C: Space Marine and the lack of a ‘Push’ Unit

[SydonianDragoon404]

Honor the Chapter is overcosted at 3 command points, so if you plan to use it more than once per game you need at least a double battalion, if not a Brigade to utilize it. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

We actually get saves against a lot of things we didn't before.

 

Everything lost close combat potential.

 

Morale was broken before

 

The reduction in power of the bolt gun is a fair point.

 

1. Yes and no. You could always jump into ruins if, for example, you were going up against massed plasma or grav, and still hold out for a 4+ cover save.  We didn't care about flamers in that regards, because they didn't overcome our power armor.   Now, the plasma and melta and grav still knocks us down to a 6+ armor save, which is effectively the same as negating it, and a bunch of other things which never used to touch is can still plink away at us better. I realize and fully concede the results are highly situational, but most people seem to be noticing that 8th edition overall is more deadly on elite infantry.  This is part of why hordes are doing so well right now.  All that being said, I agree this is probably the weakest part of my 4 pt argument.

 

2. Right, but we've always paid a premium for our statline, because GW is still of the 1998 mindset that if you have a "4" next to your S and/or T that you are uber elite infantry and must pay dearly for it.  Put another way, us losing a 2nd str. 4 attack on the charge was worse for us than IG losing a 2nd str 3 attack on the charge, but GW still makes us pay for our S:4 characteristic.

 

3. Maybe, but it doesn't change the fact that we lost something in comparison to 7th edition. And I can't speak for everyone but my Marines died just fine in 7th edition, despite not breaking from combat.  Eldar and Necrons were top tier in 7th edition, Space Marines didn't really come into top tables until they got their Gladius decurion with free razors and rhinos and Skyhammer shenanigans...meaning it wasn't the ATSKNF that put them into top placings.

 

4. Cool.

[Firepower]

 

Put another way, us losing a 2nd str. 4 attack on the charge was worse for us than IG losing a 2nd str 3 attack on the charge, but GW still makes us pay for our S:4 characteristic.

 

Well put.

[Toxichobbit]

Just jumping in to let out my own complaint about marines. Why do we have to pay more for plasma guns and other heavy weapons than guardsmen? I realize we have a better BS but I thought we were already paying for our stats with the cost of the marine? Why do we also have to pay a tax on our weapons?

 

Guard plasma guns on BS3+ models are 13 points, the same price as Marine plasma guns. Meltaguns are now the same, 17 points for Guard's BS3+ models. Their heavy weapons are cheaper regardless of BS, but far more limited on Guard's BS3+ models than special weapons. Whether we like it or not, BS is taken into consideration for the cost of some weapons regardless of the unit's other stats and costs. We're also not considering weapon availability, Chapter Tactics, Regimental Doctrines, Orders or Stratagems. Comparing weapon prices on one metric (in this case, BS) without taking into consideration all the other relevant and complex factors doesn't work.

 

Let me put it another way. Why do Guard pay the same as Marines for BS3+ plasma guns and meltaguns when they only have T3 and a 5+ save? My Veterans, Command Squads* and Scions that are paying Marine prices for their weapons tend to get one use out of them then die because almost anything in the game will wipe them out and they're high priority compared to the BS4+ masses. My Tactical Marines usually get 3-4 turns of firing their special weapons because they're not a priority target and they're tough enough to survive incidental fire that comes their way. In that respect the plasma and meltaguns on my Marines are more points efficient than the plasma and meltaguns on my Guard.

 

* actually, my Command Squads don't tend to get one use out of their weapons then die, because I play "proper" Command Squads, not BS3+ special weapon squads. So instead of plasma/melta suicide, they hide at the back, waving their flag behind the biggest building (or tank) they can find, inspiring the rest of the troops .

[GreyCrow]

Hey we may have lost an attack but we gained the ability to Rapid Fire, then charge.

And hit first versus other initiative 4 units.

 

It's a good trade ;)

 

And Toxichobbit is very right. The points system in the game seems to be balanced around wounds dealt/taken. Since all units have the same stat line, it's quite easier to do that.

 

Therefore, a PG on a BS3+ will have 16%points more chance to do a wound versus BS4+.

