Guard in the evolving meta

[Withershadow]

While acid bombs are not amazing, it's worth remembering that all of the Krieg infantry carry krak grenades, so that grenadier stratagem sees a lot of use for me.

[depthcharge12]

So I’m trying to look at creating a 2000 point force with the ability to get the full brigade CPs. The only issue is I play Krieg and there exists no good solution for taking 3 fast attacks. The options are limited to:

 

1.) Death Riders

I’ve already got s squad and the models are $$$. Honestly I would take more, but 3 squads of them would cost both of my kidneys.

 

2.) Salamanders

Could do these but I would need to babysit them so they don’t get assaulted, and they are more expensive than just getting a bunch of Autocannons squads - they don’t benefit from tank or Infantry orders.

 

3.) Hellhounds

Probably the best and most money effective option of the three. Nothing says WWI like a bunch of chem tanks and setting dudes on fire. Good suicide units.

 

4.) Centaur carriers

Unfortunately these don’t have the same rules as the grenadier ones, so they can’t fly up the board to unleash a heavy flamer and 2 melta guns T1. Also expensive money wise, but are good for getting farther objectives and remaining mobile - something Guard armies have issues with.

 

Thoughts?

[Halfpint100]

BURN THE HERETICS! BURN THEM ALL!! 

 

My vote is for hellhounds 

[Tirak]

Death Riders are very flexible and powerful, there is a reason they keep showing up in Tourney lists, but I feel you on the cost. Next choice is the Hellhound. They're solid, reliable and incredibly flexible. And if you mag them up you get 2.5 useful vehicles in 1 for future list building.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Tirak

[Schlitzaf]

I run both, in the same list, they are similar but different units. Deathriders are basically faster Orgryns or a ‘push’ unit. They can clear off Objectives and take appreciable levels of firepower to clear out. Regular Ponies, are Bully Units. They cannot kill backfield, but they can tie it up and are not ignorable.

 

Regular Ponies are good with two cheap non-flamer specials (Flamers are okay if starting on board). Either Plasma or Grenade Launchers. They can then charge to clear out chaff. Each model puts out 3 attacks each round. For a tidy sum of 10 Points.

 

Different units for Different roles. They complement each other very nicely as an aside.

[Tallarn Commander]

Hmm, I'd say try options 1 through 3 (Centaurs seem a little too slow and fragile).

 

Death Riders

Schitzaf explained this unit's strengths

 

Scout Salamanders

I ran Salamanders a lot in 7th. They seemed to do fine unsupported. They zoomed around grabbing objectives and taking potshots.

 

I haven't used them in 8th but they can get a scout move like our sentinels and they got even cheaper. It seems to me that they would do fine* in an unsupported advance role.

 

* By fine I mean they get assaulted on Turn 1, jump out of combat Turn 2, and spend the rest of the game in the opponent's backfield for the rest of the game. This is what my sentinel squadrons have been doing and salamanders have even more wounds than them.

 

Hellhound

I won't say much because we all know how solid our Hellhounds are this edition. It seems to me that a Hellhound/ Salamander combo would work well. The Hellhound deals the damage while the Salamander scouts up and denies Turn 1 deepstrikes.

[NatBrannigan]

I think Rough Riders are great (from the index only now alas...). 3 Units of 5 are dirt cheap and can pop up in very awkward places for your opponent. They won't last long if targeted and won't kill too much but I've had them nick a backfield objective to help me win a game, get into combat with devastator squads to tie them up and kill a Chaos Sorcerer lurking behind the enemies lines before. Cheap and useful, like a tin opener.

 

Hellhounds I haven't used but my new all Heavy Flamer Chimera has been so useful (same with the Redeemer Land Raider but that's a slightly different kettle of Tau) that the Hellhounds MUST be good! Slightly more pricy of course.

 

The last option no one has mentioned is Sentinels, specifically Scout Sentinels. Also cheap, also useful and the bubble of deep strike denial is excellent. The kind of unit that's already done it's job just by being deployed, with any damage done after that just gravy. I mainly now go for two of them with one unit of Rough Riders to fill out my fast attack as cheaply as possible, but with units that have a definite use.

[lash144]

No one mentioned them because he plays Krieg and they can't take then ;-) (same goes with Rough riders iirc)

[NatBrannigan]

Oh really! Now that I did not know. Kreig are weird... ;)

 

Well if you can't take them they're a terrible option!

[depthcharge12]

Oh really! Now that I did not know. Kreig are weird... ;)

 

Well if you can't take them they're a terrible option!

We get better riders (death riders) but they are expensive money wise. You’re looking at paying 75 pounds or over $100 usd for an 80 point unit. And I need 3 fast attack choices...so yeah.

