DC vs X vs SG

[Brother Talarian]

Hello everyone,

 

I've been considering starting a small BA for the longest time, primarily for it's two unique and wonderful units - DC and SG.

 

I've read a lot of folks saying that DC just done cut it. Or that you should either get DC or SG but not both.

 

Would anyone care to elaborate? They both seem like fantastic units.

 

My small contingent of BA would likely consist of some DC, SG to taste. The models are too cool to pass up, and their rules seem great

[Kasper_Hawser]

Just got 3 words for you.

 

Synergy

Synergy

Synergy

 

Both SG and X are strong but not on their own. SG have better saves but fewer attacks on the charge. Death Company have a lot of attacks on the charge, and also have a marginal 6+ feel no pain even against mortal wounds. I'm also told they are cheaper than before, definitely cheaper than SG. 4 Attacks on charge even with just a chainsword is nothing to sneer at, especially with your current "Red Thirst" which almost functions like Furious Charge.

 

SG on the other hand synergizes with your warlord, getting rerolls even f it isn't Dante. Also has two wounds and effectively force weapons all dealing D3 damage. the downside is no invuln but even a Melta shot you can still save on 6+.

 

My personal opinion? X should be cheaper and can have more bodies. Also with Astorath, they NEVER have to take leadership tests. Much cooler looking as well, I think the SG overdo their aesthethic with nipple armour and metal feather wings

[The Unseen]

They excel at killing different things, and generally require enough support characters to make them worth the investment that taking both just isn't feasible at a 2k or below game is all.

 

DC can mulch chaff units really well still, but will struggle to crack really tough targets, and Sanguinary Guard excel at killing monsters and hqs with their multi damage weapons, but don't have the attacks to kill weaker targets en mass.

 

So basically, build around one of them, and take support units that can handle what they can't.

Sanguinary Guard love to have horde clearing units backing them up, DC desperately need something else to pop transports for them.

[Brother Crimson]

In terms of synergy I think the guards can have great synergy on their own. They reroll hits next to your warlord and if you take the sanguinary ancient as it he gives reroll to wounds one 1 as well. Give the guy banner of sacrifice and you have flying terminators with rerolls and fnp 5+.

 

However as most multi wound elite, they fall to plasma.

[Thoridon]

DC have the highest potential damage output with the extra charge attack. Equip enough thunder hammers and they'll beat SG at killing monsters/vehicles (the flat 3 damage beats all the SG D3 options). If you want to focus on clearing basic infantry there are various options, of which bolter+chainsword is both cheap and very effective. Whichever target type you equip them for, you need to position them to get a good charge off and knowing that they won't survive too long if caught in the open following that.

 

SG are potentially more durable with 2W each and a 2+ save but as has been mentioned those 2W won't mean much if hit by a bunch of 2D+ weaponry. Against massed small arms fire each model can survive better though. Their base damage potential is lower, lacking the Black Rage and all melee weapons being D3, but they are a popular focus for character buffs. They don't have a cheap equipment option, power fist being joint cheapest and the angelus boltgun being the same cost as a storm bolter, so they're not too far behind terminators in cost after weapons are factored in.

 

VV can be a sort of mix of the two. They have access to one thing the other elite units don't; Storm Shields. If you expect to get hit by a bunch of high AP weaponry, whether big monsters in melee or a bunch of melta/plasma shots, that 3++ invul save can be very nice. Again, they would lack the extra attack of DC on the charge but should survive better if a big nasty thing hits them back. That storm shield would do nothing against massed small arms fire though, so it's only going to make them more durable if you're facing plenty of weapons with AP.

 

Each unit has its uses and common character support. A big basic DC unit with Astorath seems popular for plowing through chaff with the morale immunity and rerolls. On the drop, Lemartes gives a DC unit more chance of charging after deep strike. SG are commonly seen with 2-3 characters as an expensive focus (Banner, Priest, Sanguinor being the popular 3). VV are often seen as being an independent option but can play very differently with character support. Company Vets have been an option to gain the character bodyguard rule but they could be on rough ground if they've lost jump pack access and may in the future be relegated to protecting walking characters.

 

I love DC but I know they're more of a glass cannon so you have to make the most of them when you charge. I also like SG after their slight points drop and boost from the chapter tactic. Different units, different roles, both can quite easily be used together in a list.

