Sanctioning the Alpha Legion

[b1soul]

If you were the Emperor and you had to task one legion (and one legion only) with destroying the Alpha Legion, which other legion do you think would be most suitable?

 

Say...the Alpha Legion went rogue during the late Great Crusade.

 

I'd go with the TSons as their psychic intelligence-gathering skills might hard-counter AL deception.

 

Thoughts? The AL are the slipperiest of serpents and are likely a fleet-based legion.

[Charlo]

White Scars.

 

They're an unknown factor to everyone, the AL included.

 

No doubt the AL would've known bout Russ and his apparent murdering of at least one other Primarch already so they'd be countered fairly easily.

 

The long-range operations of the Scars also means that they are less likely to have any existing AL operatives in either.

 

There is also a great moment in the fluff where the WS turbo-boost their ships and Alpharius is like "Uhm.... Aca-SCUSE ME?!", not to mention Jaghatai would probably kill Alpharius with fairly little effort.

[Kizzdougs]

Well it would be a pretty much impossible task. Not even the Alpha Legion don't know how many warriors the Legion has or where they all are, but if I had to chose I'd go with either the Space Wolves or the Thousand Sons, plus a strong dose of Custodes

Edited December 8, 2017 by Kizzdougs

[Riptor]

I'd probably use the Alpha Legion. They seem most up to the task of destroying the Alpha Legion.

 

Seriously though? I think due to Alphas tendency to infiltrate and sew confusion in other legions I'd possibly send a custodes force.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Riptor

[b1soul]

Why Custodes over TSons?

 

And Custodes are not a "legion" for the purpose of this thread. Other Astartes only

[rendingon1+]

DA and SW combined.

AL would be I think the hardest Legion to destroy. And obviously it wouldn't be Prospero with almost entire Legion siiting nicely on one planet. I bet AL would knew what is about to happen and would dissapear beyond the borders of the Imperium and/or splinter into thousands detachments to scatter all over the Imperium to do what they do in 40k.

 

Or Imperial Fists because Dorn apparently knows everything Alphrius would ever do.

Edited December 8, 2017 by rendingon1+

[Riptor]

My apologies, I skimmed over the part where you mentioned the legions.

 

I would have chosen the custodes due to their fighting doctrine being much more individualistic than the legions. I feel a group of warriors fighting alongside one another would be less susceptible to the Alpha Legions confusion tactics than a legion whom tended to be a more military force.

 

As for a legion? Possibly the first. I feel that the Dark Angels hubris and need to prove themselves the best would lead for them to be extra vigilant in keeping an eye out for AL trickery. Of course, great crusade era DA would be less paranoid then their post heresy counterparts, however they still seem to be one of the more vigilant legions.

[point_Zer0]

pfff... Anyone you send after AL is going to turn out saying "I am Alpharius" in the end. So it's impossible.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Loyalist emperors children. Dunno why. I just get a feeling they would know.

[Brother Heinrich]

while the White Scars are elusive and distant from their brothers, that doesn't exactly equate to them being able to tackle another legion that is elusive, distant, and deceptive in the extreme. Rooting out secrecy effectively and being effectively secretive are two very different things. 

 

My vote goes for Thousand Sons as well, since the only way to cut through the deception, misdirection, and shadowy nature of the Alpha Legion is by ripping the truth from their slimy brains.

[Charlo]

I don't think the thousand sons could mind-read the truth from them.

 

I think the AL is so strong willed in what it is doing that they probably all think they're alpharius.

[Brother Heinrich]

I don't think the thousand sons could mind-read the truth from them.

 

I think the AL is so strong willed in what it is doing that they probably all think they're alpharius.

The alpha legion operatives are aware they are operatives in all the books, thats something you can read...when you read someone's mind. Also it's not about finding Alpharius, but finding everyone who's an alpha and killing them.

[Marshal Rohr]

At this point, you can’t really destroy the Alpha Legion. You could destroy the military strength in open battle, and neuter their ability to conduct any conventional operations, but the galaxy wide network of insurgents and operatives is too vast.

[Zeratil]

 

I'd go with the TSons as their psychic intelligence-gathering skills might hard-counter AL deception.

 

 

  I'd pick the Sons too, but I think it would be a hard-fought battle whoever you chose. The psychic skills we've seen the AL use (in PoD) are exactly the kind of skills that would be needed to infiltrate the TS at least on a small scale. Even if the ability to do so is limited within the AL or could be detected by powerful Athaneans I don't think it's a tactic the Sons would see coming from any legion that wasn't their own. Pride is a weakness for both legions so I think each side would inevitably underestimate the other in ways other legions wouldn't. The Wolves and DA are probably also good candidates but no Legion is uninfiltratable, some are just easier than others. Sons would likely be the hardest but the techniques to do it exist in the lore, they're just likely very rare.

 

  Even then I'd say the AL would be one of the hardest legions to destroy, part of the reason Prospero was a 'success' was that it was, relative to other Astartes homeworlds, fairly easy pickings given the circumstances. Trying to conduct a similar operation on mostly fleet-based legions? One that's shown to heavily compartmentalise information even before the possibility of a legion full of mind-reading psykers comes after you? That's a tall order. I don't see the AL as stronger-willed than any other legion but you can't mind-read information that isn't there and the AL are well used to operating independently. Catching a garrison or a detachment isn't likely to yield you many captives with the information you seek about other elements, and I'd bet most AL officers would be willing to die to protect compartmentalised information.

 

  The main advantage for the TS would be the Corvidae rather than the Athaneans I think. Mind-reading is more easily countered, especially by a legion like the AL. Countering psykers who can predict your movements would be much trickier, even if such prognostication isn't too reliable. You can limit information spread all you want but if Ahriman wakes up at 3am one morning and says 'The main legion fleet is heading for the Zone of No Return' there's not a huge amount you can do to counter that.

