Post-Codex - Are the Archangels viable yet?

[Kolyarut]

So it looks like we have a few ways of getting in close in the new book, which I love, but my other chief issue with the Index has been the colossal cost of Terminators (especially compared to, say, Agressors). I’ve seen lots of talk about Codex improving the Death Company, Sanguinary Guard and Librarians, but not so much about our 1st Company.

 

Once points changes and stratagems are factored in, are we back to a point where our Terminators are worth fielding again? Or are they still a glass cannon that melts when hit by psykers and rapid fire, who can’t earn their points back?

 

I’m still desperate to finish up the other half of my Space Hulk models but need some faith that they’ll be fieldable if I do!

[Karhedron]

Not really clear yet. Running Cataphracti Terminators with CBs and a lightning claw makes for a very tough unit that is also lighter on the points than regular termies (downside you cannot take assault cannons ).

 

Drop a large squad in with the Standard of Sacrifice and a Sanguinary Priest and you have a unit with 2 wounds and a 2+/4++/5+++ save and a character who can patch up wounds and resurrect fallen models. The improved invulnerable save as well as FNP equivalent makes a big difference against TEQ-killers like overcharged plasma guns.

 

Regular Termies have come down in price thanks to the drop in cost of power fists but I am not sure if this is enough to make them viable.

[Panzer]

Honestly Terminators should be more expensive than Aggressors. Sv2+/5++ (potentially 3++) and the ability to deep strike are extremely good. Should they be cheaper? Yes. Should Aggressors be as expensive as Terminators? No.

 

That being said, I don't think Terminators are a competetive choice right now. Too expensive and lack the synergy our Deathcompany and Jump Pack units get from our Codex.

[Karhedron]

I agree about Terminators lacking Synergy. They have 1 stratagem which gives them a decent boost but you can only reliably use the shooting half. To use the CC half you need to either make a 9" charge or for your opponent to obligingly charge you. :(

 

I guess you can drop them on an Objective and force your opponent to deal with them but even so, Terminators just aren't that tough.

[tychobi]

Mobility problems plague termies.  Small units die.  Big units can be avoided.  I want them to work but have not had luck yet.   I find them fun in small casual games but serious opponents do not fear my terminators. . . 

[brother_b]

Assault termies need to get up the field, this usually takes a landraider. That's a big point sink. I still love them, and will field them.

 

I like the idea of deep striking shooty termies into an area that I want to deny or hold for an objective. I haven't tried them yet, but will as soon as I get them painted and ready to go.

[Brother Crimson]

Honestly Terminators should be more expensive than Aggressors. Sv2+/5++ (potentially 3++) and the ability to deep strike are extremely good. Should they be cheaper? Yes. Should Aggressors be as expensive as Terminators? No.

 

That being said, I don't think Terminators are a competetive choice right now. Too expensive and lack the synergy our Deathcompany and Jump Pack units get from our Codex.

Agressors are cheaper than terminator. They also get a lot more mobility by negating advanced penalties or can shoot twice by not moving and t5. If you just look at the chassis and not the weapon I find it odd the base cost or terminators is not around 21 too.

 

As comparison

 

Sanguinary guard are also cheaper, loses 5++ for jump packs and the possibility to reroll.

 

Terminators pay a lot for a barely useful 5++

[Panzer]

 

Honestly Terminators should be more expensive than Aggressors. Sv2+/5++ (potentially 3++) and the ability to deep strike are extremely good. Should they be cheaper? Yes. Should Aggressors be as expensive as Terminators? No.

That being said, I don't think Terminators are a competetive choice right now. Too expensive and lack the synergy our Deathcompany and Jump Pack units get from our Codex.

Agressors are cheaper than terminator. They also get a lot more mobility by negating advanced penalties or can shoot twice by not moving and t5. If you just look at the chassis and not the weapon I find it odd the base cost or terminators is not around 21 too.

As comparison

Sanguinary guard are also cheaper, loses 5++ for jump packs and the possibility to reroll.

Terminators pay a lot for a barely useful 5++

Well yeah I said Terminator are too expensive didn't I.

[Arkaniss]

*snip*

I like the idea of deep striking shooty termies into an area that I want to deny or hold for an objective. I haven't tried them yet, but will as soon as I get them painted and ready to go.