[Kallas]

Therefore, a PG on a BS3+ will have 16%points more chance to do a wound versus BS4+.

Well, not a +16% chance to cause a wound, only +16% to hit. Assuming it's T*2 (S7 vs T3, or Supercharged S8 vs T4):

BS3+ is 0.66*0.84 = 0.5544, so a 55.4% chance to wound

BS4+ is 0.5*0.84 = 0.42, so a 42% chance to cause a wound

 

So BS3+ gets a +13.4% chance to cause a successful wound.

 

Guardsman Infantryman (BS4+; T3; Sv5+) with Plasma Gun costs 11pts

Guardsman Veteran (BS3+; T3; Sv5+) with a Plasma Gun costs 19pts

Tactical Marine (BS3+; T4; Sv3+) with a Plasma Costs 26pts

 

Points per Wound:

Infantryman; 0.038ppw

Veteran; 0.029ppw

Tactical; 0.021ppw

 

The Tactical does pack extra resilience (which 3++ has done some Mathhammer on, which shows they're worse point-for-point than Infantrymen - Linky Linky) but pays most for its output, statline and basically everything.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Kallas

[SyNidus]

With respect, i must disagree with the OP. We do have "push" units, Vanguard squads and Terminators do great work for me, but they don't come cheap.

I'm able to limit my opponent's movements by them trying to avoid the threat bubbles. With the right configuration, i'm able to dislodge entrenched enemies quite handily with a vanguard squad. My kit? I take 8 Vanguard vets with jump packs, hammers & shields. Only 312 points for a unit that packs so much damage into a highly mobile, arguably very durable package.

 

The other thing to note is that Space Marine units are meant to be supporting each other. So if you don't have something backing up your "push unit" or if you don't have multiple unit's hitting the entrenched position, i'd argue that's just doing it wrong. Unlike certain other armies (like chaos space marines), our units work more on the principle of mutual support. So perhaps what you should be doing is not looking for a singular push unit, but a combination of units you can use to clear off and occupy entrenched positions.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Only 312 points he says. Durable? You have got to be kidding me. They die like marines. Sure, any inexperienced opponent will shoot plasma, lascannons, meltas, etc into them because they are scary looking. But the minute you fight someone who knows what they're doing, and shoots hurricane bolters at them or some other kind of high ROF weapon that makes you take the same save you would be on your armor, you won't be feeling durable for very long. Oh yeah, and lets not forget mortal wounds shall we? You're making it easy for any psyker to make their points back and more with a unit like that. 

 

I consider my meta to be in between casual and competitive. They don't go full WAAC, tournament only lists, but typically the people I fight on a given Saturday have some teeth in their lists. I cringe to think about what would happen to a 312 point VV squad if a Leman Russ Punisher were to shoot at it twice. That's a lot of points just dead. 

 

Ugh, disgusts me just thinking about it. 

Edited December 15, 2017 by SydonianDragoon404

[SyNidus]

Only 312 points he says. Durable? You have got to be kidding me. They die like marines. Sure, any inexperienced opponent will shoot plasma, lascannons, meltas, etc into them because they are scary looking. But the minute you fight someone who knows what they're doing, and shoots hurricane bolters at them or some other kind of high ROF weapon that makes you take the same save you would be on your armor, you won't be feeling durable for very long. Oh yeah, and lets not forget mortal wounds shall we? You're making it easy for any psyker to make their points back and more with a unit like that.

 

I consider my meta to be in between casual and competitive. They don't go full WAAC, tournament only lists, but typically the people I fight on a given Saturday have some teeth in their lists. I cringe to think about what would happen to a 312 point VV squad if a Leman Russ Punisher were to shoot at it twice. That's a lot of points just dead.

 

Ugh, disgusts me just thinking about it.

Heh, well don't put the squad in front of a leman russ punisher, lol.

 

I never said it's a fire and forget weapon. It needs to be supported not just with other units but with tactics as well.

 

Yeah my meta isn't filled with slouches either.

[Mileposter]

I cringe to think about what would happen to a 312 point VV squad if a Leman Russ Punisher were to shoot at it twice. That's a lot of points just dead. 

