Sanctioning the Alpha Legion

[Zeratil]

But who says infiltration is possible anyway? And why people insist it all comes down to one side infiltrating the other - what then? I think it is oversimplifying things and common stereotipical approach when talking about legions (like: no, Iron Warriors / Imperial Fists won't be good at x because they will "fortify this position" instead of doing x).

 

Also sugesting that TS would just "see the future" or "read the minds" is not very accurate either. If that was true they would be the most successfull Legion ever in every situation. How will you read minds in void warfare? And how seeing the future (because IT works every time and is super accurate, right?) will help TS when by AL strategy and tactics they find themselves outnambered, misdirected etc.

  I don't think anyone is saying that it all comes down to infiltration, or that the TS powers are completely reliable (I noted specifically that they're not). Certainly no-one is saying that the Thousand Sons, or any single legion, is going to just turn up and curb stomp another single legion.  That being said infiltration and intelligence gathering are incredibly effective weapons when used well, even over the sorts of distances and times 30k is dealing with. Effective infiltration by either side exposes plans and strategies and places operatives in positions to do critical damage at precisely the right time. See famous examples such as Operation Fortitude, the Double Cross system or the Special Operations Executive in WWII. The Alpha Legion are undoubtedly the most prolific and successful users of these kinds of techniques and many more besides during the Crusade and the Heresy. I'd put the Thousand Sons and Raven Guard as seconds to them, albeit in different areas of covert activity. Any large scale conflict between the TS and the AL is going to involve these kinds of techniques and trying to counter them. Thus the numerous mentions in this thread.

 

  As for psychic powers they are certainly not completely reliable, but they are incredibly hard to counter, especially in the Heresy era when the use of librarians is relatively limited and many legions largely eschew their use. That's one of the primary reasons for the burning of Prospero, a long-running plot of Tzeentch to ensure the downfall and extermination of the legion best-able to counter daemons. Large scale use of psychic abilities such as divination in the planning an execution of attacks is part of the TS's modus operandi. It's how the smallest legion and the one with the most stringent recruitment criteria even began to compete with the larger legions that could recruit more easily.

[b1soul]

Psychic abilities are not an "I Win" button...but they're more than a minor advantage

[slitth]

The Alpha Legion is a hard foe.

But I think the trick to beat them are to put them on the back foot.

They defence by taking an active offensive action.

 

So you need someone with good tactics like Horus or Ferrus Manus.

I think Perturabo may be able to do it to.

 

But the best are the hidden hunters. Konrad Curze or Corvus Corax.

It's hard to defend against a enemy hidden and strikes from the shadow.

 

Especially Curve would be effective as he is driven to seek out and find criminals.

And his cruelty would be most effective.

A city has a hidden Alpha Legion agent, they are guilty of incompetence. All must die.

[bluntblade]

They're a tricky proposition because they're so dispersed, is the main thing. The flip side is that you wouldn't face the nightmare scenario of trying to break open, for example, Prospero, Fenris or Medusa. Edited December 11, 2017 by bluntblade

[Brother Lunkhead]

I'd probably use the Alpha Legion. They seem most up to the task of destroying the Alpha Legion.

 

Seriously though? I think due to Alphas tendency to infiltrate and sew confusion in other legions I'd possibly send a custodes force.

 

Yup, I'd definitely call on the Alpha Legion to do the job. Seems right up their alley 

 

Well... if they're not available then a Custodes force would be the next best thing. Due to their unique position and duty in the Imperium they would have an intelligence network at least on par with AL. They hone their infiltration skills (as well as other skills and strategies) with the 'blood sport" games. They would be almost impossible to infiltrate. I don't think the AL could come up with many suprises for them. Of coarse they might also call on one of the other legions (probably the Space Wolves) for final execution.

[Brother Heinrich]

 

I'd probably use the Alpha Legion. They seem most up to the task of destroying the Alpha Legion.

 

Seriously though? I think due to Alphas tendency to infiltrate and sew confusion in other legions I'd possibly send a custodes force.

 

Yup, I'd definitely call on the Alpha Legion to do the job. Seems right up their alley

 

Well... if they're not available then a Custodes force would be the next best thing. Due to their unique position and duty in the Imperium they would have an intelligence network at least on par with AL. They hone their infiltration skills (as well as other skills and strategies) with the 'blood sport" games. They would be almost impossible to infiltrate. I don't think the AL could come up with many suprises for them. Of coarse they might also call on one of the other legions (probably the Space Wolves) for final execution.