[Withershadow]

Krieg can take all Imperial options at no penalty.  They don't lose cult of sacrifice, and are still battle-forged for Objective Secured.  So Scout Sentinels work just as well for Krieg as any other non-Tallarn Regiment.  Tauros are another option, especially the Venator, since Krieg vehicles suck and the squads can't take heavy weapon teams.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Withershadow

[CrusherJoe]

Krieg can take all Imperial options at no penalty.  They don't lose cult of sacrifice, and are still battle-forged for Objective Secured.  So Scout Sentinels work just as well for Krieg as any other non-Tallarn Regiment.  Tauros are another option, especially the Venator, since Krieg vehicles suck and the squads can't take heavy weapon teams.

That's unfortunately incorrect.

 

Page 55 of Imperial Armour: Forces of the Astra Militarum lists the units that DKOK can take and keep the Death Korps regiment keyword, and the Sentinel isn't on that list. Neither is the Atermia Pattern Hellhound (which I thought it was) but the Hellhound is. I would say take Hellhounds and be done with it. Nothing says lovin' like Inferno cannons. :)

[Withershadow]

Did you read what I wrote? You don’t have to take those things as Krieg, they can be generic Imperial. The list merely states which models can have the Krieg keyword, nothing more. Unlike other regiments, Krieg does not need to be in a pure detachment to get their rules. By the way, the FAQ expands the selection quite a bit. Edited January 17, 2018 by Withershadow

[Tirak]

Yeah Wither's right here. There's no real penalty to taking a mixed detachment as Krieg because their Cult of Sacrifice ability isn't technically a Doctrine, so they don't lose it when you field a non homogeneous Regiment. Now of course on the reverse of that, any non sanctioned Krieg units included do not get their doctrine bonus, as Death Korps don't have a matching Regiment keyword to the non Krieg units, so they come naked as far as doctrine is concerned.

[depthcharge12]

Hmm that sounds wonky to me, but I can’t quite find anything that doesn’t let you mix and match, however, I feel that’s a question for a FAQ.

[Inso]

If you are going battle forged, doesn't it state that all units must be from the same faction? If that's the case, I would suggest that it would be DKoK in your brigade detachment... so sentinels wouldn't be allowed.

[NatBrannigan]

"Imperium" is a perfectly valid faction though, so if the DKOK special rules work differently to the <Regiment> keyword there's no harm adding ant Imperial fast attack choices. They (the non Krieg FA options) just won't have any chapter / Regiment etc rules.

 

In which case I throw my hat back into the Heavy Flamer armed Scout Sentinel ring. Or go crazy and stick in some Landspeeders or something. DKOK Scout Landspeeder conversion?

[Mileposter]

DKOK Scout Landspeeder conversion?

... **Twitch** ... If I didn't have nine other projects already...

[Spyboy]

@Inso, yes it does state that, however you can just make your faction Imperium. Dkok have no bonus to filling your detachments with dkok alone. Like how astra militarum worked back in the index.

 

Edit: ok forgot to refresh the page, some else already answered this lol.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Spyboy

[NatBrannigan]

No worries having a second opinion though, most of my ramblings might well be wrong!

[depthcharge12]

Ok so here’s my 2000 points of krieg in a Brigade, I decided to go down the three hellhound route (or rather 2 and a devil dog):

 

 

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - FW Death Korps of Krieg) ++

 

+ Lord of War +

 

Minotaur Artillery Tank

 

++ Brigade Detachment +9CP (Imperium - FW Death Korps of Krieg) ++

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Hellhounds

. Hellhound: Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon

 

Hellhounds

. Hellhound: Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon

 

Hellhounds

. Devil Dog: Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Melta Cannon

 

+ HQ +

 

Death Korps Death Rider Squadron Commander: Death Korps Orders, Laspistol, Power sword, The Blade of Conquest

 

Death Korps Field Officer: Death Korps Orders, Laspistol, Power sword, The Dagger of Tu'Sakh

 

Death Korps Marshal Karis Venner: Death Korps Orders, Grand Strategist, Hot-shot Laspistol, Memento Mori, Power sword, Warlord

 

Tank Commander: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter sponsons

. Command Battle Tank: Battle Cannon

 

+ Troops +

 

Death Korps Grenadier Storm Squad (6 grenadiers total)

. Death Korps Grenadier: Hot-Shot Lasgun

. Grenadier Vox-caster: Death Korps Vox-caster, Hot-Shot Lasgun

. Grenadier w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

. Grenadier Watch Master: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

. Grenadier Weapons Team: Heavy flamer, 2x Hot-Shot Lasgun

 

Death Korps Grenadier Storm Squad (6 grenadiers total)

. Death Korps Grenadier: Hot-Shot Lasgun

. Grenadier Vox-caster: Death Korps Vox-caster, Hot-Shot Lasgun

. Grenadier w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

. Grenadier Watch Master: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

. Grenadier Weapons Team: Heavy flamer, 2x Hot-Shot Lasgun

 

Death Korps Infantry Squad

. 7x Death Korps Guardsman

. Death Korps Watch Master: Lasgun

. DK Guardsman w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

. DK Guardsman w/Vox-caster: Death Korps Vox-caster

 

