Relationship between Roboute Guilliman and Leman Russ

[Azekai]

Personally, I would rather Russ be mutated. 10,000 years in hell changes you. Primarchs aren't immune to that.

I also think twisted werewolves are better than goofy pseudo-fantasy space viking gods, but, hey, what do I know.

[Guest]

Personally, I would rather Russ be mutated. 10,000 years in hell changes you. Primarchs aren't immune to that.

 

I also think twisted werewolves are better than goofy pseudo-fantasy space viking gods, but, hey, what do I know.

 

We don't know how long he's been in there, due to Warp time trickery. We just learned the 13th Company, thats been in there longer than Russ, thinks they've only been in there for like a month or 2. Triszin did a write up on it.

[Guest Triszin]

Personally, I would rather Russ be mutated. 10,000 years in hell changes you. Primarchs aren't immune to that.

 

I also think twisted werewolves are better than goofy pseudo-fantasy space viking gods, but, hey, what do I know.

 

I actually want Russ to be Wulfen touched*.

 

first off, lets describe the Russ I'm talking about.

 

- A Russ that has turned wulfen, but has retained all that he was but has grown wiser with age.

- Magnus and others hinted that Russ was the same as Magnus, a Powerful Psyker.

- with that in mind I want Russ to have Mastered the Runes in the warp, and can pluck the strings of fate not unlike others.

- Russ is wiser, a Counselor, a Seer, yet he is still a monster in Combat.

- His model and statuer should show this, a Mixture of Odin, runelord thor russ and wulfen.

- the model should be terrifying, yet noble.

 

why would I want this? why do I think this would work?

 

- Its a direct contrast to Rob, Rob is from 30k, he is human looking and what most look up to.

- Robs dream is stability and humanity without mutations

- Russ is a Mutant of the Emperor's own design.

- he is monstrous in appearance yet wise and loyal

- while Rob inspires the common folk and shows them hope, advances tech and stabilizes and advances things for good

- Russ will be the monster of imperium to terrifying the imperiums enemies, to show them that they should fear the imperium

 

 

----------

 

by no means am I calling for RUss to be a barbarian or monster.

 

He is a "monster" in his appearance, but he is still a skilled warrior, but he is now more a counselor and a patient commander.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Triszin

[Walter Payton]

I think it would be disrespectful to all the character development of 30k Russ to bring him back in 40k as nothing more than Guilliman's attack dog.  If the whole point of the HH stories is Russ teaching the Wolves to be more than barbarians and discovering that he himself is more than a weapon in the hands of others, having him revert back to "FENRIS KILL SMASH" in the new setting would be pretty lazy.  It would be nice if Studio and Black Library character development meshed together when it comes to Russ.

 

It wouldn't necessarily be unjustifiable, since they can always so "oh well he was fighting Chaos in Hell for 10k years", but I think it would be poor storytelling.

[Ishagu]

I don't think Russ will simply be an attack dog. His lessons were absorbed by the Wolves long ago - they are some of the most reasonable and valiant defenders of the people of the Imperium.

 

The idea of him being a wise, Odin like figure is very appealing - although that wouldn't necessarily make him more adept at navigating the political landscape of the Imperium.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Ishagu

[Guest]

I figure this. Russ comes back as Odin-Russ, yeah maybe a touch of "Wulfen" or barbarian in him still. Though much more mature and thinks his plans out. This is demonstrated in the SW's directly. Russ meets Emperor and challenges someone who he know he can't beat simply because of pride, he is a Blood Claw. Heresy ends Russ now sees his actions have impact and effects, he is a Grey Hunter. He comes back after 10k years as a Long Fang.

 

RG wants everyone to rule and their planets like his. Russ comes as the counter balance saying "you know not everyone wants that, you can't force people to be you. They are them and they want to be them not you. Make their life better the way they want, not what you want" or some such like that. Fenris is a prime example of this He might be the military leader of the Imperium but he will take greater notice of the Imperial Guard unlike his younger year and like the current SW already do.

[Master Commander Ajax]

Russ will come back and have an 'epic' brawl with Guilliman. After this Russ will enthusiastically/begrudgingly endorse Guilliman as the Lord Commander of the Imperium whilst Guilliman will concede that Russ, despite his demeanour is actually a really useful person to have around. Russ will also have to at some point enthusiastically/begrudgingly endorse Primaris Marines despite his initial reservations about them being Guillimans brainchild because they're really, really cool.

