Post-Chapter Approved: Are Plague Marines worth it now?

[Wayniac]

I like Plague Marines.  To me, they are what Death Guard are about and they should be the core of the army with things like Poxwalkers and Cultists supporting them, not the other way around.  With the points drops in Chapter Approved, do you think they become more viable or is it still going to be Typhus presents The Walking Dead 40,000 Edition?  I'm thinking of at least semi-competitive lists that are Plague Marine-focused, is anyone else doing this and having any modicum of success with it?

 

Speaking with more of a competitive focus for list building, as I think Plague Marines are fine for casual play already.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Wayniac

[BlackTriton]

Maybe with the coming of the haulers?

 

In a game where we value and compare unit by raw damage output, resilient and flexible unit like marines get left behind. they may yet find a place, but not at the center of any competitive lists.

 

I would guess that any environment where you see regular marine, you will se plague marine doing well.

[Lagrath]

I think they could be competitive if you fielded a bunch of squads with 7x Marines with 2 flails, 2 blight launchers, 1 bubotic axe, 2 dual plague knives, and back them up with 2-3 blight haulers and a noxious blight bringer.

 

You're springing up field with advancing 2d6 pick the highest, and can still fire 4 blightlauncher shots normally and when in range your units hit hard in melee. The blight launchers can also move 10" and fire normal BS and then fight in melee if needed. For extra effect bring a daemon prince warlord with the helm relic and the Mortarion warlord trait for a 10" bubble of reroll 1 to hit and reroll all to-wound rolls on all plague marine ranged and melee weapons.

[Marshal Loss]

It has definitely helped. I've seen some good competitive results locally from players just last weekend using 2-4 units of MSU special weapon spamming plague marines. The best build is probably now a 5 man unit with 1x plasma gun and 2x blight launchers. For 118 points you're getting a lot of firepower; it's a little dull, but if we're talking tournaments, you're not going to be taking flails or building units up to 7 man and footslogging them into melee. I would avoid haulers for competitive play.

 

Sadly I couldn't play and was only there watching for 1 out of the 2 days, but my friend's list was something like this:

 

Daemon Prince w/wings, suppurating plate

Typhus

 

3x Plague Marines, 2x Blight, 1x Plasma

 

Foul Blightspawn (1 or 2)

 

Blightlord Terminators x5 (don't remember loadout)

 

1x Foetid bloat-drone with 2x Plaguespitters

 

2x Plagueburst Crawler

 

Mortarion

 

Might have missed a few things, but that looks pretty close. I don't remember him using any poxwalkers or cultists, and it was pure DG, no CSM added for warptime. He only lost 1 out of his 5 games.

 

Any builds other than special weapon spamming aren't going to be the most competitive choice. Doing large units of plague marines for the blight bombardment stratagem is more of a gimmick than anything else, or going all in on a unit equipped for melee isn't playing to their strengths. Axes are nice and cheap though, so throwing some into a unit can't hurt. Add as many Foul Blightspawn as your morals allow, along with the somewhat obligatory fast units (Plaguespitter Drones, Mortarion, etc) and the plague marines should be able to keep firing long enough to make an impact.

 

So overall, I guess, the points reduction has definitely helped them. They weren't bad before, so they're just that little bit better now.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Marshal Loss

[Ishagu]

I think they are excellent offensive MSU troops. 5 guys with special weapons pack a punch and you can run two such units in a Humble Rhino.

[Closet Skeleton]

No, Plague Marines were always good and it doesn't matter how cheap you make them they're not going to be a fearless horde. A 2 point per model drop isn't really enough to let you bring many more Plague Marines so those extra points will go on support not on the marines themselves.

 

Pox Walkers aren't more popular because Plague Marines are bad, Pox Walkers are popular because fearless hordes are the meta.

 

20 strong melee plague marine units are definitely playing to a strength and blight bombardment is just icing on the cake, you'll just need one of those forge world drop pods. The Contagion discipline's buff spells are really good, don't assume that 20 buffed plague marines can't out perform 20 khorne berzerkers.

[Marshal Loss]

Nobody brought up Khorne Berzerkers as a point of comparison. I shouldn't have said it wasn't playing to their strengths, but you will sacrifice some of those strengths in order to play them that way, which I don't think is the best choice.

 

Plague marines are special because they are tough and can be used to spam special weapons without being forced to take the unit up to a particular size. Going all in on a 20 man unit (you need a Biologus Putrifier, so it's not just 'icing on the cake' as you have to pay for it in order to make it worthwhile...) isn't ineffective, some players have already shown it's good, but you need to build your army around it, especially if you're spending masses of points on a transport for them. It takes away their ability to spam special weapons, which is what gives you damage output at range and allows you to take advantage of Inexorable Advance.

