the numbers (wounding 15 instead of 10, which means another 1 or 2 dead and another 1 or 2 lost due to morale)

 

Edit:

 

I recognised my failing (thanks to rogue) and have corrected it.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Rogue]

It’s pedantic, but if you’re going to do lots of math-hammer, better tell you now rather than later. Something that does d3 hits will average two hits per turn, not 1.5. So two plague marines with flails average 4 hits, not 3.

[Blindhamster]

okay, yeah actually thinking on that, it seems obvious now.

so 4 hits.

1.33 (recurring) wounds rather than 1. 

So still averages to a single dead marine... in this instance.

[Captain Idaho]

Scouts and Assault Marines are poor at close combat except against the weakest of opponents. Vanguard with only Chainswords is a rarity - you'll put lightning claws and things on them. Storm Shields etc.

 

Reivers don't compare to that. They're an okay disruption unit against things like Devastator squads, but then for killing things you want something better. And you want to kill things.