Relationship between Roboute Guilliman and Leman Russ

[karden00]

I honestly don't think Russ is going to mind Guilliman that much. He won't do anything he doesn't want to, but both he and Guilliman know that is the case. Russ did not agree to the Codex, but in the lore we have so far, it was Dorn and Vulkan who seem to have been the tougher ones to bring round. Russ just seems to have ignored it. I suspect Russ will just let Guilliman get on with things, unless he sees something really threatening to the Emperor. In Prospero Burns, Russ was far more sold on the idea that each of the Primarchs had a specific purpose, and he might well reckon that Guilliman is just fulfilling his. 

 

I'm a bit sceptical that we will see him in 2018 though. GW have just established the new normal (i.e. to the end of the Plague Wars) and all the codexes released so far have been set in that time frame. Unless the SW have been keeping his return uncharacteristically quiet for a century, Russ' return will mark a timeline advance. Bringing loyalist primarchs back is a far bigger narrative event than the traitor ones. After all, it was already well established that Mortarion and Magnus went for the occasional joy ride round the Imperium.

 

 

 

Uhg. 

God bless Dan Abnett for what he did for the Ultramarines. 

But, unfortunately, that came with Wolves that were better hunters than Scars, and Wolves that felt they could offer a challenge to a Primarch. 

You know, I wouldn't have minded so much, had they been portrayed more along the lines of "Well, this duty sucks. None of us will make it out alive, and none of us would be able to do anything about it, should our 'sanction' be required. Oh well. We do what the Wolf King demands."

Instead, they actually think they could do something about it. 

there were a few excerpts, I forget where, but Guilliman watched how fast these wolf guard unsheathed and swung there weapons, and He doubted himself thinking that even he, a primarch would be unable to evade such swift and skillfull warriros

 

@Ogun, I appreciate your perspective, thanks! I have to admit, I certainly read that scene and scoffed, and although I did notice the nuances, I didn't think too much about them because I didn't think the nuances were strong enough. Again, I admit, it wasn't strong enough for my liking, totally subjective. I've understood that any Space Marine should have a deference to a primarch that goes down to the genetic level. 

 

I was going to retort the point that @Triszen made, and I am pleased he picked up on it. I remember Unremembered Empire as being, if not quite full of references to how badass the Wolves are, then at least Abnett didn't pull any punches when it came to highlighting their potency. To the point where Guilliman, a primarch doubted he could follow the swing of a space wolf... ... ... 

 

Honest to goodness, that bothered me so much more than the Alpha Legion scene, which to me seemed plausible and, frankly, more thought out. More thought out than a primarch doubting whether or not a space marine could wing faster than he could see it...

 

I know it is not terribly relevant, but I hope the good mods will let me air that <3

[Guest]

 

We know that Russ doesn't take orders from Guilliman. He ignored the Codex, but never challenged Guilliman in his position as Lord Commander to my knowledge.

 

 

I like how this thread has 2 pages yet no one mentioned it's completely wrong. SW were split into chapters, hell, the plan Russ left before he went on trip was to create more SW descendants and plant them all around Eye of Terror to watch for traitor attacks. How is that ignoring the Codex? Only wishful headcanons of SW players who never bothered to read their own fluff go that far...

 

I fail to see how you being a furry affects GW decision.

I personally am really skeptical of Wulfen Russ. We have been told multiple times Russ does not have the Wulfen issue. GW also has seen some rather strong outcry against the Wulfen and SWs being too wolfy. They also have reached out to the community directly and indirectly asking for feedback. I will admit I was very worried that the majority of people wanted Wulfen Russ, but my opinion changes after seeing multiple net group state they want Odin Russ.

Only time will tell I suppose.

