Chapter Approved AM feedback

[micahwc]

Do you want to address the worthlessness of grenade launchers? For a BS 4+ model, why would anyone ever take one over a plasma gun for 2 more points? Double the shots, better strength, more damage possibility, etc.

 

You mention the Vendetta in your opening post, I just want to reiterate that it costs more than a Vulture, but is generally less effective than a Vulture at killing things due to hitting on 5s. It costs more than a Valkyrie, and has the same issue.

[Feral_80]

I had already added something about the Vulture, also suggesting that it should be both conformed to the Valkyrie and get a bit pricier. 

 

I'd leave the grenade launcher out of this thread because every time it generates endless and quite pointless discussions. Someone else now would come and say that you know nothing and the gl is just great. I think that while certainly not the best thing around, it can have some uses - for example, if at the moment I ever decided to field Veterans or 'support' (banner etc.) Command squads, I'd only give them grenade launchers. But overall, I'd say to leave it as it is for now.

[Withershadow]

So we're already in wish-list and rules changes land?  That didn't last long.

[Chris521]

So we're already in wish-list and rules changes land?  That didn't last long.

Oh, I could go for hours if that where the case, but thus far I've been showing restraint. All that Leman Russ BS in my thread is just the start of my list.

[Feral_80]

Nope, I don't even want to start discussing/proposing rule changes. I rather not venture in an endless land of pain.

Only balance and clarification issues.

[Tirak]

The ** symbol on the Forgeworld points changes page is unclear as to what it relates to, matching up with the point changes for melta guns, plasma guns and the formation of heavy weapons teams. With regards to the weapons teams it does not specify their armament, nor how many may be taken from the squads marked with an ** symbol.

[H311fi5h]

Regarding special and heavy weapons, I suggest the following points changes:

 

Plasma Gun 9/12

Meltagun 9/12

Grenade Launcher 4/6

Flamer 5

Sniper Rifle 1/2

 

Multi-laser 5

Mortar 8

Missile Launcher 15

 

 

Other things that should be addressed:

 

- Valhallan Strategem: has been mate utterly useless. Give it back some purpose.

- Superheavy Balance: The Shadowsword completely outclasses any other variant and should be +30 points. The Banesword and Stormsword should be reviewed as they offer nothing over the other variants.

- Wyrdvane Psykers: Give us some reason to use them

- Sergeant Harker could be a bit more expensive. He's basically a must take for Catachans.

[Mitchverr]

Thats a bit much for the mortar, 6 points is enough imo.

The multilaser is a bit low at 5 i think, 7 seems reasonable, more STR less AP then a H.Bolter, with 12 for a twin perhaps.

 

Still think the tauros grenade launcher is too high though, 20 points for what is effectively 10 points worth of normal grenade launchers currently with a lil more range.

[bigmic66]

My cyclops went up to 60pts each. Never saw them when they were 40....

[Feral_80]

Added the Valhallan, Shadowsword, Wyrdvanes.

 

Harker: don't know, he is good but 50 pts is not cheap. To me, he would just make more sense as a gunnery sgt if his aura applied to infantry only.

 

Cyclops: I have 3 and have never used them either. Any other opinion - was 40 really too cheap?

[CrusherJoe]

Leave the Vulture Punisher alone -- right now it's one point less than a BC LR with a single heavy flamer, and one point more than a LR Punisher with heavy flamer. For those points it gets the same # of shots as a LR Punisher on a platform that has less Toughness and has all the minuses of a flyers. Yes, BS3, but that and mobility is what justifies the points of the Vulture platform as a whole. The Punisher is a short ranged high quantity/low quality weapon and while yes, high # of shots, it's only S5 D1 AP0. On the Vulture it has enough trade-offs vs a LR for it's current points cost to be justified.

 

I would also say the Punisher itself is priced correctly (see above). It certainly doesn't need an increase. 

 

Mortars are getting a bad name right now because people have a tendency to spam them. There are many reasons for that, but in comparison to the other heavy weapon choices their damage output is very low due to BS4+ and random # of shots.. You'll shoot a lot or mortars to put a wound on a Space Marine in cover (a likely target, given the no LOS requirement).

 

The Primaris Psyker feels a couple of points too high -- compare/contrast with Eldar HQ psyker choices and you'll see what I mean (mainly due to lack of an invul and the rather amazing powers they have access to). Now look at the points cost of a Farseer and tell me if you think the current cost of a Primaris is fair.

 

The Astropath is a mixed bag. Has some utility but will die to a moderate breeze. I think this increase was more a knee-jerk reaction to spamability of Smite -- which, UGH, don't get me started on the lack of change to Smite.

 

The Cyclops is amazing in the right situation. It's not easy to create the right situation, however. I think 60 is WAY too high, but I still have 3 in my current list -- it's a great "DON'T GET TOO CLOSE TO ME" deterrent, and it's points might be worth it for that.

[Feral_80]

I wouldn't bitch about a 2-pt difference for a Primaris.

Don't know about Eldars, to me it seems fair that their psykers are better than those of most other races. What I consider crazy about Eldar is their easy access to stackable -1 hit bonus, that's broken for sure. But this is not the thread to discuss it.

 

About the Punisher: to be honest I'm puzzled here as well. I've never been a fan, and every time I used it the results have been extremely underwhelming, unless I had the luck to find an opponent who kindly fielded a big unit of crappy-save models. I consider Punisher LR quite poor, in fact, while the Vulture mobility benefits the usefulness of an otherwise modest weapon. Overall, the Punisher literally seems a lot of noise for nothing.

[OnboardG1]

On a stylistic point I'd be inclined to moderate some of the language before sending it. "Utterly useless" for instance sounds like a whine. "is no longer points efficient and does not warrant inclusion in most lists" gives more information on why you think it's broken without seeming like just complaining. 