Death Korps Infantry Squad

. 7x Death Korps Guardsman

. Death Korps Watch Master: Lasgun

. DK Guardsman w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

. DK Guardsman w/Vox-caster: Death Korps Vox-caster

 

Death Korps Infantry Squad

. 7x Death Korps Guardsman

. Death Korps Watch Master: Lasgun

. DK Guardsman w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

. DK Guardsman w/Vox-caster: Death Korps Vox-caster

 

Death Korps Infantry Squad

. 7x Death Korps Guardsman

. Death Korps Watch Master: Lasgun

. DK Guardsman w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

. DK Guardsman w/Vox-caster: Death Korps Vox-caster

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Death Korps Heavy Weapons Squad

. Death Korps Heavy Weapons Team: Autocannon

. Death Korps Heavy Weapons Team: Autocannon

. Death Korps Heavy Weapons Team: Autocannon

 

Death Korps Heavy Weapons Squad

. Death Korps Heavy Weapons Team: Lascannon

. Death Korps Heavy Weapons Team: Lascannon

. Death Korps Heavy Weapons Team: Lascannon

 

Death Korps Leman Russ Mars-Alpha Battle Tanks

. Leman Russ Mars-Alpha Executioner: Lascannon, Turret-mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon

 

Heavy Mortar Battery

. Heavy Mortar: Guardsmen Crew, Guardsmen Crew, Guardsmen Crew, Heavy Mortar

. Heavy Mortar: Guardsmen Crew, Guardsmen Crew, Guardsmen Crew, Heavy Mortar

 

+ Elites +

 

Death Korps Combat Engineer Squad

. Combat Engineer Watch Master: Chainsword, Krieg Combat Shotgun

. 8x Combat Engineers: 8x Krieg Combat Shotgun

. Engineer w/Vox-caster: Death Korps Vox-caster, Krieg Combat Shotgun

 

Death Korps Death Rider Command Squadon

. 4x Death Korps Death Rider Veterans: 4x Death Korps Hunting Lance

 

Death Korps of Krieg Command Squad: 4x Frag & Krak grenades

. Command Squad Veterans

. Command Squad Veterans

. Command Squad Veterans

. Veteran w/Vox-caster: Death Korps Vox-caster

 

++ Total: [117 PL, 2000pts] ++

 

BattleScribe, for some weird reason, flips everything upside down lol. The reason I went with 2 hellhounds and a devil dog is to essentially replace what my knight Acheron did at that point level. While they’re nowhere near as good as it for pure damage, they are phenomenal at clearing chaff. In an edition that sees Alaitoc spam and crazy Nurgle to hit rolls, inferno cannons are king. The devil dog is to make up for the AT I lost by not having that freaking huge chainfist from the Acheron.

 

I’m a little worried about having understrength grenadier squads (6 guys total), but they are supposed to advance behind the hellhounds to keep blocking LoS and pushback the 9” drop bubble. Heavy flamer and melta gun can still shoot after advancing.

 

I also picked two relics, which sounds silly, but I have 12 command points total after all! :P my last game was an eye opener - the Tupac dagger did a great job moving my engineers where they needed to be to beta strike some sanguinary guard, but I needed some more oomph on my ponies. If you don’t get the charge off, you’re stuck with basic S3 and S4 attacks...so it made sense in my head just to give the pony commander the blade of conquest that is just flat up better and hits regardless of charging.

 

Thoughts?

[Spyboy]

I am not too well versed in dkok, but I do know heavy weapon squads loaded up with expensive weapons are prime targets for the enemy and don't last long. Maybe mix in some mortars to make them less threatening?

[depthcharge12]

I am not too well versed in dkok, but I do know heavy weapon squads loaded up with expensive weapons are prime targets for the enemy and don't last long. Maybe mix in some mortars to make them less threatening?

You are completely correct, though I’ve thought of Heavy stubbers or heavy bolters instead just as a cheap meatshield. Unfortunately, if your opponent wants them really dead, they’ll be gone pretty fast anyway.

[Doof]

Embed your Lascannons inside of your regular infantry squads, and make the heavy weapons squads take cheaper weapons so they are not a high priority target ( Mortars, Heavy Bolters, Heavy Stubbers) Are you going to bubble wrap the Minotaur with the 4 regular squads? If so, then i don't think you will need voxcasters for them.

[depthcharge12]

Embed your Lascannons inside of your regular infantry squads, and make the heavy weapons squads take cheaper weapons so they are not a high priority target ( Mortars, Heavy Bolters, Heavy Stubbers) Are you going to bubble wrap the Minotaur with the 4 regular squads? If so, then i don't think you will need voxcasters for them.

Can’t embed squads due to Krieg. I tend to stick them in cover and pop take cover strategem which keeps them around for 2 turns. I usually keep a bubble wrap of troops, however, after turn 2 it’s pretty useless unless there’s a ton of assault troops barreling forward.

 

I’ve learned to start playing objectives and the relic as they can shift who actually winds up winning.