 

The problem with Custodes being a sanctioning force is numbers, they simply don't have them, wheres of all the legions, the Alpha Legion potentially numbers the greatest.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Being the youngest legion, I think the lit says they are the smallest legion. Whereas, before Magnus' little "warning" incident that let all the daemons in the warp pour into the webway beneath the Emperor's palace, the Custodes numbered about 100k.

 

In any event, the Custodes would probably be in overall command of a task force of one or more legion forces, as I suggested in the last sentence of my post.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Brother Lunkhead

[Kizzdougs]

Being the youngest legion, I think the lit says they are the smallest legion.

 

The Custodes would probably be in overall command of a task force of one or more legion forces, as I suggested in the last sentence of my post.

The Alpha Legion's numbers are unknown. They are one of the bigger Legions and could be the largest (probably not), but no one knows, not even the Alpha Legion. They have fleets and sleeper cells all over the Imperium and beyond. Some wear the Alpha Legion's colours, others wear black or unmarked silver armour. Many of them operate completely independently and some of them don't even know that they are part of the Alpha Legion...

 

Also, it is believed that the Legion has been operating since the unification of Terra and the Sol system. The bit about them being the youngest and only just up to full strength when Alpharius was found is old fluff from the Index Astartes article. The recent Forge World background is a bit different.

 

 

Edit: the Custodes were only ever 10k strong. They are known as 'The Ten Thousand'.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Kizzdougs

[b1soul]

A Custodes detachment would certainly be welcome, like the 980 strong force under Valdor at Prospero. I wouldn't send the entirety of the Ten Thousand off the chase the AL.

[Zeratil]

Being the youngest legion, I think the lit says they are the smallest legion. Whereas, before Magnus' little "warning" incident that let all the daemons in the warp pour into the webway beneath the Emperor's palace, the Custodes numbered about 100k.

 

In any event, the Custodes would probably be in overall command of a task force of one or more legion forces, as I suggested in the last sentence of my post.

  HH III gives their numbers likely being between 120,000-180,000. The upper limit of that would put them as around the 3rd/4th biggest legion at the start of the Heresy. Their contemporaries in size would be Ultramarines at 250,000, Word Bearers at 'numbers approaching the Ultramarines' and Iron Warriors (150,000-180,000).

 

  I don't think any of the remaining heresy legions would have numbers that large, WS and BA always struck me as 'not among the biggest' and the DA are supposed to have never regained their former numbers after the Third Rangdan Xenocide.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Zeratil

[Calas Typhon]

The only thing close to this we have is the culling of the Thunder Warriors. They did not really have the whole of the Imperium to roam around and so there was a cage and nowhere to go.

 

No legion could be sanctioned to the point of destruction, unless you can Guarantee you have all the legionaries accounted for or the Legion has a built in nature to die. Alpha Legion could never be destroyed by outside forces unless you can corrupt the geneseed they have to failure. you could not sanction them outside of cutting down sizeable forces and killing the Primarchs. Once you kill them off, the rest would just scatter around the galaxy to black pits and hidden garrisons, rebuild and plan. Then you have a shifting set of multiple tridents ready to stick into your rib cage every time your focus turns away. 

 

Pretty similar to how they are in 40K.

 

An order to kill the Alpha Legion would have to be taken up by a group of Legions without the Alpha Legion having any knowledge at all. Someone mentioned the Raven Guard not being able to be wiped out by Horus with six Legions which is probably the only way you would kill the AL. Horus actually managed to knock the Raven Guard out of the fight and leave them unable to fight decently other than small sabotage attacks and possibly got closest to completely destroying a Legion or two. They would be completely gone if Angron managed to get close to Corax before the dropships suddenly appeared. The Alpha Legion in this situation would probably fare no better. But again, why would they deploy their whole force and two Primarchs?

 

I suppose the Emperor could just hire some Black Library writers to do the job?

Edited December 12, 2017 by Warsmith Kroeger

[Brother Lunkhead]

A Custodes detachment would certainly be welcome, like the 980 strong force under Valdor at Prospero. I wouldn't send the entirety of the Ten Thousand off the chase the AL.

 

Oh, I agree.... the primary task of the Custodes is  the physical protection of the Emperor. I'm simply saying that they probably have the best chance at planning and leading such an operation.

 

In the end though, Warsmith Kroeger is probably right... a nigh impossible task.

[Daddywarcrimes]

while the White Scars are elusive and distant from their brothers, that doesn't exactly equate to them being able to tackle another legion that is elusive, distant, and deceptive in the extreme. Rooting out secrecy effectively and being effectively secretive are two very different things. 

 

My vote goes for Thousand Sons as well, since the only way to cut through the deception, misdirection, and shadowy nature of the Alpha Legion is by ripping the truth from their slimy brains.

