All Primaris, a different look at BA in 8th.

[Blindhamster]

I honestly think the best Captain for us is a Gravis Captain. Take the warlord trait for +1 Damage on one of his weapons, would be interested to see how it interacts with the boltstorm gauntlet he has, but id probably take it on the MC power sword anyway, gives him the option to either:

• hit on 2s, wound on 3s (against toughness 4) and do 3 damage per hit.
• hit on 3s, wound on 2s (against almost everything) and do 1d3 damage per hit.

IMO the Gravis captain is the ONLY viable melee primaris character right now.

[Panzer]

I just really don't see the appeal of an Assault2 Bolter on my Primaris when I have cover ignoring Assault3 Bolter on my Noise Marines. :D

A Primaris Captain with Hammer would be awesome. Imo the Primaris line REALLY needs more loadout options on their characters. It's one of the things most people love about warhammer.

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

I like the concept of the Gravis Captain and think it's a cool model (and hopefully we get a unique one for us), but how do we get him into combat without shelling out for a Repulsor?

[Panzer]

I honestly think the best Captain for us is a Gravis Captain. Take the warlord trait for +1 Damage on one of his weapons, would be interested to see how it interacts with the boltstorm gauntlet he has, but id probably take it on the MC power sword anyway, gives him the option to either:

• hit on 2s, wound on 3s (against toughness 4) and do 3 damage per hit.
• hit on 3s, wound on 2s (against almost everything) and do 1d3 damage per hit.

IMO the Gravis captain is the ONLY viable melee primaris character right now.

I agree.

I was originally thinking about taking the +1 damage trait on a mastercrafted Stalker Bolt rifle but the S4 is just too unreliable for what I'd want to use the D3 stat on unfortunately. So yeah, Gravis Captain with Powersword it is. I really hope we get the one on the Codex artwork as model soon!

I like the concept of the Gravis Captain and think it's a cool model (and hopefully we get a unique one for us), but how do we get him into combat without shelling out for a Repulsor?

Repulsor or walking him up the field together with other stuff are our only options currently.

[Pendent]

I've had a lot of luck using my Gravis Captain in the backfield, first for buff my ranged stuff and then for counter charging when stuff inevitably gets in my face.

[Blindhamster]

I like the concept of the Gravis Captain and think it's a cool model (and hopefully we get a unique one for us), but how do we get him into combat without shelling out for a Repulsor?

 

We don't, we accept our lot in life and take a repulsor (or two) :P

 

alternatively, he moves up the field behind intercessors, his gauntlet is short range anyways, so might as well advance him (hey look, a reason for auto bolt rifles!)

 

 

Again, the main time I think auto bolt rifles are best, is if you play a lot of people that ignore -1 AP weapons, as then the bolt rifle is strictly worse than the auto bolt rifle.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I love that list Blindhamster... though I'm having a real tough time visualizing why our 'trait' makes for good Primaris? ...aren't they still WAY better with Codex marine traits?

 

A few units, reivers and inceptors I can see really benefit, but all the rest of the footslogging guys seem like they'd be so much better with other traits. What am I missing gents?

[Blindhamster]

Well, every foot slogger has 2 attacks or more, even shooty primaris do, which means the red thirst has a greater benefit for them.

 

IMO the only codex marine trait that is "better" for primaris is the ravenguard one, but only for their units that want to hang back (the reverse of ours, but unlike ours it becomes totally useless the moment enemies are within 12")

 

 

Edit.

 

Putting it another way:

 

A squad of 5 intercessors has 12 attacks.

They hit on 3s and wound most things on 3s (guard or eldar on 2s, toughness 5 stuff on 4s). Even just 5 intercessors pose a legitimate melee threat to a lot of enemies (Not so much other MEQ, but they are still better than most troop choices at melee).

 

What's crazy, is that hellblasters are just as good at melee.

 

5 reivers have 16 attacks, also hitting and wounding on 3s.

 

If you have a priest (I'm seriously thinking of corbulo seeing as apparently he actively fights alongside primaris to monitor them) they just get better...

