Relationship between Roboute Guilliman and Leman Russ

[Ishagu]

In Dark Imperium he's literally setting out to bridge the gap between chapters and has marines from different forces to work as large cohesive armies. I'm just saying the book stresses these points. He even mentions that the divisions within the Imperium have made it weak. Edited December 11, 2017 by Ishagu

[Marshal Rohr]

In Dark Imperium he's literally setting out to bridge the gap between chapters and has marines from different forces to work as large cohesive armies. I'm just saying the book stresses these points. He even mentions that the divisions within the Imperium have made it weak.

 

 

Yeah, I've got a lot to say about this. Start a new thread and I'll lay it out there. 

[totgeboren]

*edited, can't figure out how to delete post*

Edited December 11, 2017 by totgeboren

[Dark_Master]

Agreed assigning the watch pack to Kurze was suicide.

Has this been written about? Surely the wolf packs were post Nostromo

 

DM

[Ogun]

 

Agreed assigning the watch pack to Kurze was suicide.

Has this been written about? Surely the wolf packs were post Nostromo

 

DM

 

 

Yes, a Christian Dunn short. It is in The Silent War anthology I think.

The Nostromo story has been fleshed out a little bit from its old IA incarnation. The destruction was actually several decades before the Heresy and the Night Lords were not actually declared renegades as a result. Nick Kyme's Artifacts short story does most of the explaining.

[bluntblade]

 

 

Guilliman hated the watch pack keeping an eye on him. Russ wouldn't be in a position to assign one to him, and xenos psykers are no more suspicious than prolonged warp exposure.

Is that later on, I got the impression from unremembered empire that Guilliman really didn't mind them much, except being a little embarrassed when he is meeting with a certain brother. Just curious?

 

 

Weren't the Watch Packs sent out by Malcador? Pretty sure they weren't a unilateral move by Russ.

I could be very wrong about this as my memory is hazy about this. I thought the knights errant and the watch packs were designed by both malcador and Russ together.

According to the lexicanum, references to the reason for dispatching of watch packs are found in the short story Howl of the Hearthworld and the audio drama Hunter's Moon.

 

From the posts of fellow B&Cers I read here, Rogal Dorn (who according to some Forge World seminar would be the one who would never, in any circumstances, turn from the Emperor) got one to avoid outraged musings about playing favorites, and they were more intended as 'canaries' whose ceased reports would confirm a primarch's betrayal than as executionners with any actual chance to kill the disloyal primarch in question.

 

I'm not sure why Malcador expected the watch pack sent to Kurze to survive long enough to send as much as one report though. They'd have been killed for sports under an hour even if Kurze never intended to turn on the Emperor.

I think it was more of a political move to send them to Kruze and to their deaths. Send them to everyone who wasn't confirmed traitor so that someone like the Khan, Lion, or Guilliman don't feel picked on.

There's a great story to be written about the Scars watch pack finding a single brotherhood and then having to weather the Heresy together

[b1soul]

@bluntblade

"There's a great story to be written about the Scars watch pack finding a single brotherhood and then having to weather the Heresy together"

 

Wraight should make this happen. Preferably a far-flung brotherhood who couldn't rejoin the legion.

[Anarnii]

 

 

Uhg.

God bless Dan Abnett for what he did for the Ultramarines.

But, unfortunately, that came with Wolves that were better hunters than Scars, and Wolves that felt they could offer a challenge to a Primarch.

You know, I wouldn't have minded so much, had they been portrayed more along the lines of "Well, this duty sucks. None of us will make it out alive, and none of us would be able to do anything about it, should our 'sanction' be required. Oh well. We do what the Wolf King demands."

Instead, they actually think they could do something about it.

I feel like you're drawing the wrong conclusion from that scene. Bluff and bluster is part of their culture. After all, they have an entire caste of mortals whose sole job within the Chapter/Legion is to tell tales of valor and skill at arms. Bludbroder doesn't waltz into that confrontation secure in the knowledge that he and his pack stand a chance against a Primarch; just look at the caveats he puts to the scenario: alone and cornered, and even then it's couched in the term "perhaps." Bludbroder is saying that in a situation where the pack has every conceivable advantage. . . maybe they would win. Compare to when the Alpha Legion actually achieves that situation, and they still lose.

 

The point of the conversation is that Bludbroder's pack knows if it has to enact Malcador's sanction, in all likelihood they're going to die and they're going to fail. But they're going to make the attempt regardless because one thing they never fail at is following orders.

Currently re-reading vengeful spirit and I disagree, I think a watch pack could kill a primarch in the right situation, especially RG as he is on the lower end of the combat scale by primarch standards.

 

Basically Horus is performing a ship boarding action against some ultramarines. About 25 marines let by a centurion read Horus in combat. Then centurion manages to cut through horus’s armour and draw blood.

