i will call it crusade

[Medjugorje]

https://picload.org/view/dowwarga/bt260618.jpg.html

[Sword Brother Adelard]

In the book it explains that Helbrecht mislead the Imperial Navy and Army about how many brothers he had in his crusade at the outset to set himself up in the position of leading the largest chapter. His reasoning being that no other chapter has the same level of space combat experience and he was the best man to lead the fleet.

I say he only misled the human forces as at a later stage in the campaign he leaves the front to collect the rest of the Crusade's forces from a chapter keep. He then returns, dropping the Eternal Crusader out of the warp smack bang in the middle of a fleet action which cripples several hulks.

[Medjugorje]

I like the way how A-D-B show us the templars in Helsreach and Black Legion.

[Medjugorje]

https://www.change.org/p/games-workshop-games-workshop-to-create-a-unique-codex-for-the-black-templars-space-marine-chapter?recruiter=70742349&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial..

[Medjugorje]

i hope all of you are steady in writing GW !!!!!

[Medjugorje]

https://www.change.org/p/vows-for-black-templars?signed=true

 

its another petitition... but this time not a new codex but VOWS for us Black TEmplars

[Medjugorje]

want to put it into your mind.

 

I wrote GeDub that Vigilus is the right step but nevertheless its far from being perfect.

The FnP Stratagem must be used at the start of the fight phase and sometimes a re-roll is far better then 5++ (because its still just used for characters) and the stratagem for +1 A and rr to wound is far to expensive -  1cp would be okay OR Terminators, Vanguards could use it, then 2CP would be okay.

And as in a general rule the bolter buff was good - we need that for chainswords too...

 

I hope you write it to GeDub as well as I did...

 

What i mean is,, write with

 

ZEAL

[Medjugorje]

want to put it into your mind.

 

I wrote GeDub that Vigilus is the right step but nevertheless its far from being perfect.

The FnP Stratagem must be used at the start of the fight phase and sometimes a re-roll is far better then 5++ (because its still just used for characters) and the stratagem for +1 A and rr to wound is far to expensive -  1cp would be okay OR Terminators, Vanguards could use it, then 2CP would be okay.

And as in a general rule the bolter buff was good - we need that for chainswords too...

 

I hope you write it to GeDub as well as I did...

 

What i mean is,, write with

 

ZEAL

please REMEMBER and do your homework

[Medjugorje]

[Marshal Reinhard]

Not one to comment on youtube videos. Buit if I did I'd make comment about how we at the height of our receiving attention from GW were more divergent than both Dark Angels and Blood Angels. These were originally essentially codex chapters with a one unique unit, or fancy names for some of their companies (not that this stopped them from having their own codex as early as 2nd edition though). But we were radically different, our structure was different, we had more unique units, we were forbidden to take some units other chapters had, we had to take an emperor's champion and he would buff the entire army. It was only later that DA and BA would get more and more unique units, while we instead lingered in limbo until finally we got rolled into the 6th edition codex, having been reduced to a chapter tactic, a unique unit and some special characters.

 

But I'm not one to comment on youtube videos.

[CastellanDeMolay]

We're in a rough spot in terms of rules support, but I'm unsure GW could do much better. Back in 3rd and 4th, the 3rd war for Armageddon was a huge deal, and the BT were a massive part of that story, so naturally there were books to support the new models, plenty of attention in WD, etc. As the narrative and release focus moved to other parts of the range, presumably because they were more popular, and therefore more profitable, I think it made sense to lump us in with someone else. 

 

I think the biggest problem we face is that we play one of the most heavily codex divergent chapters in our preferred interpretation of the chapter, that being, from my understanding of what's posted online, the 4th edition codex; (most people's posts seem to reflect that as the point at which their conception of the BT really crystallised) however they've been rolled into the codex for the most codex-compliant chapters. On some levels I can see the logic in that, at the height of our army's popularity we had one unique unit, 4 special characters, (if you count Castellan Draco) and the LRC as a timed-exclusive, we were prevented from taking Librarians, Devastators and Whirlwinds. The trade off for these limitations was that we had very powerful rules that enabled our battleline units to do most of the heavy lifting. 

 

Nowadays the army design paradigm is very different, everyone has much more points efficient elite units if they need something hard-hitting, and the real shooting power lies with Heavy Support choices, and assault hasn't kept up with shooting in terms of buffs. Battleline units are really only for getting CP and holding objectives it seems. (there's a whole separate discussion to be had about how GW thinks their armies should play versus how they actually do) For an army like the one we remember from 4th edition this is a bad place to be, and as I'm sure you've all heard from other places, you can't play the army the same way that it was. You're probably going to want shooty MSU Crusader Squads for the most part, to grab objectives, or even just use scout squads because they cost less points. The obvious retort is that this turns us into black Ultramarines, which is true, to an extent, we got rolled into Codex Ultramarines, but that way lies no solution to our dilemma. 