 

 

Have you ever seen that wolfwolfmurdernought that bites people to death? :rolleyes:

 

It's patently obvious from above, never mind other examples like wolf ballerinas or santa sleigh, whoever designs SW range has very little care for sanity or restrained designs. Even their more 'normal' recent characters, like fellhand or redblade, are so ridiculously over the top (despite being line marines) and overdesigned their bling could suffice for several officers in other chapters. Given it, and the design times, I really wouldn't be surprised if they made wulfruss megawulfen model, especially seeing RG fills role of 'buffer' leader, and Russ would be well suited for role of damage dealer. After all, SW are short range, up your face army, and a mini that doesn't support their playstyle wouldn't be very fun to use...

I have see this "SW were meant to surround the eye of terror", buy whenever I ask for a source I get silence. So, I will ask again, source?

 

Russ could still remain human and provide close melee support. I mean he did it in 30k. He also inspired (buffed) his own mean many times.

[Guest Triszin]

I have see this "SW were meant to surround the eye of terror", buy whenever I ask for a source I get silence. So, I will ask again, source?

 

Russ could still remain human and provide close melee support. I mean he did it in 30k. He also inspired (buffed) his own mean many times.

 

It tends to be mentioned alongisde the "Wolf brothers" successor chapter and references.

 

Wolf brothers were to be the first of many successors to surround the Eye of Terror, often the plan was termed " The Sons of Russ ".

 

however I can find no trace as to who planned the " Sons of Russ".

 

Wolf brothers were formed during the 2nd founding, so that means Robute likely had some involvement and considering, in the lore the Wolf brothers took a large % of space wolves assets then It would be assumed that this was approved by Russ and probably planned by Robute.

 

After the failure of the wolf brothers the Inquisition ordered all successors of the space wolves be left on Ice.

 

 

----

sources:

• Champions of Fenris - A Codex: Space Wolves Supplement (7th Edition), pp. 15-27
• Codex: Space Wolves (2nd Edition), pg. 9
• Warhammer 40,000: Apocalypse (4th Edition)
• Battle of the Fang (Novel) by Chris Wraight
• Dead Sky, Black Sun (Novel) by Graham McNeill
• Planetkill, "The Heraclitus Effect," by Graham McNeill

Edited December 9, 2017 by Triszin

[DogWelder]

Here's a direct quote from the mouth of a Wolfpriest:

 

“Not that different. We had a successor: the Wolf Brothers, led by Beor Arjac Grimmaesson. They were to have been as numerous as we were, and as powerful. They were gifted a homeworld, Kaeriol, a planet of ice and fire, just as Fenris is. They had half our fleet, half our armouries, half our Priests. They were to have been the first of many, a whole line of descendant Fenrisian Chapters – the Sons of Russ, capable of carving out a star empire the size of Ultramar. That was the vision: to be powerful enough to encircle the Eye of Terror completely, to prevent the Traitors from daring to leave it ever again. Thus, it was hoped, we would fulfil our destiny and find a new purpose in the Age of the Imperium.’

 

Morek looked up at the skull-mask of the Rune Priest. The visions he was being asked to absorb were coming too quickly. A glimpse of the galaxy was unfolding in his mind, radically different from the one he knew. Though he’d been off-world many times and seen many wonders, this version of reality was the strangest of them all.

 

“They are gone.’

 

‘Destroyed?’

 

‘Not all. Some may yet live, though their wyrd is unknown. They were disbanded, scattered to the six points of the compass. ”

 

 

Excerpt From: Chris Wraight. “Battle of the Fang.” iBooks. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by DogWelder

[Guest]

Thank you for the sources.

 

So maybe the SW were supposed to have successors does not mean we we're going to be codex compliant. It also doesn't mean Russ had approved of these actions. I am curious if Russ comes back, what his stance on everything will be.

 

Edit: Back to subject in hand. I don't for see any open conflict between the two so long as RG doesn't interfere with Russ or Russ doesn't feel like the people are being forced to do things. We have already seen a few planets stand up to RG, which may try to earn Russ favour. I realize RG wants to make things better, but how would you like it if someone came to your house telling you how to live? I know if someone came in telling me to stop sending my kid to foreign language schools and to send her to history academies I would be angry.