 

Not to mention how incredibly impractical it would be to drop down a Kharybdis and 20 plague marines against a competent player...

 

Large 20 man units can definitely work, but in tournaments? I'm not convinced they will be anywhere near as effective as plasma/blight launcher spamming units on foot or in transports. Even if you're running multiple smaller units without special weapons, you have the advantage of being able to go for and hold objectives without relying on chaff. Tournaments results I've seen, both locally and online, corroborate this. Feel free to post a list though.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Marshal Loss

[DuskRaider]

They're what now? 2 points more than standard Chaos Space Marines? They're great for the points, especially what you get for them. They have an immense amount of options and are not dependent on squad size for max special weapons. They become even better when used in tandem with Independent Character buffs, Psyker powers, and the various Stratagems. I honestly can't understand how anyone can think they're average or subpar... 

[Ishagu]

For a toughness 5 unit with disgusting resilience, a bigger rapid fire range and lots of special weapons at their cost you'd be silly to ignore them :-P

[Wayniac]

Have to say I am not sold on the huge unit with Blightspawn, Putrifier, etc. It seems like a gimmick, similar to "horde o'zombies" that can only do one thing well, but if your opponent knows how to counter it, you're screwed.

[Bulwyf]

I have a for fun list that has 3 squads of  7 PM in it with the special character that lets you toss blight grenades like mad that is pretty fun and hits hard. My friend that plays Black Legion pretty much rage quite in turn 2 against it. When I get home I'll post it.

 

To be fair that list does have Typhus, one 20 man blob of poxwalkers and one 14 or so squad of cultists. So you can't completely get away from them but they serve as meat shields to keep the PM free to throw grenades.

[Closet Skeleton]

Nobody brought up Khorne Berzerkers as a point of comparison. I shouldn't have said it wasn't playing to their strengths, but you will sacrifice some of those strengths in order to play them that way, which I don't think is the best choice.

 

Not to mention how incredibly impractical it would be to drop down a Kharybdis and 20 plague marines against a competent player...

 

I brought up Khorne Berzerkers. If you're talking about chaos melee units then they're always going to be hovering other the conversation.

 

Every use of a unit focuses on one strength over other strengths. Spamming blight launchers is great against armies that blight launchers are good against and so so against other armies (blight launchers are one of those weapons that's not really bad against anything)

 

Kharybdis are way too expensive, I was typing out of ignorance.

 

 

Large 20 man units can definitely work, but in tournaments? I'm not convinced they will be anywhere near as effective as plasma/blight launcher spamming units on foot or in transports. Even if you're running multiple smaller units without special weapons, you have the advantage of being able to go for and hold objectives without relying on chaff. Tournaments results I've seen, both locally and online, corroborate this. Feel free to post a list though.

 

Tournaments aren't just a free for all where every possibly list going up against every other possible list and the best ones float to the top. Tournament data is the best data we have but its shaped by what people bring, there are lots of potentially powerful tournament lists that nobody uses because they're not obviously cheesy enough in speculative theory hammer.

 

Tournament players favour MSU. There's no data on horde marines because nobody uses them. I've played horde marines (in a very cheesy 7th ed list that could only just compete with far less cheesy lists) against MSU tournament lists and it was very clear to me that MSU units aren't actually good at fighting big power armour blobs. MSU is superior to big squads because of the wider tactical options, not because of what happens when the two extreme ways to run power armour actually face off against each other (which basically doesn't happen).

 

There's no Death Guard list that's good against real Infantry Guard spam. Talking about internal Codex competitiveness for a mid tier faction is basically irrelevant if you want to write the best tournament list.

 

Battalion detachment

Chaos Lord, power fist, arch contaminator

Malignant plague caster, putrescent vitality, blades of putrefaction

 

20 plague marines, 2 blight launchers, power fist, 3 bubotic axe and knife pairs, 2 flails, 14 knife pairs

 

20 plague marines, 2 blight launchers, power fist, 2 bubotic axe and knife pairs, 2 flails, 15 knife pairs

 

20 plague marines, 2 blight launchers, plasma gun

 

20 plague marines, 2 blight launchers, plasma gun

 

17 pox walkers

 

Plague Surgeon, fulgaris helm

 

Noxious Blightbringer

 

2000 points

 

I'm not going to tell anyone that's a good list, but 80 plague marines is hard to deal with and no one has experience against it and that's always an advantage.