 

I'm confident that if the rules writers at GW can fix the whole Instant Death/Eternal Warrior army building trap by changing the way that damage works, which I think has been the biggest problem with the game since 3rd edition, (not to mention even making a lot of the monopose character models viable by changing the relationship between Pistols and assault) then they can potentially untangle the complex of effects that drive players to take as few Battleline units as possible while maximising their CP, and to generally avoid assault-heavy armies, which I think are bigger problems than we currently face and will need to be resolved before army-specific changes become anything more than a band-aid solution that last only until the next iteration of the BRB. As it is we have an army, however badly butchered in the fluff compared to our vision, that is playable, even if it means taking units that we were either previously disallowed, or which don't match the fluff in the good book, and because of that I think we're pretty low down on the hierarchy of things that need fixing in the game. 

 

That said, being in Codex: Ultramarines means we're going to get fairly regular updates, and the Index Astartes article for CF in the recent WD gives me hope for the occasional band-aid fix while we wait on some core rules changes. I've not tried them myself, but the rules from Imperium Nihilus: Vigilus Defiant seem to have been well received by the community here. Realistically the changes we might see will be Detachments/Stratagems, Warlord Traits, and Relics. Given GW's obsession with Primaris Lieutenants I'm thinking perhaps we'll see a plastic Castellan Draco one day, when they've run out of other ideas. 

 

With all that in mind, I think we should be asking for, at least for now, rules to support the main ways that people want to play their BT, which, from what I've seen mostly come down to three styles: 

 

1: Black tide: Ideally we want rules that help us to get large numbers of units across the board quickly and safely. We probably want this to come mostly in the form of Strategems and Relics, because then we can spam Crusader Squads to get lots of CP which we can spend on the aforementioned. 

 

2: Armoured spearhead: Land Raiders (probably Crusaders) supported by Land Speeders and maybe backed up by smaller transports, or possibly even with Stormravens mixed in. (this would represent fairly elite lists, the kind where you'd take the High Marshall, akin to the old Strike Force Ultra) In this case I think you would want to operate as independently of Stratagems as possible, so it should be a special Detachment where you trade your small pool of CP for detachment-wide special rules. 

 

3. Drop Pod Assault: This is fluffy, and I know it was popular at one point. With the points cost of Drop Pods you'll want rules that make your infantry a lot more effective. They won't be all that mobile once on the ground, so you'll be reliant on bubble effects to buff them, (even if you need something like assault squads on the table at the start of the game so you don't auto-lose most of your army will be relatively static) which means you'll want more characters than normal, and ideally a buff to their abilities. Relics like the Crusader's Helm will also help. Given how limited your points for Battleline units would be CP would probably be at a premium, so I'd say the design priority should be a good Warlord Trait and a few powerful relics to shore up those beachheads where you concentrate the force of your attack. 

 

Did I miss any popular builds, or does anyone disagree with my assessment of the top-three? I know the above might be a bit vague, my experience of 8th is very limited and I wouldn't want to just throw ideas out there that would be completely overpowered. On the plus side, the above suggestions could be chapter agnostic, which potentially improves their chance of being implemented in some form, since we'd be sharing them with everyone else in the same book at least, and possibly every chapter in print. 

[Schlitzaf]

Over our history we had 3 and half other unique units

1) Biker Crusaders

2) Neophyte Standsrd Bearer in Helbrecht Command (that no one used)

3) Cenobytes

 

The other half units were

3) Durandal Dreadnought

4) Assault Squads could take power weapons instead of normal armaments (also Storm Shields)

[Medjugorje]

Our main problem is that Space Marines cant melee.

 

- we need a update for that in generell +2 attacks for chainswords and +1 attack for one handed melee wespons

- units that are specialized for melee - need drastic point reductions... Close combat weapon for Dreads shouldnt be higher than 10 points, Assault Squad need more attacks.

- we need a BT  specific buff for melee.

 

 

It would be enough to me if there would be a few minor changes like:

 

secound chapter tactic:

Each Infantry which is able to get a heavy weapon can have a Power maul/Power Sword/Power Axe instead and gain +1 attack.

It would be shown the big fat difference in terms of codex astartes and we could play our guys as melee unit again.

 

In addition all BT chaplains get the special rule from Grimaldus + reroll ANY hits in close combat.