 

RG is ambitious not realizing he has to convince civilians and give them time to adjust to change. Russ may have the same resistance if he tells IG generals he wants all IG outfitted with better gear and training, and losing so many in a battle isn't acceptable.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Caldersson

[Marshal Rohr]

Thank you for the sources.

 

So maybe the SW were supposed to have successors does not mean we we're going to be codex compliant. It also doesn't mean Russ had approved of these actions. I am curious if Russ comes back, what his stance on everything will be.

I’m just gonna say it:

 

Space Wolves are tactically Codex Compliant. Organizationally, they are not. They maintain the same assault, tactical, and devastator tactical roles with the various specialists as a normal space marine chapter. That has more to do with models than anything else. Organization is like, the least important chapter in the codex since so many chapters ignore it, alter it, or suffer losses so grievous its impossible to follow. They would not be Codex compliant if they maintained expeditionary auxiliary maneuver forces, dedicated battleships that aren’t also battle barges, air assets beyond transports and close support gunship like bombers and void fighters/bombers, and a whole host of other assets they used to have as a real legion.

 

Everyone follows the codex unless they have the old warcighting capabilities of the legions.

[DogWelder]

Personally I never understood why the Space Marines would even want Battleships over Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers. Seems like a downgrade to me. In the books Space Marine ships utterly massacre conventional navy warships in space combat.

 

In one of the audio dramas a single Flesh Tearer Strike Cruiser makes a takes apart several Grand Cruisers and their escorts and in 'Legion' a single Alpha Legion SC holds off a sizable chunk of Battlefleet Solar by itself.

 

As for void fighters and bombers, the SMs have the Stormhawk Interceptors in huge numbers (going by Gathering Storm which described entire fleets of Ultramarine Stormhawks engaged in void combat over Macragge).

Edited December 10, 2017 by DogWelder

[Marshal Rohr]

Personally I never understood why the Space Marines would even want Battleships over Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers. Seems like a downgrade to me. In the books Space Marine ships utterly massacre conventional navy warships in space combat.

 

In one of the audio dramas a single Flesh Tearer Strike Cruiser makes a takes apart several Grand Cruisers and their escorts and in 'Legion' a single Alpha Legion SC holds off a sizable chunk of Battlefleet Solar by itself.

 

As for void fighters and bombers, the SMs have the Stormhawk Interceptors in huge numbers (going by Gathering Storm which described entire fleets of Ultramarine Stormhawks engaged in void combat over Macragge).

 

That would be an inconsistent representation of the strike cruiser's capabilities, as laid out in Badab War Vol. 1, Horus Heresy Vol. 3, and the older BFG sourcebooks, where even the Gothic Sector specific variants of the Emperor, Apocalypse, Retribution, etc are more than capable of damaging and outright destroying a strike cruiser. Your preference for other lore might supersede those sources I'm referencing. 

[DogWelder]

 

Personally I never understood why the Space Marines would even want Battleships over Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers. Seems like a downgrade to me. In the books Space Marine ships utterly massacre conventional navy warships in space combat.

 

In one of the audio dramas a single Flesh Tearer Strike Cruiser makes a takes apart several Grand Cruisers and their escorts and in 'Legion' a single Alpha Legion SC holds off a sizable chunk of Battlefleet Solar by itself.

 

As for void fighters and bombers, the SMs have the Stormhawk Interceptors in huge numbers (going by Gathering Storm which described entire fleets of Ultramarine Stormhawks engaged in void combat over Macragge).

 

That would be an inconsistent representation of the strike cruiser's capabilities, as laid out in Badab War Vol. 1, Horus Heresy Vol. 3, and the older BFG sourcebooks, where even the Gothic Sector specific variants of the Emperor, Apocalypse, Retribution, etc are more than capable of damaging and outright destroying a strike cruiser. Your preference for other lore might supersede those sources I'm referencing. 