 

Ugh, disgusts me just thinking about it.

... If a Leman Russ Punisher has the option of shooting my 312 point VV squad? They've already earned their points back before then.

[SydonianDragoon404]

It's not really a matter of "not putting the squad in front of the punisher" its a matter them being an assault unit that is supposed to be close to your opponent's lines, and whatever you charged before is either dead or pulls back. The range on a punisher cannon is 24'', that's more than sufficient to reach out and fire twice. 

 

IDK, I think we're both probably making assumptions that won't happen every time. I just think that we pay too much for our assault units when they only have 2 attacks each, and that 3 command points is too expensive to make them swing again for army that can't take Brigade easily. Oh yea, and we can't regen command points unless we're ultramarines...

[SyNidus]

It's not really a matter of "not putting the squad in front of the punisher" its a matter them being an assault unit that is supposed to be close to your opponent's lines, and whatever you charged before is either dead or pulls back. The range on a punisher cannon is 24'', that's more than sufficient to reach out and fire twice.

 

IDK, I think we're both probably making assumptions that won't happen every time. I just think that we pay too much for our assault units when they only have 2 attacks each, and that 3 command points is too expensive to make them swing again for army that can't take Brigade easily. Oh yea, and we can't regen command points unless we're ultramarines...

I can agree with that. If i run the vanguard squad like that (and i do, i run 2 of em in fact), i have other things in my army that can help clear chaff or draw fire. But definitely not a sure fire thing.

 

And i agree. Our stratagems & stats don't really support dedicated close combat.

[Rcketmouse]

Have we already negated Aggressors as push units? They are slow, but can advance and shoot, are T5 2W and have weight of fire. Best of all you get 3 for cheaper with Chap App. Admittedly I am looking at them from playing Raven Guard and using the stratagem to drop them on the enemy turn 1 as a distraction/disruption.

[Daigo Cannon]

I have being playing Inceptors after the point adjustment, they are great now, they have ROF, mobility and can get involved in combat, downside is these attacks are STR4 AP 0. 18 HB shoots are great to cut the screening units from what you really want to charge.

One of the biggest deceptions I have is with termis being T4, so much armor and no improvement on this stat if disappointing. Hopefully with Aggressors and Inceptors being T5, GW will come to understand the same is needed for termis.

 

I play a 3 Inceptors, 5 Cataprhactii, LT(Primarch Wrath) and Captain in termi(multi melta) as a DS group. It has being a good set up to push my opponent's side. Captain will target high value targets with the melta, inceptors and cataphractii have enough ROF to clean screening units and LT can attempt to shoot any multiwound unit, STR5 AP1 RF2 D2, normally ends with 2 or 4 wounds even on vehicles. Adding re rolls to charge to the captain as LoW trade almost add a plus to the melee potential for them. Termi captain can buy Iron halo for 1 CP to be able to negate mortal wounds from any near psyker.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Anyone tried dual PP VVs?

[Captain Idaho]

Aggressors are too small arms to be considered. Not having an invulnerable save it delivery system just makes them incredibly weak, especially with 18" range. I don't rate them at all.

 

Whilst I think Inceptors are reasonable in a list with units that can take their attention, again they're not particularly survivable. They are incredibly offensive though so they're worth a look.

[Firepower]

How aggressively can SM be played using things like Inceptors? Seems like the best we can do is a solid deep strike deployment, like Inceptors and Sternguard pods, Vanguard, Reavers, and Terminators. But most armies today seem to always include a defense against deep strike deployment.

 

Can we "push" with units that start on the table? There are transports, but the rule of thumb is apparently to get somewhere cozy to shoot from, and hunker down. But I wouldn't say most things you normally put in a rhino create a dangerous enough field of fire to discourage any approach...

 

Could just be me and my fetish for stabby stabs, but when I think of push units I think of fast, hard hitting assault units, which we're sorely lacking (relative to other codices).

[breng77]

I think marines have plenty of "push" units if we are thinking about bully units, that can take out troops on objectives etc.  What they lack is something that is going to push extremely durable units off their desired positions.