[Damon Nightman]

You could kit out the D.C. to be cheap infantry killers unsupported and have the SG supported with characters go after better stuff... or take a small unit of SG to run around unsupported while you buff up the DC... probably not the most comptetive, but I think you could make it work :) Edited December 6, 2017 by Brother Lemartes

[Kasper_Hawser]

Not sure if anyone has tried DC on foot lately, transported around by Rhinos. I think they would make a good and resilient objective grabber, certainly stronger than any other troop in the game. But that would be using them like troops, which is not their specialty.

 

remember play objectives. Just because they are Death company doesn't mean they HAVE to mulch everything to win the game.

[Panzer]

tl;dr

Those units are good for very similar things but with different flavours and taking any of them together with proper character support is too expensive to take another of them normally.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Best advice to OP is run whichever you like in a formation supporting your IG models or vice versa.

I think that will be your best way forward rather than pure BA. (Especially as you start collecting)

 

Perhaps pick a good character to go with SangGuard.

I think SangGuard bring an IG army the most bang for your buck from a Blood Angels perspective as you already have mulitple avail ways to clear chaff via mortars etc.

If you are liking VV best consider also some of the other chapter traits on offer to compliment your abilities. - Red Thirst is damned good tho.

 

---

If you are going BA exclusively, I am not ready to give a final answer yet.

Wanna spend some time with my book and figure things out next week.

 

But for sake of discussion I am inclined to feel:

 

I will definately use the SG as the models are awesome and I have waited so long for them not to suck anymore.

Jury is still out on if they are good or just useable and kool now for me.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[tychobi]

Both units fall into a similar category as you have noticed. Elite jump infantry. This category in general is not that strong, it is countered by many common weapons and tactics. Great on paper these units still die to small arms fire and are very cost intensive points wise for their utility.

 

Both units also beg for expensive support characters adding cost without solving the vulnerability issue.

 

My suggestion us to use them but not rely on them as the backbone of your army.

Edited December 6, 2017 by tychobi

[Kasper_Hawser]

Both units fall into a similar category as you have noticed. Elite jump infantry. This category in general is not that strong, it is countered by many common weapons and tactics. Great on paper these units still die to small arms fire and are very cost intensive points wise for their utility.

 

Both units also beg for expensive support characters adding cost without solving the vulnerability issue.

 

My suggestion us to use them but not rely on them as the backbone of your army.

 

I agree. When using SG or DC, the first question you should ask is "how are they going to help my army", which the backbone should still be the Tacticals, Scouts or the new Primaris. 

 

Unless of course you are capable of spamming a full army of DC and SG. then it's going to be an all in one basket list.

[swordofmandulis]

i am going to put the entire sanguinary guard on the table at some point, I doubt it will be super good, but I know it will look amazing and be super fun.

[9x19 Parabellum]

What does the "X" mean in this little discussion?

[Brother Talarian]

What does the "X" mean in this little discussion?

Any other unit, really. I've seen the argument that VV vets do the job as effectively/more etc. Than the other two options.

 

Thank you for the inputs gentlemen.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Brother Talarian

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

X is symbolic of DC ... bad choice IMO .

[Kasper_Hawser]

Yeah a bit confusing. I actually thought X was Death Company until now in regards to this post.

 

Regardless, Talarian, do what you want but my opinion is that your list should be allcomers, not spam material. The only thing you should spam is troops.

[Brother Talarian]

Alright, noted. I didn't realize X meant DC. That's why I wrote out DC.. SG.. and X.

 

I never intended on spamming anything. I was curious about people's opinions on SG, DC and "other". As I've seen a lot of complaining that other units can do the same job as these specialized unites. It would be a shame if this was the case because I think that DC and SG models look great.

 

That said I'll still run a small vanguard detachment and maybe grow into something bigger.

I like the concept of some DC, SG or both together coming in from the skies to help out some IG forces.

[Brother Crimson]

Alright, noted. I didn't realize X meant DC. That's why I wrote out DC.. SG.. and X.

 

I never intended on spamming anything. I was curious about people's opinions on SG, DC and "other". As I've seen a lot of complaining that other units can do the same job as these specialized unites. It would be a shame if this was the case because I think that DC and SG models look great.

 

That said I'll still run a small vanguard detachment and maybe grow into something bigger.

I like the concept of some DC, SG or both together coming in from the skies to help out some IG forces.