 

[b1soul]

I don't think we could preclude AL infiltration of the TSons

 

...but could we preclude TSon infiltration of the AL?

 

Malcador thinks Magnus is the most subtle of all the primarchs, and though we know Hawser was being used by Chaos, not the TSons...we know that the TSons are capable of waging (and do wage) espionage campaigns. I recall that Inferno mentions the TSons have a whole branch dedicated to intelligence/counterintelligence.

 

Infiltrators who target the TSons run the risk of being subtly turned and used against their original faction.

 

I also think the SW would be very hard to infiltrate. The SW seem to have an innate ability to recognise (or "sniff out") the Canis Helix. Perhaps the AL would try to infiltrate with mortal serfs...but Astartes infiltration would probably be more effective if possible.

 

Hard to say how the DA would fare. They had the balls to attempt infiltration of the AL but Ormand concedes that the AL are born to such tactics.

[JeffJedi]

Sons of Horus! Cut the head off the snake.

 

 

;)

[rendingon1+]

But who says infiltration is possible anyway? And why people insist it all comes down to one side infiltrating the other - what then? I think it is oversimplifying things and common stereotipical approach when talking about legions (like: no, Iron Warriors / Imperial Fists won't be good at x because they will "fortify this position" instead of doing x).

 

Also sugesting that TS would just "see the future" or "read the minds" is not very accurate either. If that was true they would be the most successfull Legion ever in every situation. How will you read minds in void warfare? And how seeing the future (because IT works every time and is super accurate, right?) will help TS when by AL strategy and tactics they find themselves outnambered, misdirected etc.

[Xenith]

Sons of Horus! Cut the head off the snake.

 

 

 

Horus couldn't wipe out the Raven guard, even with six other legions in support.

[Marshal Rohr]

But who says infiltration is possible anyway? And why people insist it all comes down to one side infiltrating the other - what then? I think it is oversimplifying things and common stereotipical approach when talking about legions (like: no, Iron Warriors / Imperial Fists won't be good at x because they will "fortify this position" instead of doing x).

 

Also sugesting that TS would just "see the future" or "read the minds" is not very accurate either. If that was true they would be the most successfull Legion ever in every situation. How will you read minds in void warfare? And how seeing the future (because IT works every time and is super accurate, right?) will help TS when by AL strategy and tactics they find themselves outnambered, misdirected etc.

I might need to reread their Inferno articles but I thought it was accepted that they were very successful.

[Brother Heinrich]

 

Sons of Horus! Cut the head off the snake.

 

 

 

Horus couldn't wipe out the Raven guard, even with six other legions in support.

 

lol burn

[bluntblade]

Horus broke three Legions at that battle, in circumstances which were not ideal for him at all.

 

Destroying a Legion - any Legion - would require more than a single other. You'd want Titans, Army, whatever assets will minimise the cost and ensure a clean victory.

Edited December 10, 2017 by bluntblade

[Kizzdougs]

Horus broke three Legions at that battle, in circumstances which were not ideal for him at all.

 

Destroying a Legion - any Legion - would require more than a single other. You'd want Titans, Army, whatever assets will minimise the cost and ensure a clean victory.

What!?! How were the circumstances "not ideal for him at all"?

 

Horus had four Legions in a strong defensive position. The Traitor's positions had been meticulously prepared by the Emperor's Children (ie. the Legion that pre plans everything to an obsessive level) with trench systems, kill zones, and reinforced fortifications. They had time to conceal troops, plant mines, and prepare the battlefield.

 

Horus also had four more Legions in reserve that would enter the battle after the three loyalist Legions were already battered and bloody. To make things worse the Loyalists thought that the Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Iron Warriors were still loyal and coming to support them, so those four Legions had the element of surprise and were able to position themselves perfectly before launching their attack where the Loyalists were most vulnerable.

 

Usually when laying siege to an enemy position (as the Loyalists were doing) you want to outnumber the defenders by at least 2/1... That's roughly what the numbers would have been if the four reinforcing Legions had been loyal to the Emperor. But instead of being 2/1 in favour of the Loyalists it was actually 2/1 in favour of the Traitors (and that estimate is generous to the Loyalists considering that only a single Clan of the Iron Hands made it to Isstvan in time for the battle and the Salamanders and Raven Guard were both relatively small Legions). The Traitors also had the significant advantages of surprise, a fortified position, and fresh troops in reserve. Even if it was just the Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, and World Eaters against the Loyalists the Traitors would still have had the advantage thanks to their greater numbers strong defensive position.

 

I'm not sure that you can claim that the circumstances were against Horus...

 

 

 

Ps. Sorry if I've totally misunderstood your statement

Edited December 11, 2017 by Kizzdougs

[bluntblade]

Think strategically as well as tactically. Horus was still plotting the rebellion itself. Isstvan III ended up a mess. The four Legions with him had taken serious losses besides the number they had culled. Moreover no one on the Loyalist side was meant to know until later, and the Iron Hands were meant to be on side. That's a whole other Legion, one of the strongest, suddenly an enemy and not an ally. Horus then has to bring five more Legions into the system in time to deliver that hammerblow.

[b1soul]

I think the only strike against Horus is that even though it was 8 legions vs. 3 legions, the Traitor legions (at least some) had to cull quite a few loyalists.

 

Still, the advantages lay overwhelmingly with the Traitors. It was an absolute curbstomp.

[bluntblade]

When I say think strategically, Horus probably intended to set other traps for the RG and Salamanders. His armies could have moved straight out from their starting positions rather than all converging on Isstvan and going from there.