 

5 reivers supported by a priest are able to attack a dreadnaught 16 times (11 hits), wounding on 2s (9 or 10 wounds) meaning they can actually threaten a dread in melee, a 10 man reiver squad with priest actually stands a fair chance of killing a dread... WITH KNIVES in melee...

Edited December 8, 2017 by Blindhamster

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

Getting back to the assault bolter vs bolt rifle debate, I did some quick mathhammer and am finding that even if you're looking at the two at maximum engagement range (30" with 5 shots for the bolt rifle vs. 24" with 10 shots for the assault bolter, assuming 5 man squads), they both round to 1 dead model vs. MEQ (.83 unsaved wounds bolt rifle vs. 1.1 unsaved wounds assault bolter). This gets tilted dramatically in favor of the bolt rifle once it closes to rapid fire range, so I'd call it the clear winner vs. MEQ. However, if you're shooting at guardsmen, you're looking at about 2 dead models for the bolt rifle vs. 3 for the assault bolter (again, assuming max range), so it does look like the assault bolter may be the better choice if your meta is more horde-oriented. 

 

But, with that said, if we want to really take advantage of the Red Thirst, our Inceptors should be trying to close with those sorts of targets to get into assault, in which case you're going to be getting into rapid fire range- inside 15", the bolt rifle is the clear winner vs. everything. With that said, I think bolt rifles are the clear winners for Blood Angels Intercessors.

[Panzer]

Primaris won't become Berzerker or Deathcompany with our trait, but they sure as hell will beat every other infantry in melee that's not a dedicated melee one. That's why our trait is good for Primaris. ;)

And yes almost no trait can compete with a -1 to-hit modifier. Good thing that an army consists of more than just the trait. Unit options, Stratagems, Relics and Warlord traits are huge influences of how well an army does as well. ^^

[Aothaine]

I still think it is situational with the auto bolt rifle and feel that it can prove very useful on the field. But testing will need to be done to prove it I suppose. 

 

Ex.

 

HQ Chaplain JP Powerfist Crozius

HQ Sanguinary Priest JP Power Sword Combi-Melta

 

ELITE Death Company (15-man) JP Chainsword & Bolter x12 Powerfist & Bolter x3

ELITE Death Company (15-man) JP Chainsword & Bolter x12 Powerfist & Bolter x3

 

TROOP Intecessor (10-man) Auto Bolt Rifle

TROOP Intecessor (10-man) Auto Bolt Rifle

TROOP Intecessor (10-man) Auto Bolt Rifle

 

HQ - Primaris Captain (Ranged combat variant) 

HQ - Lieutenant (Ranged combat variant) 

 

TROOP Intecessor (5-man) Bolt Rifle

TROOP Intecessor (5-man) Bolt Rifle

TROOP Intecessor (5-man) Bolt Rifle

 

HEAVY SUPPORT Hellblasters (10-man) or 5-man if there are not enough points for 10-man

HEAVY SUPPORT Hellblasters (10-man) or 5-man if there are not enough points for 10-man

HEAVY SUPPORT Hellblasters (10-man) or 5-man if there are not enough points for 10-man

 

Pretty sure this will fit in 2000 points

 

Deploy the Auto Bolt Rifle units up as far as you can. Move -> Advance -> clear chaff with 60 bolter shots

DC units Deep strike in with the Priest and Chaplain

Stratagem one of the DC units into CC

 

 

With this setup you are putting 60 models in your opponents face one your first turn. Second turn you assault with the intecessor squads to assist the remaining DC. You also have a good firebase on the back line objectives. 

 

If your opponent get first turn you will have the three squads with assault bolt rifles spread out a bit during deployment and the extra 15 intecessors on the back line to spread out a bit and prevent alpha strikes that are too dangerous. You will know if you need to deploy like this base on your opponent's list when you are allowed to ask for.

[Panzer]

I still think it is situational with the auto bolt rifle and feel that it can prove very useful on the field. But testing will need to be done to prove it I suppose. 

 

Ex.