 

 

Huh. Then there might be a inconsistency between the game books and the novels there then. 

[Marshal Rohr]

The sources I mentioned are more lore, not so much rules. Definitely a discrepency in the novels though, where ships have plot armor like characters. Edited December 10, 2017 by Marshal Rohr

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Here's a direct quote from the mouth of a Wolfpriest:

 

“Not that different. We had a successor: the Wolf Brothers, led by Beor Arjac Grimmaesson. They were to have been as numerous as we were, and as powerful. They were gifted a homeworld, Kaeriol, a planet of ice and fire, just as Fenris is. They had half our fleet, half our armouries, half our Priests. They were to have been the first of many, a whole line of descendant Fenrisian Chapters – the Sons of Russ, capable of carving out a star empire the size of Ultramar. That was the vision: to be powerful enough to encircle the Eye of Terror completely, to prevent the Traitors from daring to leave it ever again. Thus, it was hoped, we would fulfil our destiny and find a new purpose in the Age of the Imperium.’

 

Morek looked up at the skull-mask of the Rune Priest. The visions he was being asked to absorb were coming too quickly. A glimpse of the galaxy was unfolding in his mind, radically different from the one he knew. Though he’d been off-world many times and seen many wonders, this version of reality was the strangest of them all.

 

“They are gone.’

 

‘Destroyed?’

 

‘Not all. Some may yet live, though their wyrd is unknown. They were disbanded, scattered to the six points of the compass. ”

 

 

Excerpt From: Chris Wraight. “Battle of the Fang.” iBooks. 

 

Thing is though, how much can we believe Wyrmblade? As far as I'm aware, he's the only source for these 'grand plan' ideas. That's certainly his view, but he's also the guy behind the Tempering, which Bjorn was fully convinced Russ would not have approved of. So I'd say it's currently a stretch to infer anything about Russ' plans for the Legion/Chapter from the views of a such a maverick.

 

 

Personally I never understood why the Space Marines would even want Battleships over Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers. Seems like a downgrade to me. In the books Space Marine ships utterly massacre conventional navy warships in space combat.

 

In one of the audio dramas a single Flesh Tearer Strike Cruiser makes a takes apart several Grand Cruisers and their escorts and in 'Legion' a single Alpha Legion SC holds off a sizable chunk of Battlefleet Solar by itself.

 

As for void fighters and bombers, the SMs have the Stormhawk Interceptors in huge numbers (going by Gathering Storm which described entire fleets of Ultramarine Stormhawks engaged in void combat over Macragge).

 

That would be an inconsistent representation of the strike cruiser's capabilities, as laid out in Badab War Vol. 1, Horus Heresy Vol. 3, and the older BFG sourcebooks, where even the Gothic Sector specific variants of the Emperor, Apocalypse, Retribution, etc are more than capable of damaging and outright destroying a strike cruiser. Your preference for other lore might supersede those sources I'm referencing. 

 

GW? Inconsistent in fluff representations? Perish the thought!

 

If I was feeling charitable, I'd be tempted to put this down to 'Schrodinger's Strike Craft', just like some authors struggle to distinguish between bolters and bolt pistols (sometimes on a page by page basis), there's sometimes a blurring between Strike Cruisers (which, being cruiser weight, shouldn't really be tangling with Battleships) and Battle Barges (which generally can, being Battleships themselves). In fact, isn't that lampshaded in one of the early Cain books?

[Guest]

 

Thank you for the sources.

So maybe the SW were supposed to have successors does not mean we we're going to be codex compliant. It also doesn't mean Russ had approved of these actions. I am curious if Russ comes back, what his stance on everything will be.

