Sanctioning the Alpha Legion

[b1soul]

The idea of this thread is that one legion has to be assigned the task of neutering the Alpha Legion, but you may give them a lot of Talons, Army, Assassinorum support.

[Withershadow]

If given materiel support to compensate for the Alpha Legion's enormous resources, I would say only the Thousand Sons would stand a chance at rooting them out completely. Only the Athaneans could possibly cut through the psychic/mental conditioning of the Alpha operatives.

[helterskelter]

I'm telling you it's the Dark Angels.

"Tchulcha, take me to the alpha legion"

Arrives at planet X

"Lord Jonson what shall we do with the planet"

"Blow it up just to be sure"

[point_Zer0]

I'm telling you it's the Dark Angels.

"Tchulcha, take me to the alpha legion"

Arrives at planet X

"Lord Jonson what shall we do with the planet"

"Blow it up just to be sure"

"I'm sorry, Lord Jonson, but Hydra Dominatus. Lord Alpharius awaits you in your quarters" xD

[Arminius_Warbringer]

With all that we know about the Alpha Legion, the answer here should be obvious to all, there isn't a legion in existence that is capable of sanctioning the Legion. You can't behead the Hydra!

[Memento Of Prospero]

The alpha legion would sabotage itself out. Loyalist legionnaires would cripple the whole structure and turn it against itself. We've all read that novel.

 

Also, many seem to overestimate the dept of the legion's ressources. The game is deception and hearsay. They have been revealed to bluff many times with nothing to back it up. The fake armada blockading the white scars is one such example.

 

It's certainly not easy, as no legion would be, but I sincerely doubt they are "impossible to root out".

[Kizzdougs]

They had sleeper agents all over Terra and even under the Imperial Palace. I image that they'd have sleeper agents all over the galaxy as well. It's rumoured in Massacre that some Alpha Legion cells/forces don't even know that they are a part of the Legion or part of a larger whole, and that some forces are so cut off from the Legion structure that they think that they're the Alpha Legion, not just a small sleeper cell/splinter force. 

 

They might not have the military materiel resources that they sometimes claim, but the fangs of the Alpha Legion are sunk so deeply and widely into the Imperium that it would be all but impossible to destroy them all. Even if the Thousand Sons could psychically 'crack' an Alpha Legionnaire, even a high ranking one, they wouldn't be able to find all of the Legion's warriors because not even the Alpha Legion knows where all of its warriors are.

[LukeTheButcher]

Simple Really.

 

Send in the Wolves. A quick 'helmets off' policy would allow the Wolves to sniff out any snuck in agents. Then the rest is war.

 

Might not exterminate them to a man, but they wouldn't be a Legion by the end of it either.

[foamy248]

Simple Really.

 

Send in the Wolves. A quick 'helmets off' policy would allow the Wolves to sniff out any snuck in agents. Then the rest is war.

 

Might not exterminate them to a man, but they wouldn't be a Legion by the end of it either.

Yep. Sniffer dogs are very handy

[Memento Of Prospero]

They had sleeper agents all over Terra and even under the Imperial Palace. I image that they'd have sleeper agents all over the galaxy as well. It's rumoured in Massacre that some Alpha Legion cells/forces don't even know that they are a part of the Legion or part of a larger whole, and that some forces are so cut off from the Legion structure that they think that they're the Alpha Legion, not just a small sleeper cell/splinter force.

 

They might not have the military materiel resources that they sometimes claim, but the fangs of the Alpha Legion are sunk so deeply and widely into the Imperium that it would be all but impossible to destroy them all. Even if the Thousand Sons could psychically 'crack' an Alpha Legionnaire, even a high ranking one, they wouldn't be able to find all of the Legion's warriors because not even the Alpha Legion knows where all of its warriors are.

Again, lots of unknowns and unverifiable. Sleeper cells systems crumble all the time, and agents that are under constraint might actually drop out of the network upon hearing the new of a traitor branding.