 

Out of the two, Sanguinary Guard might be the most "unique". They have a wieird mix of jump pack, force weapons stats, warlord synergy and 2W/2+ save. Their problems was that they were too expensive. A Power fist/Angelus bolgun that was 51 in the index is now 35. 

 

Death company are cool Vanguard vet stat wise, with the ability to have 15 men squad, 2 unique HQ to buff them and a stratagem.

 

Raven Guard can do very similar stuff to what we do with DC with vanguard and Shrike. Shrike allows reroll to hit and charge (like Lemartes) and they can infiltrate them if needed. 

[Panzer]

Alright, noted. I didn't realize X meant DC. That's why I wrote out DC.. SG.. and X.

I never intended on spamming anything. I was curious about people's opinions on SG, DC and "other". As I've seen a lot of complaining that other units can do the same job as these specialized unites. It would be a shame if this was the case because I think that DC and SG models look great.

 

It's fine, the way you wrote it made clear that you are talking about DC, SG and something else. X couldn't stand for DC since you already listed them and it's not like it's common to write X when talking about DC anyway.

[Morticon]

Mostly echoing what people have said. 

 

There are a few concerns though. 

Firstly, for 2 points cheaper you can get double chainsword vanvets.  Same amount of attacks that DC get on the charge, except you're always getting 4.  

If you're running a banner in toe, you're getting a 5+ fnp, rather than a 6+, albeit for models within 6" - so, that changes stuff up. 

I think there are two core strengths to the DC, and would go as far as saying if you're not utilizing them, then you should strongly consider switching to Van Vets. 

The first is making use of the pregame movement strat.  That additional movement is unreal. 

 

The second is making chunky DC squads.  Squads of 12-15 killy BA madmen is stellar.  Their ability to be fielded in bigger squads is really solid. 

 

There is a third, but its situational, and that's the reliance on Lemartes- the reroll for DC is great there. 

 

For points, 7 basic SG come in at 245, while 10 jumpy DC with swords come in at 240.  The DC will lose effectiveness with each wound taken, while the SG will lose with each model- of course this means multiwound weapons hurt more.  So, will depend on a variety of things in your gaming environment. 

[Thoridon]

Dual chain sword VV lose the bolter though. 20 s4 shots (which can be on a different target) before charging is nothing to sneeze at. They do look awesome though! Might have to build some for my flesh tearers...

[Morticon]

Dual chain sword VV lose the bolter though. 20 s4 shots (which can be on a different target) before charging is nothing to sneeze at. They do look awesome though! Might have to build some for my flesh tearers...

 

Yup yup.  But, remember, when you're using the VanVets, you wont be using the move-up strat - which means youre likely to be striking in.  In that case, you dont want to remove casualties to make your charge worse off. 

 

If you're DC that have raged up the board, those 20 shots are great.  

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Since we are talking weapons loadouts...

 

I have seen a few people excited about putting Inferno Pistols @ 9 pts on their DC around the interwebs recently.

I was kinda laughing then started thinking about the Forlorn Hope move perhaps getting one into range to actually use the damned things for once.

 

Made me go Hahaha...Hmmmmm. Maybe... Naaa... Maybe.

I am inclined to think they are still junk but thought I would share.

 

Might be more useful than that hair dryer / hand flamer perhaps?

Edited December 8, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Morticon]

If the advance move is included in the "Forlorn Hope" move,  you will be able to target unit that is as far from their deployment edge as the number you roll on the advance dice. 

With most competitive players bubble wrapping their armies, you're likely to be shooting chaff, though. In pick up games and friendlies, may be worth while having one or two in.  Otherwise, unless you play with loads of LOS blocking terrain, you're done.  

[Panzer]

 

Dual chain sword VV lose the bolter though. 20 s4 shots (which can be on a different target) before charging is nothing to sneeze at. They do look awesome though! Might have to build some for my flesh tearers...

 

Yup yup.  But, remember, when you're using the VanVets, you wont be using the move-up strat - which means youre likely to be striking in.  In that case, you dont want to remove casualties to make your charge worse off. 

 

If you're DC that have raged up the board, those 20 shots are great.  

 

That's why you'd be shooting at a different target of course.

Imo it's not worth it to replace a Boltgun with a Chainsword.

Edited December 8, 2017 by sfPanzer