 

Or

 

Battalion

chaos lord, combi-melta

 

chaos lord, combi-melta

 

5 plague marines, 2 blight launchers, plasma gun

 

5 plague marines, 2 blight launchers, plasma gun

 

5 plague marines, 2 blight launchers, plasma gun

 

5 plague marines, 2 blight launchers, plasma gun

 

5 plague marines, 2 blight launchers, plasma gun

 

5 plague marines, 2 blight launchers, plasma gun

 

 

Battalion

chaos lord, combi-melta

 

chaos lord, combi-melta

 

5 plague marines, 2 blight launchers, plasma gun

 

5 plague marines, 2 blight launchers, plasma gun

 

5 plague marines, 2 blight launchers, plasma gun

 

5 plague marines, 2 blight launchers, plasma gun

 

5 plague marines, 2 blight launchers, plasma gun

 

5 plague marines, 2 blight launchers, plasma gun

 

Patrol

chaos lord, combi-melta

 

5 plague marines, 2 blight launchers, plasma gun

 

1999 points

 

70 plague marines, 9 command points, 5 chaos lords in troop slot tax. With some rejigging we can lose a plasma gun and swap our lords for sorcerers with force swords or swap a plague marine unit for another character and take 3 battalions. It certainly looks irritating.

[Marshal Loss]

 

I brought up Khorne Berzerkers. If you're talking about chaos melee units then they're always going to be hovering other the conversation.

 

Every use of a unit focuses on one strength over other strengths. Spamming blight launchers is great against armies that blight launchers are good against and so so against other armies (blight launchers are one of those weapons that's not really bad against anything)

 

Kharybdis are way too expensive, I was typing out of ignorance.

 

 

This is the Death Guard tactica, not the Chaos Space Marines tactica. The topic was not posted to evaluate plague marines against their equivalents in other armies - melee plague marines don't stop being good because khorne berzerkers are good, etc - so Khorne Berzerkers are not a valid point of comparison. Neither blight launchers nor plasma are bad against anything, frankly.

 

But yeah, a Kharybdis isn't a good idea.

 

 

 

Tournaments aren't just a free for all where every possibly list going up against every other possible list and the best ones float to the top. Tournament data is the best data we have but its shaped by what people bring, there are lots of potentially powerful tournament lists that nobody uses because they're not obviously cheesy enough in speculative theory hammer.

 

Tournament players favour MSU. There's no data on horde marines because nobody uses them. I've played horde marines (in a very cheesy 7th ed list that could only just compete with far less cheesy lists) against MSU tournament lists and it was very clear to me that MSU units aren't actually good at fighting big power armour blobs. MSU is superior to big squads because of the wider tactical options, not because of what happens when the two extreme ways to run power armour actually face off against each other (which basically doesn't happen).

 

There's no Death Guard list that's good against real Infantry Guard spam. Talking about internal Codex competitiveness for a mid tier faction is basically irrelevant if you want to write the best tournament list.

 

Yes, tournament players favour MSU. But you are wrong that they do poorly against marine blobs. There is no points incentive, like there is in 30k, for example, to encourage people to do larger units. Particularly with plague marines, as I said above, one of our core strengths is being able to spam special weapons with a minimal squad size. It is why plague marines have been a staple unit for years. If you do a marine blob, it must be with the intention of using stratagems or the size of the unit itself as a strength in its own right. However, in doing so, you give up your maneuverability/ability to contest multiple objectives, make your unit easier to avoid, and miss out on spamming the special weapons that give plague marines a punch.

 

So what is the advantage of a large unit? We can sink stratagems into them and ensure they get across the board in one piece. In 8th edition, importantly, they can split fire now, which would make them equivalent to MSU in terms of damage output at range if it wasn't for the fact that once again, theyt cannot spam special weapons. They do quite well in melee. Those are tangible advantages, but how do they compare to MSU? Poorly, I think. Certainly in a competitive environment, I don't see the merit. It's a valid point that we haven't seen many (although there have been some, for the record, generally based around one blob) infantry spam DG lists in tournaments though, and I would definitely revise my opinion if I saw evidence. All I've seen so far in a pseudo-competitive sense are the reports put out by frontline gaming, with the 20 man death blob that they build their army around while Mortarion runs up a flank with warptime.

 

One minor point, though: it's valid that tournament players take lists to deal with tournament lists, and it becomes a bit of a cycle. If you aim to break that cycle then, you're going to have to demonstrate that an idea can take on these existing lists. Big blobs are resilient to alpha strikes but fall short in other areas. And while lists may be inconsistent, tournament missions and formats are generally very consistent.