[Walter Payton]

Something I always find strange is that people assume that the relationship between Russ and Guilliman was poor simply because they disagreed on the Codex.  It's not been detailed in the HH novels yet, but they had a mutual respect before the Heresy (Guilliman naming Russ among the Dauntless Few, for example), and they basically led the Scouring between them.

[Knight of the Raven]

Speaking of the disagreement over the Codex Astartes. I've always seen people say Russ refused to bow to the breaking down of the Legions because he didn't like anyone beyond the Emperor (and Malcador too I guess) telling him what to do. I've never seen anyone mention another, possibly bigger sore point for Russ: the very reason the Legions (along with every other military organization being separated) were to be broken down.

 

To make sure no leader could sway such a huge part of the Imperium if they turned traitor.

 

I can imagine Russ wasn't particularly enthused to have his loyalty or that of his Space Wolves questioned in such a way, considering he's one of the staunchest sons of the Emperor and takes great pride in it. Is it a coincidence that the only other living primarch who disagreed with as much vehemence as he was Rogal Dorn?

[Bulwyf]

I'd much rather have Russ come back as Odin type Russ than Wulfy McWulferson Russ. I have nothing against Wulfen in a SW army as it makes them stand out and I have plenty in my own SW army. But I don't want Russ running around as one.

[DogWelder]

Guilliman's only shown canon meeting with the Space Wolves wasn't exactly friendly...

 

‘Who have you come to execute, Faffnr Bludbroder?’

Faffnr hesitated. He reached under his pelt and produced a sheaf of parchment.

‘I see no point hiding it,’ he said, holding the document out. ‘Read for yourself, Jarl Guilliman.’

‘No, tell me in your own words.’

Faffnr kept the parchment extended.

‘Look at it at least. See the seal of the Wolf King, and beside it the sigil of Malcador. Know where this instruction comes from, and the authority it contains.’

Guilliman took the document, unfolded it and studied the marks.

‘Authenticate it if you must,’ said Faffnr.

‘I don’t have to. This is real.’

‘You heard the fate that befell Prospero?’ asked the pack-leader.

‘The Wolves were unleashed to issue sanction to Magnus.’

‘Yes. Not so undeserved a reputation after all, eh?’

‘Go on.’

Faffnr paused. In the eye slots of his straked and knotted leather hood, his golden eyes blinked once, twice.

‘If one can fall, more can fall. More have fallen. Half have fallen. It has been decreed that a company of Wolves be sent to the hearth-side of every one of the Emperor’s sons, to watch them.’

‘For what?’ asked Guilliman.

‘For signs of treachery, of heresy.’

‘And if such signs become visible?’

‘Then we are to act.’

‘Act?’ asked Guilliman. ‘You’re saying that you are here to watch me? To shadow me? And if you perceive my actions to be in any way untoward, what? You are authorised to enact sanction?’

‘By the Sigillite, so authorised.’

Guilliman laughed. ‘You would… cut my thread?’

‘If needs be. Primarchs are not invincible. Some already sleep upon the red snow.’

Guilliman raised his hand, indicating that his bodyguard should back down. The Cataphractii had cycled up their weapons at Faffnr’s last response.

‘Faffnr Bludbroder,’ said Guilliman, ‘do you really think that your pack could take me down?’

Faffnr shrugged. ‘Perhaps not. You are Jarl Guilliman and your prowess is the stuff of saga. But we have our duty, and we would try. If you were, say, without your bodyguard and cornered in a room with us–’

‘My dear Faffnr, then you would be cornered in a room with me.’

Faffnr shrugged again.

‘We are the executioner’s sons, Jarl. Even if you took us all, I doubt you’d leave the room whole.”

 

Excerpt From: Dan Abnett. “The Unremembered Empire.” iBooks. 

[karden00]

Uhg. 

God bless Dan Abnett for what he did for the Ultramarines. 

But, unfortunately, that came with Wolves that were better hunters than Scars, and Wolves that felt they could offer a challenge to a Primarch. 

