How important are ‘boots on the ground’?

[Blackcadian]

Here’s my problem - I want to pick up CSM, with one of the reasons being we’re spoiled for fantastic ‘big stuff’, right? Forge World, Demon Princes... So can you blame me wanting to bring as many of our cool toys as I can cram into a given list.

 

But that also means I have very few boots on the ground. And I wonder if that won’t seriously hamper my odds of winning.

 

Sure, I’ll bring along my cultist blob like any good warlord, but apart from that? Our basic CSMs are meh at best, and the daemon troops will get shot off the board before they reach combat. It’s not only the troop slot, either. Havocs and Warp Talons don’t appeal to me aesthetics wise, Chosen don’t really either. Berserkers look silly with their poses and bunny ears and Noise Marines look awful.

 

Terminators at least look cool, and the HiTech Obliterators are decent. The new Rubric and Plague Marine Kits are great but without obsec I don’t really see a niche for them right now.

 

So yeah, I love CSM Forgeworld and some other kits, but can I be competitive without a lot of soldiers and lots of big and scary stuff?

 

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

PS: I want a Kytan

[sarabando]

agree 100%

id love some more cultist options, heavy stubber teams, snipers, elite cultists (bloodpack), heavy weapons teams. basically a chaos guard 'dex XD.

 

Better options for Chaos marines, bigger squads more special weapons etc.

[hushrong]

I do believe you need infantry if you want to be competitive. Tanks are big fun but not unstoppable. Especially in an edition where any weapon can hurt anything.

 

In my armies I really do not use cultists, marines, chosen, or daemons much at all. Nothing against what they can or could do. I just usually go for cult troops because I find they bring a more substantial threat to the table. I also wouldn't knock a unit entry because their model sculpt is ugly. This is a hobby where you can make them how you want them. Plus, those cult troops have some awesome rules.

 

I would honestly say you have to settle on what pieces of armor you want and find the best support for them.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Maybe I am an exception; but my Chaos marines tend to put some good legwork in, I play black legion and make liberal use of "Let the galaxy burn" and "Endless Cacophony" + "Vets of the long war" so that probably has an effect, usually stick trip-plasma marines into a rhino and then unload, mathematically its a pretty great shooting phase and my bolters have killed things like Predators and Dreadnoughts before with par rolling. (hitting with almost everything, wounding on +1 and then you do it all over again with the same buffs active) 

 

But again maybe black legions an exception with the "on call" Chapter Master re-roll for basic chaos marines. 

 

1-2 units of that in 2k, with a good 45-60 cultists + as many walkers and daemon engines as I can fit.  Chaos is (next to nids) one of the best "monster mash" lists in the game, we can mix Daemons, Dameon Engines, a plethora of FW and non FW walkers into the mix and really go to town on that.  I always enjoyed that about chaos. 

 

As for plauges and rubrics; they dont really fullfill the same roll. Rubricae are fairly resilient with a great gun, ap-2 bolters and the soul reaper cannon (flamers if you need anti-horde) and a single unit of those wouldnt go amiss as they can obliterate things with armor saves.  Plauges are very resilient with some decent support firepower (plasma and  blight launchers) and are "okay" in melee due to plauge weapons.  

Cultist hordes will always be a good place to start, depending on the legion you play also it will change what way you might wish to build your list. 

 

Addendum regarding daemon troops; they are cheap for what they do, I have seen many daemon screens work wonders keeping tanks or other units safe from the enemy lines, if your shooting cheap daemons off the board due to board presence you aren't shooting other units/tanks.  all 4 daemons work equally well for this given a 5+ invul and T3 (or 4 for nurgle) is all around decent for the 7 points since each of those units is dangerous in their own way. I see them all in fairly equal light, with tzeentch/nurgle having a slight edge in survivability, and Slannesh/Khorne being more "killy" and able to dole out damage. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Sonoftherubric21

[hushrong]

I do plan on using CSM and Cultists soon. For their points and what I can use them for I can get more bodies on the board compared to my usual mix-up of RM,NM,PM, and KB. That's more bodies to bubble wrap stuff like my Scorpius, flank my opponent, or even hold down an objective.