 

HQ Chaplain JP Powerfist Crozius

HQ Sanguinary Priest JP Power Sword Combi-Melta

 

ELITE Death Company (15-man) JP Chainsword & Bolter x12 Powerfist & Bolter x3

ELITE Death Company (15-man) JP Chainsword & Bolter x12 Powerfist & Bolter x3

 

TROOP Intecessor (10-man) Auto Bolt Rifle

TROOP Intecessor (10-man) Auto Bolt Rifle

TROOP Intecessor (10-man) Auto Bolt Rifle

 

HQ - Primaris Captain (Ranged combat variant) 

HQ - Lieutenant (Ranged combat variant) 

 

TROOP Intecessor (5-man) Bolt Rifle

TROOP Intecessor (5-man) Bolt Rifle

TROOP Intecessor (5-man) Bolt Rifle

 

HEAVY SUPPORT Hellblasters (10-man) or 5-man if there are not enough points for 10-man

HEAVY SUPPORT Hellblasters (10-man) or 5-man if there are not enough points for 10-man

HEAVY SUPPORT Hellblasters (10-man) or 5-man if there are not enough points for 10-man

 

Pretty sure this will fit in 2000 points

 

Deploy the Auto Bolt Rifle units up as far as you can. Move -> Advance -> clear chaff with 60 bolter shots

DC units Deep strike in with the Priest and Chaplain

Stratagem one of the DC units into CC

 

 

With this setup you are putting 60 models in your opponents face one your first turn. Second turn you assault with the intecessor squads to assist the remaining DC. You also have a good firebase on the back line objectives. 

 

If your opponent get first turn you will have the three squads with assault bolt rifles spread out a bit during deployment and the extra 15 intecessors on the back line to spread out a bit and prevent alpha strikes that are too dangerous. You will know if you need to deploy like this base on your opponent's list when you are allowed to ask for.

That's actually 2383p even with just 5 per Hellblaster squad. Yes I was curious and clicked it together right now.

Edited December 8, 2017 by sfPanzer

[Blindhamster]

Lol I was working out the same haha.

 

Yeah it's a lot over the limit sadly - it does look like a fun list though

[Aothaine]

Ahhh still getting used to the Primaris point values. What if you dropped one of the DC units? I'd really dislike dropping the 10-man intecessor squads. But you could drop out the 5-man intecessor squads and just keep the Hellblasters in the back line. They are pretty scary in their own right.

 

Edit: I think the auto bolt rifles, while a little less efffective, are the better option for us specifically because we can advance and fire them. That puts us closer to the enemy where we want to be anyway. As Blindhamster detailed above, our primaris are pretty scary in melee.

 

 

Lol I was working out the same haha.

Yeah it's a lot over the limit sadly - it does look like a fun list though

 

 

 

 

For sure.. I really hope we get some primaris HQ options with jump packs in the future though. I wouldn't even mind if the rules were not in the codex for now. Maybe allow us to pay like a $5.00 charge to update our codex and add in all the rules updates and new entries. Would be really cool of GW. I'm the kind of person that would just re-buy the codex if it had the updated rules and additional units in it

Edited December 8, 2017 by Aothaine

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Is the Burning Blade really considered to be strong? I saw it only had one damage and immediately moved on.

 

It is much better than the standard power sword .

[Panzer]

Dropping one of the DC units should be almost enough. They were about 300p I think. You probably would have to drop one of the Intercessor units as well.

[Panzer]

 

Edit: I think the auto bolt rifles, while a little less efffective, are the better option for us specifically because we can advance and fire them. That puts us closer to the enemy where we want to be anyway. As Blindhamster detailed above, our primaris are pretty scary in melee.

 

Yeah but that's the thing. The Auto Bolt rifles don't seem to want to be close to the enemy since they have literally zero advantage there. They are good at staying at range without losing shots but it's the regular Bolt rifle that wants to be close.

It would look differently if we could advance&charge since then the Auto Bolt rifle would be just the cherry on the top on your way into melee but unfortunately we can't.

[Pendent]

 

 

Edit: I think the auto bolt rifles, while a little less efffective, are the better option for us specifically because we can advance and fire them. That puts us closer to the enemy where we want to be anyway. As Blindhamster detailed above, our primaris are pretty scary in melee.