 

DG do struggle against Infantry Guard spam but you are very wrong that there is no list that is good against them. Internal discussions are also not irrelevant, and outside comparisons should be raised in the context of them being opponents, not as equivalents (like Khorne Berzerkers).

 

Anyway, I appreciate you posting some lists. I don't think either is going to win a tournament, but I'd be very keen to see whether somebody could shoot that many plague marines off a board.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

 Neither blight launchers nor plasma are bad against anything, frankly.

 

?

 

That's literally what I said.

 

With Arch Contaminator you can even say Blight Launchers are good against everything.

 

Plasma is bad against daemon infantry spam I guess. Especially plague bearers.

 

Yes, tournament players favour MSU. But you are wrong that they do poorly against marine blobs.

 

 

I never said that. I said MSU being favoured has nothing to do with its ability to perform against marine blobs and that in my limited experience I can beat MSU tournament lists with marine blobs (in maelstrom missions).

 

MSU has more things going for it than blobs but its in no way a counter to blobs. The reverse isn't really true either of course.

 

 

 

DG do struggle against Infantry Guard spam but you are very wrong that there is no list that is good against them. Internal discussions are also not irrelevant, and outside comparisons should be raised in the context of them being opponents, not as equivalents (like Khorne Berzerkers).

 

Khorne berzerkers are as much an outside comparison as warp time sorcerers. Most DG armies are going to be Chaos ones anyway.

 

If you can think of a DG army that's good against guard infantry spam then go ahead and post one.

 

By Guard infantry spam I mean something with 150+ bodies and 30+ missile launchers. They're also Cadian so every Chaos opponent is basically stuffed because they get a Guiliman equivalent for 30 points.

 

 

Anyway, I appreciate you posting some lists. I don't think either is going to win a tournament, but I'd be very keen to see whether somebody could shoot that many plague marines off a board.

 

Winning a tournament is basically a lucky draw at the end based on arbitrary score metrics.

[Marshal Loss]

 

?

 

That's literally what I said.

 

With Arch Contaminator you can even say Blight Launchers are good against everything.

 

?

 

Read more carefully. I was just adding plasma to blight launchers in terms of 'guns that are good against everything'...

 

 

 

I never said that. I said MSU being favoured has nothing to do with its ability to perform against marine blobs and that in my limited experience I can beat MSU tournament lists with marine blobs (in maelstrom missions).

 

MSU has more things going for it than blobs but its in no way a counter to blobs. The reverse isn't really true either of course.

 

'It was very clear to me' does not scream 'in my limited experience,' not to mention that you were drawing conclusions based on a list that only worked against far less competitive lists.

 

 and it was very clear to me that MSU units aren't actually good at fighting big power armour blobs

 

Saying that they aren't actually good implies that the reverse is true, although you have since qualified your statement. We essentially agree that MSU is better as a result of tactical flexibility, so there's not really much more to add, although when it comes to Plague Marines, damage output is superior from MSU because of our special weapon spam. Not all MSU = equal.

 

 

 

Khorne berzerkers are as much an outside comparison as warp time sorcerers. Most DG armies are going to be Chaos ones anyway.

 

If you can think of a DG army that's good against guard infantry spam then go ahead and post one.

 

By Guard infantry spam I mean something with 150+ bodies and 30+ missile launchers. They're also Cadian so every Chaos opponent is basically stuffed because they get a Guiliman equivalent for 30 points.

 

I mentioned warptime sorcerers because they were something that was used in an infantry spam list I was citing; I was not comparing them to anything in the list. Yes, we are a derivative army, but comparing them to Khorne Berzerkers is a useless comparison. If this were a thread about Plague Marines in the CSM forum, then sure.

 

I'm on my phone and can't figure out how to paste a list from Battlescribe into here, but sure, simple: Poxwalkers, Cultists, Mortarion, Daemon Prince(s), perhaps Drones with dual spitters. Terrain should not be a problem in a tournament. Tournament data (both my own personal experience, and others like Orkt'fest, GOTW, etc) corroborates this. IG are better than us, but saying that no DG list is good against them is categorically false. It's in a tournament environment with generalist lists that we struggle, when we aren't able to list tailor, but that wasn't the point I was making.

 

At its core, this thread was about plague marine focused lists, not lists that take nothing but plague marines. Experiences will of course differ based on local scene, but this discussion has moved far from its intended purpose, and has become cyclical.

 

 

Winning a tournament is basically a lucky draw at the end based on arbitrary score metrics.

 

 

Irrelevant and highly misleading. I was simply making a general comment on the viability of your lists.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Marshal Loss