I’m just gonna say it:

Space Wolves are tactically Codex Compliant. Organizationally, they are not. They maintain the same assault, tactical, and devastator tactical roles with the various specialists as a normal space marine chapter. That has more to do with models than anything else. Organization is like, the least important chapter in the codex since so many chapters ignore it, alter it, or suffer losses so grievous its impossible to follow. They would not be Codex compliant if they maintained expeditionary auxiliary maneuver forces, dedicated battleships that aren’t also battle barges, air assets beyond transports and close support gunship like bombers and void fighters/bombers, and a whole host of other assets they used to have as a real legion.

Everyone follows the codex unless they have the old warcighting capabilities of the legions.

Even the legions had tactical roles like that of 40k. The codex also limits what each role can take another thing the SWs ignore.

 

SW also have their version of the IG, known as Kaerls. Though not as fully developed, probably due to lack of funding from the Imperium to stave off the SW approach to being a legion. Which IIRC they do use fighters for space ops. In Arjac Rockfist novel they had access to much equipment while the SW were away.

 

So I am not sure where you make the divide between codex compliant, partially compliant and non-compliance. Especially since GW official stance is SW are non-compliance.

[Marshal Rohr]

I thought I was pretty clear. Organizationally they are not compliant. They exceed the 1000 man limit. That really doesn’t exist anymore, so now they have Primaris and are above normal chapter sized, which makes them more like Codex marines than ever before, since Codex marines do not have the thousand man limit any more. Tactically, marines are the same as any other marine chapter. The legions has a few similar roles for squads, but obviously the legions were far more diverse in maneuver units and capabilities.

[Guest]

where are you getting this info codex marines can exceed 1000 man limit? In Dark Imperium it was one of the controversies that RG did. He then separated the Primaries chapters into 1000 strong. We also don't know what capacity SW use their Primaris, they could be decked out with lascannons and chainswords instead of standard primaris load outs.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Caldersson

[Marshal Rohr]

where are you getting this info codex marines can exceed 1000 man limit? In Dark Imperium it was one of the controversies that RG did. He then separated the Primaries chapters into 1000 strong. We also don't know what capacity SW use their Primaris, they could be decked out with lascannons and chainswords instead of standard primaris load outs.

Well considering every other chapter got them exactly like every other chapter and the unique boxes are just shoulder pads and heads, we can extrapolate the wolves might not get what you describe because that makes no sense.

[Guest]

 

where are you getting this info codex marines can exceed 1000 man limit? In Dark Imperium it was one of the controversies that RG did. He then separated the Primaries chapters into 1000 strong. We also don't know what capacity SW use their Primaris, they could be decked out with lascannons and chainswords instead of standard primaris load outs.

Well considering every other chapter got them exactly like every other chapter and the unique boxes are just shoulder pads and heads, we can extrapolate the wolves might not get what you describe because that makes no sense.

 

 

You are talking table top not fluff though. Table top does not always match fluff and fluff does not always match table top. Example a inceptor on the fluff was able to easily bash in a couple CSM heads, something that in the table top would not be so easy. Repulsor Tanks dropped from orbit, something that it can't do in table top. Repulsor also makes hamburger meat out of a CSM that dives under it, again not something the table top can't do.

 

 

Anyways this is getting out of hand, and I mean no offense so don't take any (I'm just rather blunt when I type/talk). I think it may be best we take this into PM's if you wish, as to not deter the thread anymore.

[Urriak Urruk]

I thought I was pretty clear. Organizationally they are not compliant. They exceed the 1000 man limit. That really doesn’t exist anymore, so now they have Primaris and are above normal chapter sized, which makes them more like Codex marines than ever before, since Codex marines do not have the thousand man limit any more. Tactically, marines are the same as any other marine chapter. The legions has a few similar roles for squads, but obviously the legions were far more diverse in maneuver units and capabilities.

 

The 1,000 size limit to a chapter has not disappeared (to my knowledge, I read Dark Imperium and it wasn't mentioned there).

 

50% of the Primaris were originally made up into the "Unnumbered Sons" or "Greyshields," which  were apparently broken up into 9 legion sized armies for the Indomitus Crusade (which is kind of insane, that's as many as 3.5 million Primaris).