 

You don't need to kill them all; just enough to render the their activities inconsequential in an Imperium of a million stars.

[Calas Typhon]

Enough is all of them. One marine can influence enough people to corrupt a world if it is his role in the legion. If you have an apoc with the relevant knowledge and geneseed you could more than likely breed more legionaries. Let's be honest, the alpha legion have cashes all over the galaxy so it's highly probable they have hidden geneseed reserves all over too.

 

One world is not much, one forgeworld that is depended on by hundreds of worlds is.

 

It's a mistake to think that anything but total wiping of the legion from the books is ok.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Again, even if one marine can take over a planet, it is meaningless in the grand scale of the imperium. Threats to it must be on a significant scale to matter. A legion of operatives is a threat, a few scattered operatives is an annoyance.

[rendingon1+]

Again, even if one marine can take over a planet, it is meaningless in the grand scale of the imperium.

Errr.... yes, it matters? By this logic nothing really matters considering the scale of the Imperium.

[Brother Lunkhead]

The Alpha Legion is everywhere...... they are the oldest legion..... they are the youngest legion..... they are big..... they are small..... the lore has changed so  much over the years. But this fits into the theme of the Alpha Legion.... this big unknown is what makes them so interesting, and if you play them you can pretty much make them out who you want them to be. But I don't think they are the huge omnipresent boogey man some make them out to be, otherwise they would have taken over by now.... like the Illuminati.... oops, I'm doomed now 

 

Anyway, big or small, omnipresent or not, I don't think a single legion can effectively sanction them. The Space Wolves sanctioned the Thousand Son and they are still a credible threat. The Ultramarine primogenitors almost wiped out the Night Lords at Tsagualsa. The Night Lords still remain a credible threat. But, I suppose if the Imperium is willing to expend enough resources you might over time render them inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

 

 

 

They had sleeper agents all over Terra and even under the Imperial Palace. I image that they'd have sleeper agents all over the galaxy as well. It's rumoured in Massacre that some Alpha Legion cells/forces don't even know that they are a part of the Legion or part of a larger whole, and that some forces are so cut off from the Legion structure that they think that they're the Alpha Legion, not just a small sleeper cell/splinter force.

They might not have the military materiel resources that they sometimes claim, but the fangs of the Alpha Legion are sunk so deeply and widely into the Imperium that it would be all but impossible to destroy them all. Even if the Thousand Sons could psychically 'crack' an Alpha Legionnaire, even a high ranking one, they wouldn't be able to find all of the Legion's warriors because not even the Alpha Legion knows where all of its warriors are.

Again, lots of unknowns and unverifiable. Sleeper cells systems crumble all the time, and agents that are under constraint might actually drop out of the network upon hearing the new of a traitor branding.

You don't need to kill them all; just enough to render the their activities inconsequential in an Imperium of a million stars.

 

 

As Brother Athramar suggests, it's a big galaxy. And no matter who you are, you will not be missed.

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

 

Again, even if one marine can take over a planet, it is meaningless in the grand scale of the imperium.

Errr.... yes, it matters? By this logic nothing really matters considering the scale of the Imperium.

If you bothered to read the two lines of text that followed this quote, you wouldn't be using a hyperbolic falacy.

[rendingon1+]

So next time use "quote" when you reply to a post above. Still, you're wrong.

[Calas Typhon]

Again, even if one marine can take over a planet, it is meaningless in the grand scale of the imperium. Threats to it must be on a significant scale to matter. A legion of operatives is a threat, a few scattered operatives is an annoyance.

Wrong, one forgeworld that would supply one hundred worlds opens up vulnerabilities to those worlds, which in turn opens up paths to other systems and other worlds. Its about choosing the right worlds rather than pointless worlds. Do you really think the Alpha Legion would just take over a planet which has no benefit or use in the long run?