You know, I wouldn't have minded so much, had they been portrayed more along the lines of "Well, this duty sucks. None of us will make it out alive, and none of us would be able to do anything about it, should our 'sanction' be required. Oh well. We do what the Wolf King demands."

Instead, they actually think they could do something about it. 

[Guest]

It sounds like they (SWs) were not happy about being there as they keep stating they were coming on behalf of malcador and Russ, not of their own wishes. Of course they are going to sound confident. If Guilliman was a traitor they wouldn't go in saying "oh no we can't do anything to you. So if you wanted to kill us nothing is stopping you." They want to seem like if Guilliman did attempt to kill them that there would be repercussions.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Uhg. 

God bless Dan Abnett for what he did for the Ultramarines. 

But, unfortunately, that came with Wolves that were better hunters than Scars, and Wolves that felt they could offer a challenge to a Primarch. 

You know, I wouldn't have minded so much, had they been portrayed more along the lines of "Well, this duty sucks. None of us will make it out alive, and none of us would be able to do anything about it, should our 'sanction' be required. Oh well. We do what the Wolf King demands."

Instead, they actually think they could do something about it. 

 

I feel like you're drawing the wrong conclusion from that scene.  Bluff and bluster is part of their culture.  After all, they have an entire caste of mortals whose sole job within the Chapter/Legion is to tell tales of valor and skill at arms.  Bludbroder doesn't waltz into that confrontation secure in the knowledge that he and his pack stand a chance against a Primarch; just look at the caveats he puts to the scenario: alone and cornered, and even then it's couched in the term "perhaps."  Bludbroder is saying that in a situation where the pack has every conceivable advantage. . . maybe they would win.  Compare to when the Alpha Legion actually achieves that situation, and they still lose.

 

The point of the conversation is that Bludbroder's pack knows if it has to enact Malcador's sanction, in all likelihood they're going to die and they're going to fail.  But they're going to make the attempt regardless because one thing they never fail at is following orders.

[Ogun]

I honestly don't think Russ is going to mind Guilliman that much. He won't do anything he doesn't want to, but both he and Guilliman know that is the case. Russ did not agree to the Codex, but in the lore we have so far, it was Dorn and Vulkan who seem to have been the tougher ones to bring round. Russ just seems to have ignored it. I suspect Russ will just let Guilliman get on with things, unless he sees something really threatening to the Emperor. In Prospero Burns, Russ was far more sold on the idea that each of the Primarchs had a specific purpose, and he might well reckon that Guilliman is just fulfilling his. 

 

I'm a bit sceptical that we will see him in 2018 though. GW have just established the new normal (i.e. to the end of the Plague Wars) and all the codexes released so far have been set in that time frame. Unless the SW have been keeping his return uncharacteristically quiet for a century, Russ' return will mark a timeline advance. Bringing loyalist primarchs back is a far bigger narrative event than the traitor ones. After all, it was already well established that Mortarion and Magnus went for the occasional joy ride round the Imperium.

[Frater Cornelius]

I do not think there will be conflicts. Minor tension due to difference of opinion and that is it. Guilliman is the statesman, Russ the warrior. However, what sets Russ apart from Lion is that the former lacked selfish ambitions. Russ cares for humanity and his sons and little else. He first followed orders, but then realized that blind following is bad and became more autonomous, much like the Wolves today. If Russ feels like Guilliman is outright ruining humanity, he will intervene. But given that Russ and G have similar goals, like presenving humanity and so forth, Russ will leave politicing to G while he himself will lead his sons and punch Chaos. Russ may be a barbarian and an animal, but I know exactly what he isn’t: a selfish jerk. In short, it’ll be just fine. Edited December 9, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[deathspectersgt7]

Wow !!!! A Barbarian and a Animal. 

[Sete]

Wow !!!! A Barbarian and a Animal.

Russ is nothing of the sort. It's a part he plays.

 

Despite not being a 40k Wolfy macwolfface fan, 30k depictions so far have been enjoyable.

 

I think they will get along. Their goals will be the same. The way to reach it might differ.

And Primarchs are proud, tensions will happen but I think overall in the narrative they will a boon to one another.

[Claws and Effect]

It all depends on Russ' mindset when he returns. Guilliman will likely be pleased to see the return of one of the Dauntless Few. 