 

Lately I had been running a list with two contemptors armed with kheres assault cannons & havoc launchers, a scorpius with an extra havoc launcher, a jump pack sorcerer with force axe, and two squads of inferno bolter rubricae with rhinos (with additional combi bolter and havoc launchers) at 1250. It's not optimal, it's not competitive, and it was always outnumbered. And if they gunned down one of my hellforged machines it hurt. Almost like dropping the basket you put all your eggs into. But boy oh boy did that combo of GW and FW chaos rack up kills when the dice rolled my way. However, I still had a hard time pushing the enemy and going after objectives so I easily lost due to lack of points. 

 

I've tinkered with that list because I have fun with it and now with Chapter Approved some point costs did go down. 

 

 

[Sonoftherubric21]

Oddly enough one thing I love seeing this edition since the points decreases; Defilers.  If you need volume fire and melee in the same list with some proper support they are a decent walker. And significantly harder to put down then maulers or forges. Oddly a "jack of all trades" walker, that can smash in melee big things, or can actually put out half decent firepower. 

Toss an aura near it and it supports pretty well and also can dissuade terminator or dreadnought assaults let alone tanks getting near our giant-enemy-crab. 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

If you can tailor your list, probably not all that important. For a  take-all-comers list, probably pretty important. 

 

90 Cultists and 9 Flamers cost less than 500pts, so... You'll be fine. Also, your opinion on Daemon troops is incorrect when you apply it to Daemonettes IMO.

[Zuvassin]

If it is an issue about aesthetics, there is the option of using the Space Marine Mk3 or Mk4 plastics, or the resin range that Forgeworld has made for the Horus Heresy.

 

These kits could be used 'as is', or with some conversion or bits from the CSM kits or some of the third-party bits makers.

[hushrong]

Oddly enough one thing I love seeing this edition since the points decreases; Defilers.  If you need volume fire and melee in the same list with some proper support they are a decent walker. And significantly harder to put down then maulers or forges. Oddly a "jack of all trades" walker, that can smash in melee big things, or can actually put out half decent firepower. 

 

Toss an aura near it and it supports pretty well and also can dissuade terminator or dreadnought assaults let alone tanks getting near our giant-enemy-crab. 

In all my long years of Chaos I have never thought to even field one of these things. I sure used them a lot in the DoW games but that was it. Looking over their entry has me interested and even more so after seeing GuitaRsamus' conversion:

 

 

How would you field one? I am liking the look of the reaper autocannon and the flamer. Lots of shots to throw down range and something to burn enemies I'm am going to charge or I am being charged by.

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

Oddly enough one thing I love seeing this edition since the points decreases; Defilers.  If you need volume fire and melee in the same list with some proper support they are a decent walker. And significantly harder to put down then maulers or forges. Oddly a "jack of all trades" walker, that can smash in melee big things, or can actually put out half decent firepower. 

 

Toss an aura near it and it supports pretty well and also can dissuade terminator or dreadnought assaults let alone tanks getting near our giant-enemy-crab. 

In all my long years of Chaos I have never thought to even field one of these things. I sure used them a lot in the DoW games but that was it. Looking over their entry has me interested and even more so after seeing GuitaRsamus' conversion:

 

 

How would you field one? I am liking the look of the reaper autocannon and the flamer. Lots of shots to throw down range and something to burn enemies I'm am going to charge or I am being charged by.

 

 

This is my opinon after theory-hammering a bit; 170 points flat. 

 

Combi-bolter (2-4 shots)

twin heavy bolter (6 shots)

Battle cannons (d6 shots)

and havoc launcher (D6 shots) 

 

combine this with his potential melee, and a nearby lords re-roll aura and youve got a decent walker with high resilience, 3+ base armor, 5++ invul, 14 wounds, regening a wound every turn. and competent Melee, its a suped-up dread fist, D6 wounds per wound being dealt, str 16 (if i recall correctly), 4 attacks base, -3 AP. 

 

Not to shabby, alot of shots going downrange including what is effectively a leman russ battle cannon, only T7 but is acceptable, can easily be buffed by strategems such as blasphemous machine or the daemon engine strategem (YMMV!)  and can toss a mark onto it as well as any applicable daemon buffs for your list, my favorite for my 1k sons is Tzeentch mark + Changeling nearby for -1 to be hit. 