 

Yeah but that's the thing. The Auto Bolt rifles don't seem to want to be close to the enemy since they have literally zero advantage there. They are good at staying at range without losing shots but it's the regular Bolt rifle that wants to be close.

It would look differently if we could advance&charge since then the Auto Bolt rifle would be just the cherry on the top on your way into melee but unfortunately we can't.

 

I still like Reivers so much better than Incercessors for that skirmishing role that the assault bolters lend themselves to. Depending on wargear loadout you can abuse ruins pretty heavily with the grapnel launchers and/or can be deploying anywhere you want on the table, compared to those poor Intercessors that just have to footslog.

 

 

 

Is the Burning Blade really considered to be strong? I saw it only had one damage and immediately moved on.

 

It is much better than the standard power sword .

 

I mean, sure, it is better than a power sword but is it really worth it to take a relic slot on a weapon that only deals 1 wound? I literally never take single damage weapons on my characters unless I'm deliberately skimping on something that I don't expect to see much combat. The Teeth of Terra looks to me to be a lot stronger than the Burning Blade. I know I'd just about kill to have it available for us. It would be beautiful on a captain- an extra attack hitting on 2's, rerolling 1's, wounding on 2's at ap-2 and dealiing two damage. You can deal with basically any infantry with a loadout like that.Even without our buffs I'd still say it's by far the better weapon for vanilla marines. Getting a little off topic though, aside from saying that 1 damage weapons just do not cut it these days.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Pendent

[Panzer]

 

 

 

Edit: I think the auto bolt rifles, while a little less efffective, are the better option for us specifically because we can advance and fire them. That puts us closer to the enemy where we want to be anyway. As Blindhamster detailed above, our primaris are pretty scary in melee.

 

Yeah but that's the thing. The Auto Bolt rifles don't seem to want to be close to the enemy since they have literally zero advantage there. They are good at staying at range without losing shots but it's the regular Bolt rifle that wants to be close.

It would look differently if we could advance&charge since then the Auto Bolt rifle would be just the cherry on the top on your way into melee but unfortunately we can't.

 

I still like Reivers so much better than Incercessors for that skirmishing role that the assault bolters lend themselves to. Depending on wargear loadout you can abuse ruins pretty heavily with the grapnel launchers and/or can be deploying anywhere you want on the table, compared to those poor Intercessors that just have to footslog.

Agreed. I'd take Reivers over Auto Bolt rifle Intercessors any day.

[Kickrock]

Regarding Auto versus Rapid Fire Bolt Rifles; Are you planning on advancing the unit? Take the Auto Bolt Rifles, you can still move and fire while only suffering the -1. Otherwise, I feel the Rapid Fire is more "reliable." This is why I feel the Auto Bolt Rifle fits on the Reivers so well. It is unfortunate that we have the Stalker Bolt Rifle option, but it will never see use. It'll totally be modeled but never put into play. Maybe one day it'll get the Sniper Rifles ability to target Characters, it doesn't even need Rending to be good (but that'd be nice too).

--- 

Regarding Gravis Captain and how to move him; you dont. Well, in my opinion at least. I feel due to his lack of mobility, 2 slots in a Repulsor, and aura he should be babysitting Hellblasters. Repulsors are an option but its so damn expensive! Besides, Hellblasters can use the rerolls to prevent from murdering themselves more than the Aggressors will. 

---

Regarding Primaris in general; I feel as individual units they fill amazing rolls within Blood Angel lists (excluding Intercessors). I feel as an army, however, they are just lacking for Blood Angels. Great for Vanilla, but not for us. We lack delivery for a lot of the units that is reliable. Turn 1 charges are out of the question without great risk. Our most mobile unit is geared around shooting (albeit amazing for what it can pull of). BUT in support of other BA units they look like they may be devastating. Except Intercessors. 

Just my opinion. You continue to do you! I ran all DC in 5th and would get kited around the board because it was what I wanted to play. Unless its on the topic of Intercessors. I don't like them. They do nothing but fill up troop slots. 