 

There will be arguments I'm sure, as their philosophy differs quite a bit, but at the end of the day they'll stow it and just get on with it. The one trait they share is pragmatism. 

 

Personally, I hope there are plans to bring back more than just the Big 4 on both sides. Guilliman, Lion, and Russ are all well and good, but the other non-Ultramarine Codex chapters shouldn't be left out in the cold. Neither should the non-god-aligned Traitors. 

[Guest Triszin]

Uhg. 

God bless Dan Abnett for what he did for the Ultramarines. 

But, unfortunately, that came with Wolves that were better hunters than Scars, and Wolves that felt they could offer a challenge to a Primarch. 

You know, I wouldn't have minded so much, had they been portrayed more along the lines of "Well, this duty sucks. None of us will make it out alive, and none of us would be able to do anything about it, should our 'sanction' be required. Oh well. We do what the Wolf King demands."

Instead, they actually think they could do something about it. 

there were a few excerpts, I forget where, but Guilliman watched how fast these wolf guard unsheathed and swung there weapons, and He doubted himself thinking that even he, a primarch would be unable to evade such swift and skillfull warriros

[Ishagu]

It's when he sees one Duelling with the Lion, he was certainly impressed.

[deathspectersgt7]

 

Wow !!!! A Barbarian and a Animal.

Russ is nothing of the sort. It's a part he plays.

 

Despite not being a 40k Wolfy macwolfface fan, 30k depictions so far have been enjoyable.

 

I think they will get along. Their goals will be the same. The way to reach it might differ.

And Primarchs are proud, tensions will happen but I think overall in the narrative they will a boon to one another.

 

I know Mate  . It was to a response to another post refering him to said words. . Russ would be the type to have a cold one with . Gman sounds more like a sipper.

[Sete]

I know mate, but it was easier on the eyes quoting you than Cornelius. ;)

[Irbis]

We know that Russ doesn't take orders from Guilliman. He ignored the Codex, but never challenged Guilliman in his position as Lord Commander to my knowledge.

 

I like how this thread has 2 pages yet no one mentioned it's completely wrong. SW were split into chapters, hell, the plan Russ left before he went on trip was to create more SW descendants and plant them all around Eye of Terror to watch for traitor attacks. How is that ignoring the Codex? Only wishful headcanons of SW players who never bothered to read their own fluff go that far...

 

I fail to see how you being a furry affects GW decision.

 

I personally am really skeptical of Wulfen Russ. We have been told multiple times Russ does not have the Wulfen issue. GW also has seen some rather strong outcry against the Wulfen and SWs being too wolfy. They also have reached out to the community directly and indirectly asking for feedback. I will admit I was very worried that the majority of people wanted Wulfen Russ, but my opinion changes after seeing multiple net group state they want Odin Russ.

 

Only time will tell I suppose.

 

Have you ever seen that wolfwolfmurdernought that bites people to death?

 

It's patently obvious from above, never mind other examples like wolf ballerinas or santa sleigh, whoever designs SW range has very little care for sanity or restrained designs. Even their more 'normal' recent characters, like fellhand or redblade, are so ridiculously over the top (despite being line marines) and overdesigned their bling could suffice for several officers in other chapters. Given it, and the design times, I really wouldn't be surprised if they made wulfruss megawulfen model, especially seeing RG fills role of 'buffer' leader, and Russ would be well suited for role of damage dealer. After all, SW are short range, up your face army, and a mini that doesn't support their playstyle wouldn't be very fun to use...

[DogWelder]

I fail to see how you being a furry affects GW decision.

 

I personally am really skeptical of Wulfen Russ. We have been told multiple times Russ does not have the Wulfen issue. GW also has seen some rather strong outcry against the Wulfen and SWs being too wolfy. They also have reached out to the community directly and indirectly asking for feedback. I will admit I was very worried that the majority of people wanted Wulfen Russ, but my opinion changes after seeing multiple net group state they want Odin Russ.

 

Only time will tell I suppose.

 

I think he meant "As a furry Russ doesn't seem likely" as in he was referring to a 'furry Russ' not saying that he was a furry.

 

Not "As a furry, Russ doesn't seem likely"