 

Other than that you've got pretty much everything that I'd consider needing adjustment in there. 

[NatBrannigan]

For Relic of Lost Cadia, wouldn't It be easier to just round up all the people who use it once a turn and remove their hands?

 

Problem solved!

[Feral_80]

Fixed the 'useless' stuff.

 

I guess I'll give it a couple more days and then let go. Any suggestions on the best way to send/present this?

 

We are currently a decently sized number of players here, but the more we get to discuss/like, the more we can make our numbers count. Bring some friends.

[NatBrannigan]

Just make it clear that's it's a community efforts and not the ramblings of a madman! I'd say you've canvased the forums on this site (which is very well known), maybe link to this thread as well. If I was a games developer and saw that a community had come together to discuss issues in a level headed and fair manner I'd take more notice.

 

Having said that I've always assumed the people moaning about conscripts are the kind who type in all block capitals and just yell about how strong they are with no real basis in reality, maybe with a "lolz" at the end... That could be another way to go!

[Galron]

As someone who regularly uses at least one Cyclops up to 3 at rare times, I actually have no problem with that price hike. Mine regularly would take out many multiples of their points cost at 40 and will likely continue to do so at 60. Their size and a good camo job makes them almost un-noticeable in a terrain heavy board(especially with scatter terrain) and perfect for ambushing expensive units. For example in the last 4 games that I have played a single Cyclops in each game, they have accounted for Ahriman and a pile of rubrics, a squad of tau drones, stealth suits and most of a crisis team, almost a full genestealer squad and a brood lord, and finally a Decimator engine, daemon prince and a rhino(granted it exploded helping the situation). So yeah the points hike kind of was needed especially as I was seeing WAAC players talking about lists with detachments of multiple units of 3 because they are so good and cheap.

[Major_Gilbear]

Some good updates of the first post, well done.

 

I do still think it needs more editing, to make it clearer, and to emphasise the salient points.

 

For example, in the 2.1 Conscripts part you mention an either/or on the points hike and the Commissar, but then in 2.6 under Commissars you mention the rule that makes them bad. I think the comments need to be more joined-up, because if the Commissar nerf on it's own is fine in 2.1, then the later 2.6 is irrelevant.

 

I would also lose "in general... unworth" type of comment, and stick to short statements that simply explain the dry facts. It makes it easier to read and take in, and I don't imagine this letter will the only one that GW receives.

 

For example, 2.7 needs to explain why the Chimera is overcosted, because otherwise GW may think "we disagree" and just move on. However if you explain that it's lost a lot of features, that it's weapon options are all quite light, and suggest a points value to bring it in line with other comparable options like the Taurox, then you have made a case for GW to consider and potentially act upon.

 

Anyway, these are just my thoughts based on my own experience, and they are not meant to diminish the effort made so far. :)

[Halfpint100]

Cyclops needed the price hike. The amount of damage I have done with them needed a price increase. 60 points is fair

[Feral_80]

Adjustments done. To be honest, I still think the Chimera is a better Transport than the Taurox, simply because it can take h.flamers and track guards. However, h.flamers are too expensive and both the Chimera and the Taurox (esp. post-CA) are too expensive, also given the generally limited need for transport that AM infantry has. I'd rather take 2-3 more infantry squads.

 

Agreed on the Cyclops, actually I'd better start to test them.

[H311fi5h]

The reason why the Chimera is so unpopular isn't entirely the Chimera itself. I agree it is overcost. But just lowering its cost by 10 or 20 pts wouldn't change much.

There simply isn't anything worth transporting. Infantry is just as mobile with advancing and orders. So the only benefit is protection. But for regular infantry squads your better of just buying more infantry squads rather than trying to protect them, while veterans that would be worth protecting suffer from overcost special weapons.

Last but not least, Chimeras were used in past editions to protect command squads (well, the officer really). Now officers can just hang out behind friendly units feeling perfectly save.

Making the Chimera worth taking is a larger task than just buffing the Chimera. It also involves reviewing special weapons teams, veteran squads, and particularly short range special weapons such as flamers and meltaguns.

[Galron]

A rather blanket statement there. I use 4 chimera with twin heavy flamers to taxi my squads around in my standard list and they are very important for putting wounds on enemy squads and just general protection for the infantry as they envelop my opponents predictable thrust towards the anvil.

 

And yes you should use Cyclops.

[Feral_80]

I agree that to really fix Chimera they should probably give it back Command tank. But that's impossible since there is a (quite silly actually) stratagem for that now.

[iceman2160]

I have some ideas to propose that I believe might be appropriate rules adjustments to both Commissars and Conscripts.

 

First off Commissars:  Return then to their rules, as written in the AM codex, with the following change: Astra Militarum units within 6" of a friendly Commissar can never lose more than one model as the result of any single failed morale test.  However, any Conscript unit within 6" that fails a morale test suffers 2d3 casualties as a result.

 

Second item Conscripts:  I would like to propose a solution to conscript spam, especially by Imperial Soup armies.  Back in previous editions, certain units had a limit on how many of that specific unit type could be taken.  I would propose to make Conscripts a 0 - 1 Troops choice, but to reduce spamability, restrict it to a Battalion or Brigade detachment only.

 

Anyways, these are just a couple of ideas that I have been kicking around in my head since they got hit by the nerf bat.  Please feel free to discuss, tweak, ignore, or laugh at as you see fit.

[zero88]

Make the Multilaser Rapid Fire 3. It's so unbearably useless and is one the signature "Guard only" weapons. Maybe give it a rule too that on a roll of 6+ to wound, it is treated as 2 Damage