 

But during the crusade the Greyshields would diminish both to casualties and troops being sent to replenish established chapters (to bring them back to 1,000 strong, not over). By the end of the crusade only 20,000 Greyshields were left, and they were broken up into new chapters or sent to ones needing replenishment.

 

Pretty sure the Space Wolves were hit so hard by Magnus anyway they're probably under the 1,000 limit anyway.

[b1soul]

He's saying that he expects a furry, mutated Russ, not that he is a furry haha

[Guest]

He's saying that he expects a furry, mutated Russ, not that he is a furry haha

 

I was just teasing him, the sentence structure just seemed to taunt me to do it. I swear the sentence made me do it!

[Ogun]

 

I thought I was pretty clear. Organizationally they are not compliant. They exceed the 1000 man limit. That really doesn’t exist anymore, so now they have Primaris and are above normal chapter sized, which makes them more like Codex marines than ever before, since Codex marines do not have the thousand man limit any more. Tactically, marines are the same as any other marine chapter. The legions has a few similar roles for squads, but obviously the legions were far more diverse in maneuver units and capabilities.

 

The 1,000 size limit to a chapter has not disappeared (to my knowledge, I read Dark Imperium and it wasn't mentioned there).

 

50% of the Primaris were originally made up into the "Unnumbered Sons" or "Greyshields," which  were apparently broken up into 9 legion sized armies for the Indomitus Crusade (which is kind of insane, that's as many as 3.5 million Primaris).

 

But during the crusade the Greyshields would diminish both to casualties and troops being sent to replenish established chapters (to bring them back to 1,000 strong, not over). By the end of the crusade only 20,000 Greyshields were left, and they were broken up into new chapters or sent to ones needing replenishment.

 

Pretty sure the Space Wolves were hit so hard by Magnus anyway they're probably under the 1,000 limit anyway.

 

 

I suspect they were not 'height of power' legion sized. 3.5 million would be pretty insane. I think the figure of tens of thousands of Primaris being stored on Cawl's Ark Mechanicus was mentioned (will have to try and find where), and Cawl was waking them up in batches as the Indomitus Crusade progressed. (I'm guessing it took time to mass produce their gear). 

The Wolves were pretty badly mauled. Two of their Great Companies were wiped out on Cadia and that was after Magnus' shenanigans.When Chris Wraight produced Battle of the Fang he said that the 32nd Millenium Wolves were down to about 2000. I don't know if there has been another indication about their size since then? Definitely larger than 1000 though.

[Ishagu]

I think there's probably around 1 million Primaris, and the chapter limits are not being enforced although chapters at around 1k strength aren't being re-enforced.

 

Guilliman wants the chapters to work together more closely and operate similar to the old Legions however without a centralised chain of command. He sees the divisions that have grown amongst the various chapters, general forces and planets in the Imperium as a great weakness enemies have exploited for millennia.

[DuskRaider]

Ever seen Old Yeller? That.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think there's probably around 1 million Primaris, and the chapter limits are not being enforced although chapters at around 1k strength aren't being re-enforced.

 

Guilliman wants the chapters to work together more closely and operate similar to the old Legions however without a centralised chain of command. He sees the divisions that have grown amongst the various chapters, general forces and planets in the Imperium as a great weakness enemies have exploited for millennia.

“I want them to be more like the legions without anything anything that actually made them legions”

 

-Roboute Guilliman, 100.M42

[Ishagu]

He wants them to function as more unified forces with greater cooperation.

 

The legions were made of individual chapters that functioned as a cohesive force. This should still be possible even if the chapters are now autonomous.

[Marshal Rohr]

He wants them to function as more unified forces with greater cooperation.

 

The legions were made of individual chapters that functioned as a cohesive force. This should still be possible even if the chapters are now autonomous.

 

That's incorrect, but this isn't the place to discuss it. It isn't about autonomous chapters.