Guard in the evolving meta

[bigmic66]

Hi all,

 

Been playing guard since index and the codex made us even stronger. I've never run conscripts etc because I felt players lists were tailored to be able to deal with screening units.

 

I usually run Russ heavy with a shadowsword, wyverns and then sentinels, Ratlings etc as a screening unit. Has been really strong against all the top lists I've played but has had trouble against super fast armies that can bounce through combats.

 

Previously this has only really been harlequins but now nids and blood angels are crazy fast and able to fly over/through screens.

 

How are they changing your lists?

 

To me it makes bullgryns/cyclops almost mandatory and superheavies are a lot more valuable being able to shoot despite being tied up. I can't make a list without my shadowsword these days.

 

I've also considered running my guard tanks and super heavy alongside a small gsc patrol and then tyranid to give me access to rippers, spore mines for board control + all the other tricks tyranid have to keep my guns shooting longer.

[lash144]

I'm also running a mechanised / armoured list so I'm pleased with the codex :)

 

Atm I'm struggling with finding the right screening unit which is fitting also in my list.

I got three scout sentinels for their anti deepstrike move, but I feel I a second line of defense against cqc armies, so things I was thinking off:

- Infantry Squads in chimeras (kind of expensive for a screen)

- AdMech Dragoons. Their big bases make them good for screening but they can be quite durable (-2 to hit) and they maintain the theme of an mechanised force

 

Have you used Bullgryns for screening? How did they perform? Did you footsloog them or did they get e.g. a chimera?

 

I am also open to other ideas for screening in an armoured list.

[OnboardG1]

I'm inclined to add a Hydra to my list for the first time. Lots of the fast armies have the fly keyword, meaning the Hydra is actually going to have targets. Plus more infantry squads to deepen the screen.

[Feral_80]

I think the Hydra really sucks, its damage output is meagre. Even hitting at +1, it won't pose a real threat to any serious Flyer - at best, some Eldar bikes.

 

My impression is that the current state of the game will penalize traditional AM armies more and more. The stupid -1 hit thing is multiplying everywhere around, and that's a brick against AM, as well as Tau and any BS 4+ shooty army in general. Now some eggheads around (e.g. on the Eldar forum and Dakkadakka) try to argue that this is beneficial to the game because it creates a sort of rock-paper-scissors scenario in which -1 hit armies beat shooty armies, which beat close-combat armies, which in turn beat -1 hit armies. But the comparison hardly stands, and rather creates a very rigid game environment which hampers creativity and limits tactical options. 

 

If you don't know what you are going to face (tournaments), you'll likely want to drop long-range fire because the risk of hitting on 5+ (*at best*) is too high and makes these units pretty much useless.

If you know what you are facing (friendly game), you obviously tend to list-tailor and know what and what not to take. This is even worse because every time I face my Eldar mate I know (and he knows) he's going Alaitoc, and every time I face my AdMech mate he's picking Stygies, and so on. And why blame them? It's the codex that has given them a no-brainer choice. It's a paradox, but this thing is probably going to impact friendly games harder than anything else.

 

In all cases, whether due to the -1 hit army-wide shenanigans or to the proliferation of ways to deepstrike units at 9", the game is very clearly and heavily focusing on close firefights, and we are more and more pressed to take short-range units able to reach the enemy at the now magical <12" range and to stand charges from 9" away. If you want to stay competitive at the current meta, drop your Basilisks and invest in Catachans, Tallarn, Hellhounds, Bullgryns, and the like. That seems to be the trend at the moment. I really hope it will change, but I doubt it: GW already did a mess with the recent codexes bringing a plethora of sub-faction traits that are vastly superior to any others, and it's too late to adjust that already.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Feral_80

[Withershadow]

Now some eggheads around (e.g. on the Eldar forum and Dakkadakka) try to argue that this is beneficial to the game because it creates a sort of rock-paper-scissors scenario in which -1 hit armies beat shooty armies, which beat close-combat armies, which in turn beat -1 hit armies. But the comparison hardly stands, and rather creates a very rigid game environment which hampers creativity and limits tactical options. 

 

Eggheads implies a level of intelligence, if perhaps lacking common sense, but that argument is full on retarded.  In this case the -1 hit army is ALSO a shooty army.  It's not rock - scissors - paper...  it's rock - scissors - razor sharp paper wrapped around a brick

[Feral_80]

That is exactly what I replied, but I only got more bull:cuss on how the meta is so complex that I cannot possibly grasp its fine ultimate balance.