 

It says:

“Against so many sublime warriors even a primarch could be brought down. Primarchs were functionally immortal but they weren’t invulnerable”

 

So given this is in the context of full armour Horus vs standard ultra marines, I think the elite of the legion designed to kill other marines (wolves) against a weaker combat primarch (especially if not in armour, like the alphas in unremembered empire) would have a chance.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Anarnii

[karden00]

I think we can all agree that at a minimum, there is a wealth of data that can tell us a few things for certain.

1) Primarchs, though extremely potent, cannot be invulnerable, or else the plot armour would be comically overdone. There would never be any stakes and any battle with a Primarch would be a forgone conclusion.

2) All respect to the BL team, but this late in the game, I think it’s fair to say that there doesn’t seem to be a lot of consensus when it comes to the limitations of a Primarch’s abilities/survivabilities. In most of the cases where we see Primarch’s vs Marines, there seems to often be a lot of nuances at play, and factors that influence outcomes. But how do we go from RG (who I am sorry, all fanboy aside, is Not on the lower end in terms of Primarch standards) not knowing if he could’ve followed the swing of a SW, to an UM centurion wounding Horus of all people, to Corax lighting up the Gal Vorback like it’s nobodies business, to Fulgrim beating Avatars and Grav Tanks, to Curze running circles around Wolves, Scars, UM, DA, BA, etc.

 

Maybe it’s better this way? Maybe it’s better that exact abilities and limits are not strictly defined, but Primarch’s fulfil the role the plot demands of them, and are rather elastic as a result.

[Sete]

If Alpha Legion didn't kill Guilliman, it would not be the wolves.

[DogWelder]

To be honest Guilliman was pretty much dead in the Alpha Legion Assasination scene. The only thing that saved him was the final assassin taking time to gloat.

 

Their exchange told him plenty. It placed them. Sound and relative angle. He knew, without having to see, that two were coming around the desk to his left, and one to his right.

He went to the left. He came around the desk firing. One kill, solid, a head shot, a red fog. A second, two through the chest.

Something ran into him from behind. His mouth opened wide, a silent howl, as he felt the sharp, cold bite of a gladius blade punching through his back-plate armour and running in under his ribs. It stayed there. It was wedged. Guilliman wheeled and smashed his gauntleted left fist into the face of the swordsman.

The Ultramarine was somersaulted backwards by the force of the blow. He hit the windows face first, upside down. Despite the cobweb cracks, the glass did not break. The man dropped in a heap on the floor beneath them.

Guilliman turned to track the remaining killers. The damned gladius was still stuck through him. He–

At least two shells struck his left shoulder armour behind his ear and detonated. He felt as though his head had snapped off to the right with the shockwave. He felt heat and ferocious pain. He tasted blood and fyceline, his ears ringing, his vision gone.

He fell. He couldn’t get up. He was half propped against the desk or an overturned chair.

He couldn’t see. He fired blind. It was pointless. He fired again.

He felt a blade against his throat.

‘Death to the false Emperor,’ said the voice Guilliman had thought belonged to Aeonid Thiel.

‘Let me die knowing what you are,’ Guilliman whispered.

“A laugh.

‘Your killer.’

‘What else? What else are you?’

‘I am Alpharius,’ said Thiel.

Then the hateful rumours from Isstvan, of treacherous masquerade and false colours, were true. The Alpha Legion would employ any means. The deception through which this execution had been accomplished, the impeccable covert approach, it made sense. Guilliman had never had any martial respect for the elusive, cowardly tactics of the youngest Legion, but this had been superlative.

‘One thing you should learn from this moment, servant of the Alpha Legion,’ Guilliman said. ‘When you have to murder a primarch, and you get one at your mercy, do not waste the moment answering his questions when he still has a bolter in his hand.

Guilliman fired. ‘Thiel’ was thrown away from him by the force of the point-blank shot. The assassin’s blade left a deep scratch across Guilliman’s exposed throat. Blood welled.

He rose to his feet, unsteady. His clouded vision began to return. He saw the last assassin, the one whose hand he had chopped off, crawling across the high chamber floor, struggling to find a boltgun.

‘Enough,’ Guilliman said, and shot him through the back of the head. Then he dropped to his knees and realised how tired he was.

 

Excerpt From: Dan Abnett. “The Unremembered Empire.” iBooks. 

 

 

[Ishagu]

The unremembered empire is very inconsistent. Unfortunately Abnett books follow Abnett lore sometimes.

 

In Gaunts Ghost novells, imperial guard Las guns frequently 1 shot chaos Marines :-/

[DogWelder]

The unremembered empire is very inconsistent. Unfortunately Abnett books follow Abnett lore sometimes.

 

In Gaunts Ghost novells, imperial guard Las guns frequently 1 shot chaos Marines :-/

 

I mean you have to remember that Guilliman is wearing nothing but ceremonial armor and fabric/silk in that scene. Plus the Alpha Legion Squad was selected from its Legion's elite and specially trained/equipped to take on a Primarch in that very specific situation.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yes, it’s a little known fact Primarch skin is actually bolt proof.

