All Infantry viable?

[9x19 Parabellum]

With the way Chapter Tactics are working in 8th edition for Space Marine armies (to include Blood Angels*), I increasingly find myself foregoing vehicles in my lists, in favor of model types that benefit from Chapter Tactic.

 

I haven't really been able to find any reason, besides armored transport, why Space Marines don't have the tools, on foot, to deal with whatever threats come their way.  Between infantry and dreadnoughts, it seems like we have everything at our disposable. 

 

Given that, (and also given that it seems like a lot of the previous battle-line vehicles, like Predators or Vindicators or Stormravens) seem overcosted, do you guys think all-infantry (and/or dreadnought) armies are viable? Is there anything I'm failing to take into account in this calculus?

 

(* In fact I should also note I'm asking this question specifically of/for/and about Blood Angels, but answering it with respect to other Space Marine chapters will work too).

[Panzer]

I think transports are vital to protect your infantry from Alpha Strikes unless you can put them in reserves. Of course it depends on the terrain on the board as well. Dense boards with lots of LoS blocking terrain reduces the need of transports.

[Aothaine]

Going all infantry isn't a bad idea. But you need to realize some of the advantages that come from vehicles. Taking three Quad-lascannon predators is incredibly strong. It provides more wounds and higher toughness than three quad devastator squads and benefits from a unique stratagem. So, while Devastators might be able to put more bodies on the field the tanks are, usually, more difficult to wound. Though I think you can make the argument that our new 5+++ banner makes Devastators maybe on par with the predators in terms of survivability. However it does not change the fact that marines can be wiped by small arms fire, I mean a tank can too but it would require significantly more small arms fire to do so. 

 

I would look into your local meta. If everyone is bringing lots of anti-tank, go all infantry and laugh as their las-cannon kills one marine with it's d6 damage. But if the list are more varied and setup for all-comers then going all-infantry isn't going to be your best bet, but deciding on how to build your army is entirely up to you. I wouldn't design it around a more powerful build as the rules may very well change.

 

For instance, I am in the process of building an all flamer army with my Flesh Tearers(Blood Angels). Running four devastator squads with four heavy flamers each in razorbacks with twin-lascannons and three Baal Predators with heavy flamers and inferno cannons. Lots of fire! But with the new codex rules this list is really sub-par. Still... when it does go off it will be glorious!

 

The all infantry list I will be building will most likely be more mid-ranged focused with primaris, the relic banner on SG ancient (I think this is the combo). So then are amazingly resiliant, really shooty and pack a good punch in the fight phase. Toss a priest into that and they wound normal marines on 2+ with their barehands! Blood Angels are awesome!

 

Edit:

sfPanzer has it right with transports and alpha-strikes. They are usually difficult to deal with if you don't have chaff and scouts blocking the landing zones. But intecessors are dirt cheap now and can almost fulfill that role now minus the scout movement which is really really good.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Aothaine

[Karhedron]

We have speed and hitting power but sfPanzer is right about alpha strikes. Sometimes those metal bawkses are good for their points as the enemy has to crack the shells before they can crack the nuts inside.

 

If you are going all-infantry then possibly screening with 2 or 3 units of Scouts would be sufficient. This is not a bad idea in any case since Scouts benefit nicely from Red Thirst and are cheap Troops for ObjSec and CP farming.

[Aothaine]

Alternatively you can look into structures like bunkers to help reduce alpha strike issues. It is something I don't see a lot of people do but the bunkers are quite nice for msu squads.

 

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/Wall-of-Martyrs-Imperial-Bunker

[Karhedron]

I would look into your local meta. If everyone is bringing lots of anti-tank, go all infantry and laugh as their las-cannon kills one marine with it's d6 damage. But if the list are more varied and setup for all-comers then going all-infantry isn't going to be your best bet, but deciding on how to build your army is entirely up to you. I wouldn't design it around a more powerful build as the rules may very well change.