 

Translation: 90% of those who can will just play -1 hit subfactions because they are just so vastly superior to their alternatives in the codex. If your codex does not have one such subfaction, that's your problem.

[librisrouge]

I was kinda hoping one of our more light infantry regiments (Catachan or Tallarn, still hope for Tanith someday) were going to get that trait because I would have taken it and ran like a thief in the night. It's that good.

 

As far as being more on topic, I think the meta is going to force IG to engage in melee, or at least plan for it more and more, since melee armies are getting faster and elite shooting armies are getting harder to hit from farther away. This means thing like ogryn and rough riders (i.e. death riders) are going to have to step up. Infantry units are going to have to consider how to make melee more viable, such as being catachan or taking power weapons (though those are contentious compared to the simple chainsword.) Armor is going to increasingly favor shorter ranged weapons, such as the already awesome hellhound and the, imo, underappreciated demolisher. Things that want to just sit back and shoot will suffer unless you're packed to the gills with modifiers in your favor (*cough* cadian *cough*).

 

As always, redundancy will be the guard's strength. Taking out a single russ won't matter as much if you've got two more next to it. A dead infantry squads means little with ten more on the table. Let them accumulate kills while you whittle away, its probably our best hope.

[Withershadow]

Well, I mean these are Eldar players and DakkaDakka forumites.  The former have been entitled brats for so long, they make Space Wolves fans seem reasonable,  whereas the latter is composed of lobotomized left-overs from Warseer.  :D

 

Anyway, pure Guard still has decent options. Death Riders, Bullgryns, superheavies can all kick serious ass in melee.  Hellhounds and Punishers can act as great speedbumps with good overwatch (takes stratagem for Russ)

[Feral_80]

Yes, I think Guard still has very good choices to remain competitive. Although honestly I am really scared that next round GW will nerf Bullgryns, Hellhounds, and/or DKK riders, and then we'll be pretty much screwed.

 

Besides that, fortunately I like dynamic games, I have quite some Catachan and short-range units, and not too much long-range stuff. Can't say I'm happy for my two just converted Earthshaker platform, made doubly useless by the combination of CA and of -1 hit everywhere, but anyway. It just sucks that suddenly some people with a more traditional AM army will find half of their collection nearly unplayable.

[lash144]

Yes, I think Guard still has very good choices to remain competitive. Although honestly I am really scared that next round GW will nerf Bullgryns, Hellhounds, and/or DKK riders, and then we'll be pretty much screwed.

 

Besides that, fortunately I like dynamic games, I have quite some Catachan and short-range units, and not too much long-range stuff. Can't say I'm happy for my two just converted Earthshaker platform, made doubly useless by the combination of CA and of -1 hit everywhere, but anyway. It just sucks that suddenly some people with a more traditional AM army will find half of their collection nearly unplayable.

 

So how is your typical 2k TAC list looking like, if I might ask?

[Feral_80]

At the moment I am trying something like this:

 

Cadian battalion:

2x company commanders

3x infantry squads: lascannon+plasma

heavy weapon team: mortars

 

Catachan battalion:

2x company commanders

3x or 4x infantry squads: mix of plasma/flamer

2x special weapons squad: 3x plasma

Harker

2x Hellhounds

2x LR Conquerors

4x Bullgryns

Priest

 

Tallarn outrider:

Primaris psyker

2x Artemia Hellhound

2x Scout sentinels

 

This is about 1600-1700 pts. The idea is that the Cadians stay behind, hold and shoot, the Tallarn scout and outflank, and the Catachans contest the centre of the field.

I fill the remaining 3-400 pts with a variety of stuff. Usually I include another Psyker of some sort, with more Tallarn stuff to outflank, or bring the Catachans to a Brigade (but rarely), or take a Valkyrie and/or a Vulture.

 

If my opponent is fine with that, sometimes I add a 4th detachment which is made of an Inquisitor with 3 DKK squads and an officer - a great meatshield for the Catachans.

 

The best thing would probably be to just add 2x/3x plasma Scions with a Prime, but I am experimenting some alternative just for fun. 

[bigmic66]

I'm currently assembling bullgryns and 6 cyclops demo vehicles at the moment. Due to my armour skew enemy anti inf have nothing to shoot at so I'm hesitant to drop bullgryns out front t1 to eat all the heavy bolter shots floating around.