[Biscuittzz]

 

The unremembered empire is very inconsistent. Unfortunately Abnett books follow Abnett lore sometimes.

 

In Gaunts Ghost novells, imperial guard Las guns frequently 1 shot chaos Marines :-/

 

I mean you have to remember that Guilliman is wearing nothing but ceremonial armor and fabric/silk in that scene. Plus the Alpha Legion Squad was selected from its Legion's elite and specially trained/equipped to take on a Primarch in that very specific situation.

 

 

Should've been trained not to gloat.......

[Guest]

well this has devolved from "Russ and RG relationship" to "Can SM kill Primarchs".

 

I think we really have to just wait to be honest. Russ has been gone for 10k years, maybe a week or a million years in the warp, so we don't know how he has changed. There is still a debate within the SW alone of whether Russ will be Wulfen Russ or Odin Russ or maybe something else. GW can have their way with Russ and any primarchs (except maybe RG and Lion as they have been in stasis/sleep and thus no personality changes).

 

If Russ comes back as Wulfen Russ, I can see RG trying to hide him away from the Imperium and sight. The last thing he needs is the Imperium to lose faith in the Primarchs, seeing a Primarch become a Wulfen would do just that. It would show that Primarchs are corruptible and thus no one is safe from Chaos, not even RG. I can also see him putting strict sanctions on the SW's and maybe even forcing Cawl to remove the Canis Helix, like how RG originally wanted to. 

 

If Russ comes back as Odin Russ, I can see Russ being more involved with the Imperium and its rulings. This may cause confrontation with RG as Russ will want to do thing his way which differs vastly from RG. They both want better for the Imperium but there are many ways towards that goal. I am not saying outright civil war, but more arguments at the table. I am not sure how Russ would respond to Primaris. I imagine that as long as their geneseed is "clean" and he can outfit and organize them how he wants he won't have a problem with them. A big source of confrontation I can see is how RG has pretty much replaced the Emperor and retains his 500-world micro empire. Something Russ was not keen on.

[b1soul]

@Anarnii

"the legion designed to kill other marines"

 

This claim has never been substantiated

 

He felt a blade against his throat.

‘Death to the false Emperor,’ said the voice Guilliman had thought belonged to Aeonid Thiel.

‘Let me die knowing what you are,’ Guilliman whispered.

“A laugh.

‘Your killer.’

‘What else? What else are you?’

‘I am Alpharius,’ said Thiel.

Then the hateful rumours from Isstvan, of treacherous masquerade and false colours, were true. The Alpha Legion would employ any means. The deception through which this execution had been accomplished, the impeccable covert approach, it made sense. Guilliman had never had any martial respect for the elusive, cowardly tactics of the youngest Legion, but this had been superlative.

‘One thing you should learn from this moment, servant of the Alpha Legion,’ Guilliman said. ‘When you have to murder a primarch, and you get one at your mercy, do not waste the moment answering his questions when he still has a bolter in his hand.

 

It really is funny how the AL gloats and then Guilliman reverse gloats with a mini-speech about how not to murder a primarch

[Claws and Effect]

@Anarnii

"the legion designed to kill other marines"

 

This claim has never been substantiated

 

He felt a blade against his throat.

‘Death to the false Emperor,’ said the voice Guilliman had thought belonged to Aeonid Thiel.

‘Let me die knowing what you are,’ Guilliman whispered.

“A laugh.

‘Your killer.’

‘What else? What else are you?’

‘I am Alpharius,’ said Thiel.

Then the hateful rumours from Isstvan, of treacherous masquerade and false colours, were true. The Alpha Legion would employ any means. The deception through which this execution had been accomplished, the impeccable covert approach, it made sense. Guilliman had never had any martial respect for the elusive, cowardly tactics of the youngest Legion, but this had been superlative.

‘One thing you should learn from this moment, servant of the Alpha Legion,’ Guilliman said. ‘When you have to murder a primarch, and you get one at your mercy, do not waste the moment answering his questions when he still has a bolter in his hand.

 

It really is funny how the AL gloats and then Guilliman reverse gloats with a mini-speech about how not to murder a primarch

Kinda makes sense, actually.

 

The Legionaire was arrogant enough to gloat. That means he was also arrogant enough to listen to the response, figuring that he had already won.

 

Guilliman used the few seconds while he was talking to line up his bolter for a guaranteed kill shot.

[Guest]

@Anarnii

"the legion designed to kill other marines"

This claim has never been substantiated

 

Wasn't there a scene where RG actually sees SW training to fight other SM and the thought disappointed him that SW could even think about fighting their cousins.

 

It is also pointed out by Fulgrim (iirc) that he knew what the wolves did to the second and would not let the same happen to his legion.