 

A view stratagems (like vigilus did - but a bit more):

A vow as a aura for the Emperors champion - accept any challenge - +1 to hit

...

 

And I would be happy

[Schlitzaf]

Do a unit can take special weapon can take power weapon instead and Medj and think that works

[Marshal Reinhard]

EDIT: Nevermind I'm dumb

[Sword Brother Adelard]

What was a Durandal?

[Kyliadan]

Here you go : http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/246836-durandal-dread-backstory/

[CastellanDeMolay]

Over our history we had 3 and half other unique units

1) Biker Crusaders

2) Neophyte Standsrd Bearer in Helbrecht Command (that no one used)

3) Cenobytes

 

The other half units were

3) Durandal Dreadnought

4) Assault Squads could take power weapons instead of normal armaments (also Storm Shields)

 

Yeah, I counted Cenobytes as part of the same unit as Grimaldus since IIRC they were a package deal. Helbrecht's command squad was a spin on the existing command squad, and Bikers I'll give you, since there were mixed biker squads in Codex: Armageddon, but I don't think those made it into C:BT. 

 

I think we're actually quite well served nowadays for power weapon assault squads, in the form of Vanguard Veterans, and Durandal Dreadnoughts, for which we have Ironclads. 

 

Our main problem is that Space Marines cant melee.

 

- we need a update for that in generell +2 attacks for chainswords and +1 attack for one handed melee wespons

- units that are specialized for melee - need drastic point reductions... Close combat weapon for Dreads shouldnt be higher than 10 points, Assault Squad need more attacks.

- we need a BT  specific buff for melee.

 

 

It would be enough to me if there would be a few minor changes like:

 

secound chapter tactic:

Each Infantry which is able to get a heavy weapon can have a Power maul/Power Sword/Power Axe instead and gain +1 attack.

It would be shown the big fat difference in terms of codex astartes and we could play our guys as melee unit again.

 

In addition all BT chaplains get the special rule from Grimaldus + reroll ANY hits in close combat.

 

A view stratagems (like vigilus did - but a bit more):

A vow as a aura for the Emperors champion - accept any challenge - +1 to hit

...

 

And I would be happy

 

I think some of these suggestions would be rather unbalanced. Take for example the +2A Chainsword suggestion; it seems like a sensible idea on the face of it, but there's a whole ecosystem of assault oriented units out there with which it must interact. What we want is to make assault-geared marines more viable, so we want them to be more like shooty marines in terms of damage output, so I see where you get the idea to give them additional attacks. Consider however that assault works quite differently from shooting, we still get to fire Bolt Pistols in subsequent rounds of combat, we deny the enemy their ability to shoot their main weapons and we can potentially hit first so we can do lots of damage before the opponent can retaliate, blunting their attack.

 

A linear increase in the number of attacks doesn't just make SM stronger, it makes other armies' assault units less viable, because if they assault and damage a SM assault unit then the victim's response won't be blunted to the same extent that it otherwise would. Looking at the new Bolter Discipline rule, there are conditions put on the buff so that it's not just a straight change to a unit's profile [in most cases]. I could see something like bonus attacks for SM units that charged this turn or consolidated into combat last turn working out, because then you're still vying for position, trying to out-manoeuvre your opponent instead of confidently awaiting a charge knowing that even if you go second you're still kicking plenty of ass. 

 

Given how powerful the ability to prevent enemy shooting, and the protection provided by being in assault, are, I think another area we could instead focus on is getting intact marine squads into charge range [more] reliably. Bolters are very consistent, because they're ranged, you can hit opponents from 24 inches away and trade shots all game without needing to break cover. Charging means putting yourself into a much more dangerous position, or spending points on vehicles or other upgrades, like Jump Packs, to mitigate this, so assault units very often become an all-or nothing proposition where you either make it in with enough models that the advantages provide a decisive victory, or you lose your momentum and hit like a wet towel. Buffs that work indirectly (by allowing us to use the already powerful advantages offered by being in assault more often) making our assault units more consistent, like our shooting units, is, I believe, the way to go. (and the way GW seems to be working their tweaks into the game at the moment)

 

In that vein, we do currently have a BT specific buff for melee, it's called Righteous Zeal, and it lets us re-roll charge distances. (I don't mean for this to sound condescending, I just thought it was worth bringing up because it is a powerful buff to melee units when you consider the crowd-control like abilities of assault units and the usefulness if fighting first) You do make a good point about points costs though, if a unit with BP+CCW needs to shell out extra points for Jump Packs in order to be as effective as a unit with Bolters, then is it really worth the points over just taking more SM with Bolters? In theory, yes, because you can shut down enemy shooting and mitigate their ability to retaliate, but that gets us back to assault being an all or nothing proposition instead of part of a tactical toolkit with many worthwhile options, and I think that's a problem with the core rules of the game more than anything; that assault is less of a strategy and more of a gamble. Maybe next edition they'll buff shooting with a partially randomised suppression mechanic and make it proportionally more expensive to bring shooty units to the table, or otherwise start allowing units to fire a wider variety of weapons while in assault, or just buff pistols or something. 