 

I'd be considering four bullgryns in chimera, 6 cyclops demo vehicles, or another super heavy for melee

[lash144]

I'm currently assembling bullgryns and 6 cyclops demo vehicles at the moment. Due to my armour skew enemy anti inf have nothing to shoot at so I'm hesitant to drop bullgryns out front t1 to eat all the heavy bolter shots floating around.

 

I'd be considering four bullgryns in chimera, 6 cyclops demo vehicles, or another super heavy for melee

 

Tell me how it went :)

So 2 super heavyies in a 2k point game? :D

[bigmic66]

Yeah leaning towards the first two options. I think chimera bullgryns will be great.

 

People will be reluctant to shoot chimera when there's pask 3 russes and a shadowsword to shoot at

[lash144]

I´m sure they will, but they are also not what I would call cheap :P

 

Yeah I´ve observed this as well :D But it actually can work both ways, if you throw the Chimeras pretty aggressive at them. (bonus points if they have a special payload like your bullgryns)

[bigmic66]

Yeah its not cheap but get what you pay for. Inf squads just get breezed through. Bullgryns can go toe to toe with decent opposition plus with barrier/take cover strategum they are pretty resilient. The cyclops will be great to at 60pts each.

Hell I use my shadowsword to screen against certain armies. 4d6 heavy flamers towel up hordes and overwatch strategum with volcano cannon has seen me wreck all kinds of monsters.

[lash144]

How many squads are you planing to run?

 

I'm not really sold on the Cyclops after the price increase...

[bigmic66]

My list is basically

 

Pask in BC,lc,PC Russ

Tank commander in BC,lc,PC Russ

 

Punisher Russ with hbs

Punishers Russ with hbs

2 wyverns

 

Plus 400is pts for either of the above mentioned options. 6 cyclops demo is 360 or 4 bullgryns in chimera

[Galron]

I havent played my close range firefight Elysians since the IG codex came out. Too many people were complaining that it was stupid I had 16+ units dropping all over the place and they couldnt play their army the way they wanted. Waaaah! I know right?

 

My standard dex list hasnt changed since the dex came out. It seems to hold out all right and Magnus and Morty aint got crap on me. 4 chimeras with twin heavy flamers filled with 3 infantry squads, 2 plasma command squads and an officer. Then I have 3 mortar squads and an officer, 3 Leman russes of varying types, a tank commander, 2 Collossi and 2 Medusas. The Medusa are borderline getting removed, they just lack the damage to go with their high strength shots.

 

My primary opponents have been chaos and daemons for the most part, and aside from the two primarchs over and over, nothing too cheeseballish.

[bigmic66]

I never had problems against resilient slow lists, its the t1 assault with jump packs/gargoyles that can tie up shooting units behind screens that are changing NY gameplay/lists

[Malakithe]

Good thing ive only been making Catachan lists from the start lol lots of bodies, lots of vehicles 

[lash144]

@bigmic66

 

Did you already use those Cyclops in 8th?

And sure you haven't had problems against those slows lists, their are our favorite opponents ;-)

 

 

@Galron

 

Isn't that precisely the points of Elysians? :D

 

Looks like a fun list you are running. Few questions:

1) Which doctrine are you running? Catachan?

2) How are those HF Chimeras performing? Haven't tried them yet....

3) Have you played against fast CC armies yet? Were those 3 Infantry Squads enough for protecting your armour?

[mertbl]

I think the Hydra is viable. It's a threat to anything with "Fly" 8 AC shots will tear up some marine fly boys.

[bigmic66]

No use of cyclops yet mate. Fast armies were available but nowhere near as viable with the strategums and points drop new codex's are bringing. So a bad matchup olis now far more common.

[NatBrannigan]

The -1 to hit is a bit of an arse for sure.... I haven't played Eldar yet but I played a mission where everyone was at - to hit (and charge and advance) and due to bad luck it lasted the whole game. Crippled my shooting and special Mordian overwatch and the Tyranids were all over me... Only a suicidal brave and lucky Yarrick held up the big beasts for long enough

 

It's certainly getting more widespread and I added a comment when I filled in the community questionnaire about it. Basically said it's not fun for me or the opponent if I can't actually hit anything... Takes any need for terrain or tactics away.

 

I'll have to look at lots of searchlights from Forgeworld I guess, and I've been avoiding taking them so far. Get enough of those and it will almost negate the -1 to hit.