The ability to deny valuable targets to your opponent's anti-tank weapons should not be overlooked. Almost all armies bring a balance of anti-infantry and anti-tank firepower. Now that even lasguns can wound a Land Raider in 8th, the strategy of using mechanised armies to negate small-arms fire no longer works as well as it did but the opposite tactic of going infantry heavy to waste his anti-tank still holds some value.

[9x19 Parabellum]

I absolutely love Rhinos and Razorbacks.

 

But man, every time I see that 72 pt. price for a Rhino, I just have a hard time justifying it, especially given the cost of Rhinos last edition. 

 

I do use Scouts, so buffering against alpha strikes using them is within my tool box.

 

Regarding the 3 predators; man that's a LOT of points (~600).  Then again I suppose 3 full units of Devastators is about the same.  In this respect, i see the Chapter Tactic as wildly different between the 2 factions I play.  For Raven Guard, Devastators are a great place for my lascannons since the -1 to hit them takes affect.  But Red Thirst on Devastators will rarely pay off, so there it might be more prudent to go with Predators to leverage their innate toughness and/or the Killshot Stratagem.

[Panzer]

I'm honestly glad Rhinos cost that much. Rhinos and Drop Pods were WAY too cheap in 7th (tho the Drop Pod could be a little bit cheaper now that you have to stay more than 9" away...).

[Aothaine]

I'm honestly glad Rhinos cost that much. Rhinos and Drop Pods were WAY too cheap in 7th (tho the Drop Pod could be a little bit cheaper now that you have to stay more than 9" away...).

 

Agreed. The rhinos were free.

 

 

I absolutely love Rhinos and Razorbacks.

 

But man, every time I see that 72 pt. price for a Rhino, I just have a hard time justifying it, especially given the cost of Rhinos last edition. 

 

I do use Scouts, so buffering against alpha strikes using them is within my tool box.

 

Regarding the 3 predators; man that's a LOT of points (~600).  Then again I suppose 3 full units of Devastators is about the same.  In this respect, i see the Chapter Tactic as wildly different between the 2 factions I play.  For Raven Guard, Devastators are a great place for my lascannons since the -1 to hit them takes affect.  But Red Thirst on Devastators will rarely pay off, so there it might be more prudent to go with Predators to leverage their innate toughness and/or the Killshot Stratagem.

 

This could open up the option to take a techmarine as well if you're running three preds. Not something that a lot of people do so it could pay off and put those wounded preds back in working condition as well. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

To be fair, Rhinos also popped like balloons in 7th edition. Not so much now :-)

 

I'm strongly rethinking my position on Predators vs. Devs now.

[Panzer]

Exactly. ^^

[Xerxus]

Not sure that it should count but a Shadowsword provides some unique advantages that infantry can't get. It's not a BA unit but as far as vehicles go it's an amazing deal. 404 pts for something that is favored to oneshot a land raider.

[Are Verlo]

Re: quad las predators

 

I see the appeal of 4 lascannons.

But I wonder if the predator cannon is better. The las is better vs T8, but the predator cannon does more damage on aversge vs T7 3+ models and gets a better return from the killshot stratagem.

[The Unseen]

Re: quad las predators

 

I see the appeal of 4 lascannons.

But I wonder if the predator cannon is better. The las is better vs T8, but the predator cannon does more damage on aversge vs T7 3+ models and gets a better return from the killshot stratagem.

That "on average" bit is important.

If you roll those 2d3 and get 2, it's just a worse Twin Las. Some people prefer the consistency and T8 busting ability of the lascannons over the autocannons, but their both good.

 

And if you want to go almost all infantry, Librarian Dreadnoughts and Chaplain Dreadnoughts are both characters, so opponent still couldn't target them with their anti tank firepower, which is cheeky

Edited December 7, 2017 by The Unseen

[Panzer]

 

Re: quad las predators

 

I see the appeal of 4 lascannons.

But I wonder if the predator cannon is better. The las is better vs T8, but the predator cannon does more damage on aversge vs T7 3+ models and gets a better return from the killshot stratagem.

That "on average" bit is important.

If you roll those 2d3 and get 2, it's just a worse Twin Las. Some people prefer the consistency and T8 busting ability of the lascannons over the autocannons, but their both good.