[Blindhamster]

IMO intercessors with their multiple attacks compliment the BA rules very well.

 

 

But that is of course, also just opinion

Edited December 9, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Aothaine]

IMO intercessors with their multiple attacks compliment the BA rules very well.

 

 

But that is of course, also just opinion

 

I completely agree here. They have built in chainswords. A unit of 10 rocks out at least 20 attacks hitting on 3s and wounding most targets they would be facing on 2s. Then you have your bolt rifle which is also pretty damned amazing. 

 

I honestly feel that Primaris are coming into their own and their lack of options seem to be made up by their resiliency and the pressure they create. I was thinking about another list that uses only Intecessors. With their new points value you can knock out almost 70 of these guys on the board and still have around 600 points for characters to spread auras around. 

 

Give them the standard Bolt Rifle and you are going to be able to handle pretty much any army that comes your way. I'm not to sure what army would be able to stand up to a force like this. 

 

Captain in Gravis (Shard relic & auto pass morale or +1 dmg warlord trait)

Sanguinary Priest (Standard kit to keep points low) x2 (Technically these should be primaris apothecaries... but passing up the +1str is silly right?)

Primaris Librarian (Standard kit to keep points low) x2

Primaris Lieutenant x2 (Melee Setup) 

Primaris Ancient with banner & relic banner

Intecessor Squad - Bolt Rifle (10-man) x7

 

Points might be a little over here. But I think the only armies this list would have any troubles with is flyers maybe? What do you guys think? 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Aothaine

[Panzer]

Meh that's still only 70-140 Bolter shots with AP-1 plus characters. Not overly impressive compared to Noise Marines. A Noise Marine costs 1p more and has 3 cover ignoring Bolter shots instead. So in cover or above half range they are clearly superior, can shoot again when they die, can shoot twice with the Slaanesh Stratagem (quite mean with a unit size of up to 20...that's 120 shots from that unit alone) and +1 to-wound from the Veteran of the Long War stratagem.

 

Intercessors are good but you really need something else in your army as well.

[Aothaine]

Meh that's still only 70-140 Bolter shots with AP-1 plus characters. Not overly impressive compared to Noise Marines. A Noise Marine costs 1p more and has 3 cover ignoring Bolter shots instead. So in cover or above half range they are clearly superior, can shoot again when they die, can shoot twice with the Slaanesh Stratagem (quite mean with a unit size of up to 20...that's 120 shots from that unit alone) and +1 to-wound from the Veteran of the Long War stratagem.

 

Intercessors are good but you really need something else in your army as well.

 

I see where you're coming from here but keep in mind that the Blood Angel intecessors also have the 5++ from the banner and get to fire again if they die, then come back with apothecaries. The Intecessors also have two wounds each. It would in interesting to see though.

[Panzer]

 

Meh that's still only 70-140 Bolter shots with AP-1 plus characters. Not overly impressive compared to Noise Marines. A Noise Marine costs 1p more and has 3 cover ignoring Bolter shots instead. So in cover or above half range they are clearly superior, can shoot again when they die, can shoot twice with the Slaanesh Stratagem (quite mean with a unit size of up to 20...that's 120 shots from that unit alone) and +1 to-wound from the Veteran of the Long War stratagem.

 

Intercessors are good but you really need something else in your army as well.

 

I see where you're coming from here but keep in mind that the Blood Angel intecessors also have the 5++ from the banner and get to fire again if they die, then come back with apothecaries. The Intecessors also have two wounds each. It would in interesting to see though.

 

Noise Marines can easily get the 5+++ as well with the Slaanesh psychic power. And the banner is only for models in range not for the whole unit so there will be a lot Intercessors out of its range. ^^

Apothecaries is a valid point but doesn't help much if the unit is simply dead. Two wounds is good but there are also a bunch of multi-damage weapons that just wait for a Primaris army so while it's a bonus I wouldn't rely on it too much. Also with the Banner they can only shoot again on a 4+, Noise Marines do it automatically.

 

Anyway that wasn't supposed to be a vs scenario. I just tried to point out that 70-140 Bolter shots really isn't THAT amazing. Other armies can do it better.