 

Cadia is an example of one world which makes your point false.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Warsmith Kroeger

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

Again, even if one marine can take over a planet, it is meaningless in the grand scale of the imperium. Threats to it must be on a significant scale to matter. A legion of operatives is a threat, a few scattered operatives is an annoyance.

Wrong, one forgeworld that would supply one hundred worlds opens up vulnerabilities to those worlds, which in turn opens up paths to other systems and other worlds. Its about choosing the right worlds rather than pointless worlds. Do you really think the Alpha Legion would just take over a planet which has no benefit or use in the long run?

 

Cadia is an example of one world which makes your point false.

 

 

Right. But I highly doubt a legionnaire or even a single cell cut off from the legion can overthrow a major planet / forgeworld in this context. You need to back that up, because there is no evidence they could do this. Especially in a scenario where they are branded traitors (on their own) and are actively being sought out. Half of the legion doesn't know what the other half is doing, at all times, Omegon is playing Alpharius at the very top. The legion would collapse on itself.

 

As far as we know, from published sources and not head cannon, the AL do not have that kind of ability on a small scale. They were able to put random fringe worlds against each other in the wake of Horus's rebellion - this is a fact, it's in the books - the agriworld short story is a good example.

 

However, cell type organizations don't stand up to losing their chain of command. They are independent yes, but work on a need to know basis. They are cut off from knowing other cell activities, greater overall strategies and material location. Because if they did, them being caught would compromise the organization's operations. 

 

So no, you don't need to kill every single one. This is absurd. You take off the head and a good chunk of the body and the other organisms will die off.

[Lucerne]

...Which is why Alpha Legion cell organization is explicitly built around independent operations and rapid response to losing the chain of command.

 

The Alpha Legion in Index Astartes and more recent lore has had multiple attempts to wipe them out and shut them down as suggested, and it hasn't worked because they're built from the cell up to frustrate that approach.

 

Cutting heads off a hydra doesn't work- hence the symbolism- you burn the stumps.

 

As for inability to meddle with worlds, it's noted that 1/100 of their campaigns are actually attributed to them due to the way they wage war, they've been noted to sabotage hive worlds, and a lot of their lore has them singling out strategically valuable worlds- Vraks is just one example of an Alpha Legion warband taking away a valuable cog in the Imperial defense of Cadia and setting up a horribly messy bloodbath with a few whispered words in the ear of a cardinal.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Ugolino

[Memento Of Prospero]

Thanks for bringing that up. In 40k a whole bunch of Alpha legionnaires survived the heresy with their supposedly great networks of cells and operatives. I mean, this is more than a few straggled survivors we are talking about. 10,000 years later, this unstoppable conspiracy machine as yet to cause the Imperium to fall, despite being able to wreck havoc with just a few agents.

 

I wonder why? Because they are not nearly as good as you think they are.

 

If the sum of the work involved in the fall of Vracks was just uttering a few words, the AL would be dining in the golden throne. Except the end result does not represent the effort and ressources required to obtain it.

[rendingon1+]

I detect strong AL dislike heh. As for the worlds. In Imperium worlds in a system / sector are usually dependant on each other. You have agri worlds that provide food for others etc. Cut it off and you have serious problem. The sole fact of re

[Calas Typhon]

You are forgetting, each individual warband in this time line had it's own goals and plans. In a timeline where the AL are sanctioned, that might not be the case. And if the secretly loyal nonsense has anything to do with it in the current timeline it could factor in.

 

Do you actually know how hounded the alpha legion are by the inquisition? I mean they have been declared wiped out by them 3 times(?) Despite That, they manage to cause massive amounts of disruption to the imperium and flip worlds to chaos through manipulation.

 

Published sources over head cannon is a bit off for me. Horus heresy stories target key points in the timeline rather than every single operation and every single fight every legionary fights. So it's pretty logical to take what you know they do and apply it to the rest of the universe. The audio short was a great example of one instance this has been used in the heresy, so it's extremely likely it's happening somewhere ot everywhere else.

 

Some examples for you of how well things can go for one marine or a cell.

 

Look up the crimson consuls. A single alpha legionary managed to wipe out a chapter of space marines

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crimson_Con

 

The scouring of makkenna

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Scouring_of_Makenna_VII

 

Luxor uprising

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Luxor_Uprising

 

Avernia

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Avernia

 

And related to the heresy: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Exodus

 

Perhaps they are as good as I think. I would take them over anyone else if I wanted a world taken.

[Lucerne]

Thanks for bringing that up. In 40k a whole bunch of Alpha legionnaires survived the heresy with their supposedly great networks of cells and operatives. I mean, this is more than a few straggled survivors we are talking about. 10,000 years later, this unstoppable conspiracy machine as yet to cause the Imperium to fall, despite being able to wreck havoc with just a few agents.

 

I wonder why? Because they are not nearly as good as you think they are.

 

If the sum of the work involved in the fall of Vracks was just uttering a few words, the AL would be dining in the golden throne. Except the end result does not represent the effort and ressources required to obtain it.

...Except that wasn't the point. If you read the lore, they're a spanner in the works, not a bulldozer. Their success state is stated in their 6e Codex lore blurb where they point out the Imperium's a mess and they baldly state they helped that happen.

 

The Alpha Legion's stated to have been thought to be wiped out repeatedly- there's clearly meant to have been a long-term series of shadow wars against the Imperium with messy results every time.

 

Vraks was an absolute operational success for the Alpha Legion with the main mistake Arkos made being not getting out sooner and getting hung out to dry at the last second.

 

Look at the result- for one warband's investment, they outright butchered hundreds of the Dark Angels on a fool's errand, caused a massive war that dragged in entire Chapters and forces over a world that should have been an Imperial bulwark and basically caused the expenditure of massive amounts of manpower and effort in a pointless war that won the Imperium nothing and cost it quite a lot. That's the reward for the Alpha Legion's style of warfare- they can inflict disproportionate damage and injury against a numerically superior foe and set up painful quagmires that end up bleeding the Imperium dry...if their plans are allowed to come to fruition.

Edited December 25, 2017 by Ugolino

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Thanks for bringing that up. In 40k a whole bunch of Alpha legionnaires survived the heresy with their supposedly great networks of cells and operatives. I mean, this is more than a few straggled survivors we are talking about. 10,000 years later, this unstoppable conspiracy machine as yet to cause the Imperium to fall, despite being able to wreck havoc with just a few agents.

 

I wonder why? Because they are not nearly as good as you think they are.

 

If the sum of the work involved in the fall of Vracks was just uttering a few words, the AL would be dining in the golden throne. Except the end result does not represent the effort and ressources required to obtain it.

...Except that wasn't the point. If you read the lore, they're a spanner in the works, not a bulldozer. Their success state is stated in their 6e Codex lore blurb where they point out the Imperium's a mess and they baldly state they helped that happen.

 

The Alpha Legion's stated to have been thought to be wiped out repeatedly- there's clearly meant to have been a long-term series of shadow wars against the Imperium with messy results every time.

 

Vraks was an absolute operational success for the Alpha Legion with the main mistake Arkos made being not getting out sooner and getting hung out to dry at the last second.

 

Look at the result- for one warband's investment, they outright butchered hundreds of the Dark Angels on a fool's errand, caused a massive war that dragged in entire Chapters and forces over a world that should have been an Imperial bulwark and basically caused the expenditure of massive amounts of manpower and effort in a pointless war that won the Imperium nothing and cost it quite a lot. That's the reward for the Alpha Legion's style of warfare- they can inflict disproportionate damage and injury against a numerically superior foe and set up painful quagmires that end up bleeding the Imperium dry...if their plans are allowed to come to fruition.

 

 

You can understand then, given how you just described them, why people find their lore distasteful. Mary Sue, even. 

[rendingon1+]

And you're saying this because?...

 

BTW Every legion is distasteful Mary Sue in their given expertise.