 

But frankly as-is for its 170....not to shabby at all IMO, it can take on alot of stuff in melee and bring down alot of firepower to bare even with hitting on 5's after moving, and thats before prescience or anything else helps it out.

[Mekhitar]

Add me to the list of folks who like defilers. I almost always field 1, and sometimes 2. They have a lot of meat on those crabby bones and are great at mulching tanks and characters in cc. With only 4 attacks hitting on 4s you have to be careful not to get them bogged down in a meaningless combat (the dark apostle works wonders here)... I run them as cheap as they get, which is to say the autocannon, and I drop the flamer for the flail. It really ups their cc punch and cuts a good bit off the cost, too.

[Tamika]

Running three defilers with lascannon and flail now

[hushrong]

I am going to have to proxy one or two the next time I game.

 

I have liked the mobility and the shooting the contemptors provided as 'mobile gun platforms' for my army. As my marines moved up so did they. And if the contemptors got stuck in a fight they could do some damage and even heal up (which is a rule I forget about them often). I do feel that if they get charged they can actually do some damage back in close combat compared to a tank. From my experience tanks obviously suck in melee and backing them out of a fight results in doing nothing for the next turn. I even charge my rhinos at opponents tanks for the sole purpose of locking them in combat and holding them up a turn from doing anything if they back out.

 

The defiler looks like a strong contender for holding its own. And I am sure it will shine with infantry (maybe a warpsmith too) backing it up.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Running three defilers with lascannon and flail now

 

do you find them worth it for that build? I was looking at that as an option but taking the low Ballistic skill into account I figured the "mass firepower" version would be better. Though I could be wrong. 

 

Flails worth it to? 

 

 

I am going to have to proxy one or two the next time I game.

 

I have liked the mobility and the shooting the contemptors provided as 'mobile gun platforms' for my army. As my marines moved up so did they. And if the contemptors got stuck in a fight they could do some damage and even heal up (which is a rule I forget about them often). I do feel that if they get charged they can actually do some damage back in close combat compared to a tank. From my experience tanks obviously suck in melee and backing them out of a fight results in doing nothing for the next turn. I even charge my rhinos at opponents tanks for the sole purpose of locking them in combat and holding them up a turn from doing anything if they back out.

 

The defiler looks like a strong contender for holding its own. And I am sure it will shine with infantry (maybe a warpsmith too) backing it up.

 

Oh definitely; if you give it proper support the things a monster. which if you are a marine / chaos player you have plenty of support options to go around. any re-roll misses, fixing it, or straight buffing it means it can "defiler smash" comes even easier. 

 

Id love to get another at some point, only got the one at the moment in my 1k sons. I think my 1k sons are solid for the "daemon engine legion" and they function pretty well but lacking a codex puts limitations. 

[Karack Blackstone]

Here’s my problem - I want to pick up CSM, with one of the reasons being we’re spoiled for fantastic ‘big stuff’, right? Forge World, Demon Princes... So can you blame me wanting to bring as many of our cool toys as I can cram into a given list.

 

But that also means I have very few boots on the ground. And I wonder if that won’t seriously hamper my odds of winning.

 

Sure, I’ll bring along my cultist blob like any good warlord, but apart from that? Our basic CSMs are meh at best, and the daemon troops will get shot off the board before they reach combat. It’s not only the troop slot, either. Havocs and Warp Talons don’t appeal to me aesthetics wise, Chosen don’t really either. Berserkers look silly with their poses and bunny ears and Noise Marines look awful.

 

Terminators at least look cool, and the HiTech Obliterators are decent. The new Rubric and Plague Marine Kits are great but without obsec I don’t really see a niche for them right now.

 

So yeah, I love CSM Forgeworld and some other kits, but can I be competitive without a lot of soldiers and lots of big and scary stuff?

 

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

PS: I want a Kytan

 

Yes.

 

No, seriously; without Troops and bodies to contest objectives, Infantry to handle the grunt work, sure, C/SM's of all flavors need to have large squads.

 

To put it simply, for any Space Marine or equivalent force to realistically win, Troops squads need to be as close to full as one can get them, and with the kit to either be all-rounders each, or, break each type of Troop choice into cookie cutter builds that have a set mission goal, and try to maximize their positioning and combat potential throughout the course of the game.

 

I don't play Chaos, and plan to never do so; however, from a pure PA model perspective, there is every reason to try and use as many cheap Troop CSM units in your case as possible. If you plan to go to a Brigade level game, I figure if the number you're stuck using to make your units is 6 or higher, that is a must have level, at minimum.

 

I play SW's, and might one day go into Guard. While the benefit of Grey Hunters this edition is pretty solid, there are other roles for each unit. There's always the what to fight the who; what each unit is meant to fight determines the what, and by having the what you can better determine where to try and get that unit to fight each who, and know when to retreat one unit while another tries to maneuver into an intercept position to relieve the retreating one.

 

Anyway, I hope this helps.

[Mekhitar]

The chief trouble with CSM brigades are our fast attack slot.  They seriously... are not good.

On the original topic: yes you want boots, of some kind.  Obsec preferably, especially since a guard player (for example) can deepstrike obsec scions and, even with no gun upgrades, if they make a charge on your objective-holding unit of havocs (for example)... they get that objective.  Since they are troops.  - just an an example!

I play mostly Emperor's Children, so I fill out my desire for power armor and my need for troops with noise marines.  They are shooty and have the range to sit back and fire away while fulfilling troops and having obsec.

When I don't play EC, I field a lot of cultists.  I mean, proxy-kroot-cultists, or my-husband-isn't-using-his-guard infantry cultists.  LOTS of cultists. (If they were more readily available I'd have squads of my own - but I'm not that far along yet and they aren't always easy to get).

That being said, at the latest local tournament (Portal GT) the top-finishing chaos player [2nd overall] fielded large squads of CMS with triple plasma, and marched them across the board on foot, claiming objectives as he went, with some success.

So, there are plenty of flavors as to how to get those boots to where you want them.  But it is worth it to spare a couple hundred points in your lists for those boots.  IMO, many different flavors of them can work in many different ways; pick the one that appeals to you the most and work with it.  CSM give you more staying power; cultists move quick and are cheap / can outflank via tide of traitors; cult troops are generally better than CSM but come with the penalty of their-legion-only.

It's a great time to play chaos, though - you have a lot of options and most of them are good!  (Except the fast attacks...)

[Tamika]

 

Running three defilers with lascannon and flail now

 

 

do you find them worth it for that build? I was looking at that as an option but taking the low Ballistic skill into account I figured the "mass firepower" version would be better. Though I could be wrong. 

 

Flails worth it too?

I think with the reduced cost you might as well put the scariest weapon on it. Threat saturation with my lascannon helbrutes. They can’t be ignored and fill TAC role.

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

 

Running three defilers with lascannon and flail now

 

do you find them worth it for that build? I was looking at that as an option but taking the low Ballistic skill into account I figured the "mass firepower" version would be better. Though I could be wrong. 

 

Flails worth it too?

I think with the reduced cost you might as well put the scariest weapon on it. Threat saturation with my lascannon helbrutes. They can’t be ignored and fill TAC role.

 

 

hmmmm; its a thought. 

 

My thought on the subject was that with my multi-gun spam build its a mixture of "distraction carnifex" and an actually dangerous walker that at 170 is cheap enough where if it dies you don't care "to" much, but the enemy HAS to deal with it.  Although I do lack some las-cannons in my thousand sons so thats an option as well that I may have to look into. 

 

At the price point i have it at its CHEAPER then the forgefiend, and on only slightly more expensive then the maulerfiend (by about 20 points or so)  However the scourge is a great idea.....I can make the argument for the scourge being a better idea then the havoc launcher, helps quite a bit with the mediocre WS as well, and is literally almost the same points cost.

 

Never realized how good the scourge was. I may go with that ;-) 

[GreyCrow]

My 2 cents on the topic.

 

There are two ways.

 

You can have an army that you like, or an army that works.

 

Actually there is a third (more options already than Kairos Fateweaver gives you !).

 

You can have an army that you like and that works, but as all Chaosy things, it comes with a price.

 

The price is being to accept a few things :

- The gameruleset that both constrains you, yet allows you to leverage it in unique ways that are not (necessarily) cheese

- The unit profiles that both give them clear limitations, and hidden capabilities of used right

- That the belief that every unit is created with a purpose is just a belief : you create the purpose of each unit, but you have to be very realistic about what they can achieve

 

---

 

What it means : you can have cool toys, but they won't give you staying power.

If you deploy your cool toys first, the enemy will have opportunities to counter them effectively.

 

The question you have to ask yourself is the following :

- What unit do you want to make a decisive action with, basically, what is/are the MVP you want to have ?

- What decisive capabilities these units have ? (And therefore, what is the corollary ?)

- What is the challenges these units will face for their effectiveness ?

- What are the best complimentary units to support them overcome these challenges ?

 

Let's start with #1, which units do you want to be your MVP ?

[Blackcadian]

Thanks everyone for the many interesting and helpful replies. So ultimately there’s no way around to getting some grunts on the table, but you’ve shown me a few ways that might work for me.

 

My 2 cents on the topic.

There are two ways.

You can have an army that you like, or an army that works.

Actually there is a third (more options already than Kairos Fateweaver gives you !).

You can have an army that you like and that works, but as all Chaosy things, it comes with a price.

The price is being to accept a few things :

- The gameruleset that both constrains you, yet allows you to leverage it in unique ways that are not (necessarily) cheese

- The unit profiles that both give them clear limitations, and hidden capabilities of used right

- That the belief that every unit is created with a purpose is just a belief : you create the purpose of each unit, but you have to be very realistic about what they can achieve

---

What it means : you can have cool toys, but they won't give you staying power.

If you deploy your cool toys first, the enemy will have opportunities to counter them effectively.

The question you have to ask yourself is the following :

- What unit do you want to make a decisive action with, basically, what is/are the MVP you want to have ?

- What decisive capabilities these units have ? (And therefore, what is the corollary ?)

- What is the challenges these units will face for their effectiveness ?

- What are the best complimentary units to support them overcome these challenges ?

Let's start with #1, which units do you want to be your MVP ?

Thank you very much GreyCrow for this comprehensive and well thought through reply, I do like that approach!

 

What I am looking for, and having had fun with in the past, is - I’m thinking there’s got to be various parts of my army that worry my opponent. If he’s not worried about anything then I’m already half way to a defeat. So to answer your question - my MVPs should be big and scary stuff - that what makes us different from the loyalists:

 

I want a powerful melee character and the means to get him there. I want him to tear up things up in assault. So maybe a Juggerlord (I love the model!) or Khârn?

 

And I want something big that draws attention and that can be the visual centerpiece as well as an MVP - like a Knight or a Kytan. Maybe even a Cerastus Lancer or a Cerberus. But the Kytan would probably be the scariest.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Blackcadian

[GreyCrow]

Haha ! I like the approach !

 

So, something big, scary and quick that can punch his weight, we can work around that! :)

 

The decisive capabilities of something big and scary is their ability to totally defocus the enemy's attention.

Here are examples of how to use it :

- Placed first, they are a way to draw their big guns towards them, to force them to counter deploy to it. Usually good when you want to place units, that would require the same weapons to dispatch, where you need them to be.

- Placed later, it will allow you to radically alter the opponents target priority and take advantage of deployment mistakes.

- Placed last, it will change the enemy's battleplan last minute.

 

So, for example, the Kytan. It takes about 21 Lascannon shots to be dealt with (with an average of 3.5 damage a piece), when you factor in invulnerable saves and a Marines' ballistic skill.

If placed first, it will be a Lascannons bait of insane proportions. That is good in a list where you have other armoured forces that you want to sneak in somewhere. Plop it in the middle of the map and watch how people will counter deploy.

 

If placed last, you have a tremendous firepower asset with good speed to get where you want it to!

 

It's actually a pretty good combo with a Land Raider, as you can use the Raider also as a delivery mecanism for a 10 man squad or 5 Terminators. It starts to get pricey but you start to have some quite resilient choices on the board.

 

It's also a pretty good combo with mechanized close range infantry. 2 Squads of Chosen or Berzerkers in Rhinos can go unnoticed under the Kytan.

 

In any case, you will need grunts, if at least to set up the terrain for your bigger heavy hitters. CSM would for the bill here, if you are looking for Rhinos to ferry them. You don't have to put Chosen/Possessed/Zerkers in the Rhinos, if all you need is some capture the objective role, while keeping your heavy hitters on the defensive.

 

Can be a good pairing with Daemon Engine as infantry support vehicules too!