 

Every Marine can get the truth from their slimey brains.  Just need to crack open their skulls and start eating.

[b1soul]

Yes, but doing it with psychic powers is more efficient

[Zeratil]

Psychic powers are always tricky because there isn't really an established baseline of what they can and can't do in the fiction as opposed to the hard rules of the tabletop. This means people often have different baselines about what is and isn't possible and how easy or hard it is to do. Especially when it comes to things (like mental interrogation) that don't really come into play through any tabletop rule set. Everyone will inevitably have their own opinion as to how effective (or not) such strategies will be - which is fine of course, that's just 40k.

[Withershadow]

Can’t be done, too many contingencies.

[Withershadow]

My vote goes for Thousand Sons as well, since the only way to cut through the deception, misdirection, and shadowy nature of the Alpha Legion is by ripping the truth from their slimy brains.

Alpha Legion probably is more competent at telepathy-style stuff than even the Sons, considering how they can rewrite memories and transfer souls and whatnot. Any info gleaned from invading their minds would be useless at best, or more likely misdirection.

 

 

As for Horus and Istvaan, I don’t think it’s possible to have a better set up than what he had. He successfully crushed the majority of the enemy, leaving small pockets that managed to escape and hide out in the wilds. His next step was going to be incinerating the planet to finish off any surgivors, but Angron ruined it with his usual brain-dead ways.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Withershadow

[bluntblade]

Was talking Isstvan v

[Withershadow]

That is also what I am talking about.  Istvaan III was an entirely different thing.

[no I'm alpharius]

 

while the White Scars are elusive and distant from their brothers, that doesn't exactly equate to them being able to tackle another legion that is elusive, distant, and deceptive in the extreme. Rooting out secrecy effectively and being effectively secretive are two very different things. 

 

My vote goes for Thousand Sons as well, since the only way to cut through the deception, misdirection, and shadowy nature of the Alpha Legion is by ripping the truth from their slimy brains.

 

Every Marine can get the truth from their slimey brains.  Just need to crack open their skulls and start eating.

 

 

A custodes once tried to infiltrate my legion. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti.

[Memento Of Prospero]

When I say think strategically, Horus probably intended to set other traps for the RG and Salamanders. His armies could have moved straight out from their starting positions rather than all converging on Isstvan and going from there.

 

This is a very hollow case defense. You are at best alleging that his plans had changed (which as far as we know did not). He had the element of suprise, both on the ground and in the stars. He had overwhelming numerical and positional advantage he had his enemy surrounded and on desperate ground.

 

By any accounts of warfare, that is prime conditions to conduct operations. They were the best he could hope for.

 

He was not expecting Ferrus to be on his side, he hoped for it; he already wasn't trusting Fulgrim completely at the time.

[bluntblade]

I'm saying that was part of it. My point is that Horus' ideal plan had been derailed.

 

However, I do think the mistrust crept in when Fulgrim failed him. Very much seems to me that Horus thought Ferrus would turn.

[helterskelter]

Convince Tchulcha that it's a good idea to eradicate them. And the job is done.

[Memento Of Prospero]

However, I do think the mistrust crept in when Fulgrim failed him. Very much seems to me that Horus thought Ferrus would turn.

He did not plan on it - at that point e had converted all those he knew he could (it's in one of the shorts were he talks to Fulgrim before sending him off), but he does wish he did in Vengenful Spirit.

 

But Fulgrim being so confident in his ability to turn his closest brother, he let him try anywaus. Regardless of success or failure, Isstvan V was already in motion.

 

Ferrus being so reckless also played into his favour, so he did not only get setbacks. This was a huge boon.

 

 

Back on topic, I think the premise of this topic is skewed. The Emperor would not send one legion to take another out, because they would most likely kill each other, resulting in a massive loss.

 

That's the main reason when Prospero was written to include sister and custodes.

 

But if I had to pick, Raven Guard.

 

Once the Raven Guard found out they had been infiltrated, they were able to snuff out all remain agents almost instantly.

 

They play the shadow play just as well, minus the over inflated ego.

[Aramis K]

I think it would require legions practiced at subtle thinking. I agree that the Thousand Sons seem a good choice, but not alone. To destroy a legion means deploying overwhelming force in many places. Anything less would become a grind and likely cripple the attacking legion as well.

 

But I'd be most interested to see the Dark Angels do it. They have the mix of raw power and capability. I'm particularly interested in the early Ravenwing forces as I see them being more rounded hunters than the pursuit bikers they become. They know how to watch and listen and they know when to strike. And they're happy to use exotic tech to get the job done.

I like to think the Raven Guard and Alpha Legion learned a lot from the Ravenwing. I hope we learn more about them in Angelus.