[Schlitzaf]

Any chaplain could take Cenos. And yeah I know but the point remains it’s a little flavor thing (Assault Squads) that would be a small boon for us. And the Biker Crusaders did not exist in Codex: Black Templars. But they are my number 1 unit I want to be returned to us.

 

Durandal being Ironclads and the thing you noted about Assault Marine is why I call those units a half of a unique unit.

[War Eagle]

Why not having simply some sort of stratagem for Crusaders and neophytes in a crusader squad mirroring what Orks got with their Scarboyz (+1S) for a complete unit for the whole game ? S5 CHANGES A LOT... All of that for 1 CP per Squad up to 30 Models.... spend before the battle starts..Or those granting a second round of melee / shooting .

Or rerolling 1s or 6 count as 2 hits.........

[Medjugorje]

 

Our main problem is that Space Marines cant melee.

 

- we need a update for that in generell +2 attacks for chainswords and +1 attack for one handed melee wespons

- units that are specialized for melee - need drastic point reductions... Close combat weapon for Dreads shouldnt be higher than 10 points, Assault Squad need more attacks.

- we need a BT  specific buff for melee.

 

 

It would be enough to me if there would be a few minor changes like:

 

secound chapter tactic:

Each Infantry which is able to get a heavy weapon can have a Power maul/Power Sword/Power Axe instead and gain +1 attack.

It would be shown the big fat difference in terms of codex astartes and we could play our guys as melee unit again.

 

In addition all BT chaplains get the special rule from Grimaldus + reroll ANY hits in close combat.

 

A view stratagems (like vigilus did - but a bit more):

A vow as a aura for the Emperors champion - accept any challenge - +1 to hit

...

 

And I would be happy

. I could see something like bonus attacks for SM units that charged this turn or consolidated into combat last turn working out, because then you're still vying for position, trying to out-manoeuvre your opponent instead of confidently awaiting a charge knowing that even if you go second you're still kicking plenty of ass. 

 

 

Even with 4 attacks... they would never perform that good. They still have 1W and 3+... if they are not charging they are dead... so i understand your opinion but it is far away from any realistic way a battle happens.

[Medjugorje]

it would be nice to have a bonus like orks.... get +1 Attack if the squad size is 10 or more. So the 1 attack powersword guy is worth its points.

[CastellanDeMolay]

it would be nice to have a bonus like orks.... get +1 Attack if the squad size is 10 or more. So the 1 attack powersword guy is worth its points.

+1 to whatever stat for units with 10 or more models seems to be reserved for otherwise weak models that are intended to be taken in large swarms, and seems to be a simulation of their scalability in battle. 1 zombie is trivial, but 20 zombies is a grasping, clawing, biting storm of jagged bone protrusions and diseased maws. In terms of theme and simulation I don't think that's a great fit for Black Templars. What I would suggest is for units being charged by extremely large units (or maybe just units with 5/10/15 models more than their own unit) to be required to take a leadership test the first time it happens each turn, just like in the Morale Phase, to represent the shock of being attacked by such a large group. Make it before Overwatch gets fired and we get a way to potentially remove additional models, and mitigate Overwatch, making our own unit more effective in the Fight Phase. I think this fits with the theme and simulation of Space Marines (concentrated force projection to overcome a part of the enemy army quickly), and some other armies, quite well, without needing to change any Datasheets or re-write existing rules. (plus it should have the knock-on effect of improving the melee game generally and also forcing players to rethink the MSU paradigm)

 

Since the cost of Storm Shields for models with 1 Wound was reduced, perhaps the same should be done for Power Weapons etc for models with a single Attack? It seems like the simplest way to fix the problem of points efficiency on single Attack models, and fits with how GW has handled errata recently. 

[Medjugorje]

we have the oldest codex. But nothing happened so far. I dont think that GW will handle that. They are too busy with even bigger problems like Tau-Drones, Castellan, GSC...

[Medjugorje]

40kfaq@gwplc.com

 

NEXT TRY BRETHREN

 AGAIN - i think we should write GW what we want from them. So that they can see it is profitable to invest in this army models and so on.