 

And if you want to go almost all infantry, Librarian Dreadnoughts and Chaplain Dreadnoughts are both characters, so opponent still couldn't target them with their anti tank firepower, which is cheeky

 

The consistency of 2d3 is higher than of 1d6 tho...

[Pendent]

It's the lower AP that gets to me. Lascannons are really useful for killing heavy infantry in a pinch, autocannons are still ok but your opponent is still getting a 3+ save.

[Panzer]

Yep that's where I see the Lascannon winning as well. High AP is worth a lot.

[TheHarrower]

I've used both Predators and Devs. They both have their uses, but I think I like Devs better. In cover you get a 2+ save, Signum allows 1 model to hit on a 2+, and an armorium cherub will give you an extra shot. Instead of taking 2 units with 8 models and 4 LC each, break it up into 4 units with 2 LC each. 4 of which always hit on a 2+. Plus, you can field them as a Heavy Detachment for the +1 CP. As an added bonus, spend another 40 points and add a heavy bolter into each squad.

[Are Verlo]

When shooting at light vehicles and artillery pieces the predator cannon really shines. I •hope• when gw gets around to release codex orks we will see much more light vehicles such as buggies and wartracks. Same goes when dark eldar get their book and we see more venoms, raiders and ravagers.

 

Edit :when the lascannon rolls a 1 for damage, it is just a worse predator cannon. ;-p.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Are Verlo

[9x19 Parabellum]

To bring this back around to the original question though "are all infantry armies" viable...I think the answer is still yes.  The Devastator vs. Predator choice notwithstanding (or maybe, even, withstanding), it doesn't seem like there are any wild gaps in an all infantry army.

[Pendent]

My experience has been that infantry in general is a lot less durable in 8th edition with the changes to cover and AP. There are also a bunch of weapons even in our own arsenal that will happily kill MEQ in droves so I really feel like not taking any vehicles can limit our staying power.
 

Lets thing about this from the other perspective- As a Blood Angels player would you rather play against a balanced army that is able to protect key assets using things like Rhinos and have heavy weapons on platforms that will be relatively difficult to kill in assault, or against one where everything juicy already on the table just waiting to get charged. I know what my answer is.

[Panzer]

Heh, I actually think it's the opposite. Imo Infantry became a lot more durable compared to 7th where everybody just took AP2-3 weapons and simply deleted whole Marine squads where now you at least have a small save against those weapons. ^^

[Pendent]

Even if they had ap3 pie plates you would still usually get a cover save and could potentially go to ground, frequently keeping you with a 3+ save even if you don't get to do anything next turn. That's a lot better than now where you only get a 5+ against an ap-3 weapon even with a cover bonus.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Alternatively you can look into structures like bunkers to help reduce alpha strike issues. It is something I don't see a lot of people do but the bunkers are quite nice for msu squads.

 

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/Wall-of-Martyrs-Imperial-Bunker

Can Primaris Marines fit in them? I'm not sure of this is covered or not.

 

I believe primaris infantry is the future. The lists I've been tinkering with give a lot of durability, which is what we seem to be trading off. More defense at the cost of offense.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Crimson Ghost IX]

All Infantry is viable, more so if you play with dense table terrain - yes.

It is perhaps somewhat superior over other all infantry marine armies for an Army like BA because of our new toys.

 

I think infantry mixed with armour to hide in and around is somewhat better overall myself still.

Mobile blocking elements and sally points are nothing to dismiss quickly I feel.

This is due to the way initiative works in 8th in my opinion.  He who charges fights first...

One can attempt to manage that tempo with transports.

 

You can't get away with one transport either in my opinion. You need a bit of mass.

Our army bonuses favor the infantry however...

 

That said...

I am also finding it a bit of a struggle to to get my combined arms to blend properly in the list making stage right now myself.

Perhaps we can get by picking enough charges to win regularly using new toys from the toybox and command points...

Dunno.

 

So the jury is out yet really in my opinion on what is going to be the right way forward.

Need the book and an updated abacus of points =)

Edited December 7, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX