Sanctioning the Alpha Legion

[Marshal Rohr]

That’s not true.

[LukeTheButcher]

I thiink people need to remember that if the Alpha Legion where/are as good as their loyal fans beleive, the Heresy would have succeded. The books aimed at making them look good/formidale are exceptions, not the rule.

 

Argubly the same point for evey fiction.

 

But HH is a look back on a perspective given a historical contex. In that context, the Alpha Legion where a military Legion of super/Trans-human warriors.They where an army. There job was conquring (as where ll the Legions). If you take away their ability to act in that role, you have succeded. They may adopt punative roles, but they are not a force of conquest. Ergo, many Legions could have acheived that aim.

 

Exterminating them? Impossible.

 

Because the writers would never have allowed any Legion to be written like that. Because they are paying service to the AL fans. Throwing around literiture to support a position is a bit moot.  Who would support(buy) product for the exterminable Legion? So there is nothing and never will be anything written to support the absolute destruction of a Legion.

 

 

Drops the mike.

[point_Zer0]

I thiink people need to remember that if the Alpha Legion where/are as good as their loyal fans beleive, the Heresy would have succeded. 

 

As it turns out, it is qiute certain, that one of the twins was loyal. So they were sabotaging ecah other plans.

[Calas Typhon]

Picks up the mic

 

I don't think they are the best thing ever, I doubt many fans of the AL do either and they are aware of the problems involved in the Legion.

 

Its shown quite often they fail and underestimate plans, overcomplicate things and end up getting wiped out in quick assaults or through enemies thinking outside of the box. 

The Alpha Legions role in the Heresy can't be said because we literally have no clue about the mess the AL are in during the Heresy. They could be half and half, in a total civil war between Brothers which is only known by the AL, or they might even be full on Chaos worshippers. 

 

Regardless of all of that and how good/bad they are, there are points for both sides, The way they make war and capture objectives leaves you with the only outcome being total annihilation and wiping out all traces of the Legion to fully remove all the teeth and hooks embedded into the Imperium, Single legionaries have the capability to cause some serious harm to the Imperium as stated many many times. The legion can and does fight separately between legionaries, squads and companies. So you could remove the Army and they would still work pretty well split apart. 

If we are talking about how they can't be exterminated because they writers of Black Library would not let them because of the fans, then it makes all this discussion pointless, because they wont get destroyed in sanction. Its a discussion of In universe stuff.

Edited December 25, 2017 by Warsmith Kroeger

[Kizzdougs]

I thiink people need to remember that if the Alpha Legion where/are as good as their loyal fans beleive, the Heresy would have succeded. The books aimed at making them look good/formidale are exceptions, not the rule.

 

Argubly the same point for evey fiction.

 

But HH is a look back on a perspective given a historical contex. In that context, the Alpha Legion where a military Legion of super/Trans-human warriors.They where an army. There job was conquring (as where ll the Legions). If you take away their ability to act in that role, you have succeded. They may adopt punative roles, but they are not a force of conquest. Ergo, many Legions could have acheived that aim.

 

Exterminating them? Impossible.

 

Because the writers would never have allowed any Legion to be written like that. Because they are paying service to the AL fans. Throwing around literiture to support a position is a bit moot.  Who would support(buy) product for the exterminable Legion? So there is nothing and never will be anything written to support the absolute destruction of a Legion.

 

 

Drops the mike.

What about the lost Legions (II & XI)? They were destroyed...

 

Yes, it would almost certainly take more than a single Legion to destroy another Legion, but it could be done. The Salamanders and the Raven Guard were nearly destroyed at Isstvan V. If Corax hand't been rescued it was almost certain that Angron would have killed him and his remaining warriors. Just because Legions aren't destroyed in the fluff (except for the II & XI), doesn't mean that they couldn't be.

 

I recon most of the Legions could be destroyed in a fairly conventional manner. If the Emperor had decided to sanction/destroy the Night Lords or World Eaters I recon they would have been destroyed. There'd inevitably be some survivors, but those survivors wouldn't be specifically trained to operate outside of the regular Legion chain of command in the same way as the Alpha Legion is. Surviving Night Lords or World Eaters would become pirates and Blackshields, where as surviving Alpha Legion would still be able to operate effectively. The Alpha Legions' whole 'thing' is that they're able to continue to operate even if their chain of command has been disrupted or destroyed. It's a bit of a cliche but the whole "cut off one head and another grows in its place" was the Alpha Legions' greatest quality even before they became the MI6/CIA Legion when they were introduced to the series in Legion. 

 

The Alpha Legion doesn't need the same numbers or resources as other Legions to remain an effective force. Yes, they were capable of conquering worlds in the standard Legion manner, but they weren't exclusively reliant on standard Imperial tactics in the same sense as the Ultramarines, Sons of Horus, Imperial Fists, Iron Warriors etc. The were perfectly capable of operating as individuals or smaller squads/cells to achieve their conquests. Exodus conquered twelve worlds with a single shot. This is an extreme example, but it demonstrates that the Alpha Legion are able to do more with less.

 

When it comes to sanctioning/destroying a Legion, only Legions with significant asymmetric capabilities would stand a chance of surviving as an effective force. In my opinion only the Thousand Sons and the Alpha Legion would be capable of surviving an Imperial sanction. 

 

 

Edit: also, how do you bring the Alpha Legion to battle? If another Legion was given Imperial authority to sanction/destroy the Alpha Legion it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that the Alpha Legion would find out and simple go to ground, dispersing their forces all across the galaxy. Even if the 'execution' Legion managed to catch the Alpha Legion by surprise I can't imagine that the Alpha Legion sails around as a unified Legion that could easily be cornered and destroyed.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Kizzdougs

[Withershadow]

In that case, the Alpha Legion would intercept the orders and change the name of the Legion to be sanctioned and write themselves in as a supporting force for the Sanction Fleet. 

[bluntblade]

Uuuurgh...

 

So the Emperor would do as He did with the Thousand Sons and proclaim His judgement to the Primarchs at large.

[Withershadow]

Uuuurgh...

 

So the Emperor would do as He did with the Thousand Sons and proclaim His judgement to the Primarchs at large.

Except he didn't?  And that's why it was so easy for Horus to change the orders, attach one of his units to the "sanction" fleet, and not only ensure the destruction of the Sons, but also decimate the Wolves as a bonus?

[b1soul]

No...the AL, as you claim them to be, would make the other legions dim-witted and redundant in comparison to the invincible Hydra

[Withershadow]

Now you're getting it. :P

[bluntblade]

Horus changed Russ' orders. However the broader point - that the Legions as a whole were told of Magnus' censure - stands, as Inferno bears out.

 

The Alpha Legion would cause a monstrous headache, but against the entire military machine of the Imperium, they're going down

[slitth]

I thiink people need to remember that if the Alpha Legion where/are as good as their loyal fans beleive, the Heresy would have succeded. The books aimed at making them look good/formidale are exceptions, not the rule.

 

That depend on their goal.

If they believed that only the Emperor could defeat Horus, then their job is to get Horus in position for the killing blow.

And Horus was killed above Terra on a ship with no shield at the end.

[bluntblade]

So their goal changes according to the end result, in the eyes of their fans.

 

And even as far as the AL's own actions go in bringing that about, do you mean to tell me that for example, Autilon Skorr worked to ensure the invasion of Mezoa failed in such a way that the Warmaster's march on Terra would be almost imperceptibly hindered? A lot of AL fandom seems to turn them into a bundle of dei ex machina.

Edited December 28, 2017 by bluntblade

[Withershadow]

We are actually just Bond villains who overplan and overtwirl our mustaches, but nothing is worth doing if you're not doing it with dramatic flair.

[slitth]

So their goal changes according to the end result, in the eyes of their fans.

 

And even as far as the AL's own actions go in bringing that about, do you mean to tell me that for example, Autilon Skorr worked to ensure the invasion of Mezoa failed in such a way that the Warmaster's march on Terra would be almost imperceptibly hindered? A lot of AL fandom seems to turn them into a bundle of dei ex machina.

 

It is a possibility that that was the plan.

They had see a vision the showed that they could only "win" with Horus being killed by the Emperor.

So they could have planned for this to be the end goal

But I highly doubt that the way it went as originally planned.

In fact the last part of the siege was probably more of a hail mary pass for the Alpha Legion, instead of the well coordinated operations that they usually prefer.

And result was probably a big disappointment for them.

Yes they "won", but if they where trying to maintain the Imperium as envisioned by the Emperor then result could be viewed as a total disaster.

 

So no matter how you look at it the Alpha Legion lost and are more or less trying to rework the defeat in to something else.

A true dei ex machina would have see the Emperor dead or the imperium rebuild in following the true vision of what the Emperor wanted.

And not the empire of epic fails and horror that it has become.

[karden00]

 

I thiink people need to remember that if the Alpha Legion where/are as good as their loyal fans beleive, the Heresy would have succeded. The books aimed at making them look good/formidale are exceptions, not the rule.

 

Argubly the same point for evey fiction.

 

But HH is a look back on a perspective given a historical contex. In that context, the Alpha Legion where a military Legion of super/Trans-human warriors.They where an army. There job was conquring (as where ll the Legions). If you take away their ability to act in that role, you have succeded. They may adopt punative roles, but they are not a force of conquest. Ergo, many Legions could have acheived that aim.

 

Exterminating them? Impossible.

 

Because the writers would never have allowed any Legion to be written like that. Because they are paying service to the AL fans. Throwing around literiture to support a position is a bit moot.  Who would support(buy) product for the exterminable Legion? So there is nothing and never will be anything written to support the absolute destruction of a Legion.

 

 

Drops the mike.

What about the lost Legions (II & XI)? They were destroyed...

 

Yes, it would almost certainly take more than a single Legion to destroy another Legion, but it could be done. The Salamanders and the Raven Guard were nearly destroyed at Isstvan V. If Corax hand't been rescued it was almost certain that Angron would have killed him and his remaining warriors. Just because Legions aren't destroyed in the fluff (except for the II & XI), doesn't mean that they couldn't be.

 

I recon most of the Legions could be destroyed in a fairly conventional manner. If the Emperor had decided to sanction/destroy the Night Lords or World Eaters I recon they would have been destroyed. There'd inevitably be some survivors, but those survivors wouldn't be specifically trained to operate outside of the regular Legion chain of command in the same way as the Alpha Legion is. Surviving Night Lords or World Eaters would become pirates and Blackshields, where as surviving Alpha Legion would still be able to operate effectively. The Alpha Legions' whole 'thing' is that they're able to continue to operate even if their chain of command has been disrupted or destroyed. It's a bit of a cliche but the whole "cut off one head and another grows in its place" was the Alpha Legions' greatest quality even before they became the MI6/CIA Legion when they were introduced to the series in Legion. 

 

The Alpha Legion doesn't need the same numbers or resources as other Legions to remain an effective force. Yes, they were capable of conquering worlds in the standard Legion manner, but they weren't exclusively reliant on standard Imperial tactics in the same sense as the Ultramarines, Sons of Horus, Imperial Fists, Iron Warriors etc. The were perfectly capable of operating as individuals or smaller squads/cells to achieve their conquests. Exodus conquered twelve worlds with a single shot. This is an extreme example, but it demonstrates that the Alpha Legion are able to do more with less.

 

When it comes to sanctioning/destroying a Legion, only Legions with significant asymmetric capabilities would stand a chance of surviving as an effective force. In my opinion only the Thousand Sons and the Alpha Legion would be capable of surviving an Imperial sanction. 

 

 

Edit: also, how do you bring the Alpha Legion to battle? If another Legion was given Imperial authority to sanction/destroy the Alpha Legion it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that the Alpha Legion would find out and simple go to ground, dispersing their forces all across the galaxy. Even if the 'execution' Legion managed to catch the Alpha Legion by surprise I can't imagine that the Alpha Legion sails around as a unified Legion that could easily be cornered and destroyed.

 

 

The highlighted sections are what matter. 

First and foremost, the idea of legions being too vulnerable to other legions entirely kills the motivation to collect said legions. 

Every example of one legion gaining dominance over another legion is almost always qualified by several factors, be it surprise betrayal, where the unsuspecting forces had, on paper, enough to put down the ambushers, had they not been traitors, (Isstvan, Calth) or there were significant force multipliers at work, (Prospero, Thramas [Tchulchulchultchulchululua]). 

 

When such multipliers are at work, it is repeatedly demonstrated in fluff that legions can certainly be brought down low. 

[slitth]

I doubt that any legion would be executed in one action.

 

Yes each legion has a specific type of warfare that they prefer.

But that does not mean they are incapable of only one thing.

Each space marine army are flexible to the extreme and will adapt to their situation.

 

I think the important factor for any legion ability to fight back would the the level of support they can get from the imperium.

Yes the Alpha Legion will be hard to pin down and execute.

But after they are single of for sanctions they will be hard pressed to resupply or gather sympathy.

After all their every nature and way of fighting are ill suited to gather allies to their cause.