I've done this and it works to an extent. Don't plonk them down too far from as support though (or make sure you have reserves to come to their aid if needed), I made that mistake once ;)

 

Sadly much of what's already said is true about Terminators, I hope the new codex makes them better even if it's just the points drop. I do love fielding massed Termies but it's expensive and not particularly effective so far That said we'll never see Terminators as good on the table top as we imagine them in the fluff.

[Orpheus Black Blood]

Ah, that 3+ in 2d6 from 2nd edition...

[Karhedron]

Terminators pay a lot for a barely useful 5++

Agreed. That 5++ only kicks in vs melta and Melta and Hellblasters. Even against lascannons and regular plasma, Termies and SG both save on a 5+.

 

This is why the reduction of Shield of Sanguinius from a 4++ to a 5++ disappointed me. A 5++ just isn't enough of an increase in protection to be worthwhile.

[Are Verlo]

Yea, 4++ on vehicles was nice. My fantasy was getting a Typhoon or a cerberus and shielding it with the shield of sanguninus. Apparently does neither GW nor FW want my money ;-P

Shield got "nerfed" to a 5++ and the cerberus got "elevated" to 680pts??!!

 

Well I can always jump the primaris train and ride it for a while?

[Aothaine]

Well I can always jump the primaris train and ride it for a while?

 

This is actually a good choice imho. Primaris are very good with our rules. As they shore up one of the primaris' weaknesses.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Aothaine

[Brother Crimson]

 

Well yeah I said Terminator are too expensive didn't I.

 

 

Yeah we both agree on that :D

 

But I think terminators shouldnt be more expensive than agressor to be balanced. Agressors have a lot of things to make up for their lower saves. 

[Aothaine]

I dunno. I think Terminators are really good right now. An assault terminator squad can take on almost any target and win at the moment. Especially with our relic banner and a Terminator/Dreadnought Chaplain.

[Panzer]

Well then we disagree there. I do think Terminators should be more expensive than Aggressors. Not by much mind you.

[Withershadow]

Ah, that 3+ in 2d6 from 2nd edition...

It was 2+ on 2D6 for Terminators of Khorne. :D

[Panzer]

Rolling saves with 2d6 is a pain tho. It'd slow the game down a LOT.

[Brother Crimson]

I dunno. I think Terminators are really good right now. An assault terminator squad can take on almost any target and win at the moment. Especially with our relic banner and a Terminator/Dreadnought Chaplain.

 

A captain with thunder hammer, storm shield and jump pack will score on average 3.1 hammer hits for 129 points.

 

On their own, have similar result you need 6.2 hammer attacks from assault terminators. This is a sergeant + 1.6 terminator or 122 points.

 

If you keep a reroll to one as a buff it comes down to 108 points, but they need a captain nearby.

 

So for Just a few more points you gain access to:

Better movement (12” vs 5”)

Jump pack stratagem accessibility (like wings of fire)

Character keyword, to make sure he does not get hit before his charge.

Access to relics and warlord trait.

Filling HQ slots instead of Elite.

A very good aura.

Ability to deep strike in a blind spot (it’s easier to set un 1 model than 5)

 

I love terminator heavy armies, but competitively their point cost is too high for what you get.

[Panzer]

Characters are always more point efficient than almost every unit to be fair. They are supposed to be. GW just needs to figure out how to prevent us from spamming them.

[Brother Crimson]

Characters are always more point efficient than almost every unit to be fair. They are supposed to be. GW just needs to figure out how to prevent us from spamming them.

 

I find they encourage us to have them. You need 2 HQ per batallion  so most people end up using 4.

[Orpheus Black Blood]

Rolling saves with 2d6 is a pain tho. It'd slow the game down a LOT.

That's true, but terminators should be more durable i think.

[brother_b]

Have Terminator armor reduce damage by 1 point, to a minimum of 1 point.

 

That way high powered weapons can still punch through, and plasma won't be so killy.

[Aothaine]

Just got my Archangels Orbital Assault box ordered. Going fill out my Archangel detachment first it seems. Something I was wondering here. Run an entire Terminator force with Blood Angels and use the teleport homers to jump them up into the enemy on first turn and then deep strike in the rest. 

 

All your terminators 9" away from the enemy on the first turn. You'll have to deep strike the characters because they don't have access to homers I don't think. But you can teleport strike them into the fray and put them exactly where they need to be.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Aothaine

[Charlo]

I'm confused what you mean? Homers go in your own deployment zone