Disappointed

[depthcharge12]

As for the whole chaff clearing thing, why not use 10 tactical terminators with the 3cp strategem? It doesn’t specify you have to shoot at one unit, so why not shoot one gribbly squad, then shoot a separate one and let morale take care of those who weren’t killed in the torrent of storm bolter shots?

 

If you kill two loaded up guard squads, that’s two whole squads of (supposed) anti terminator firepower right there!!! :P ok I didn’t mean that condescendingly but it opens a hole for your Ravenwing to Assault through. Slap a Librarian terminator in the squad with the eye of the unseen relic and laugh when you cast Fights Last, morale debuffs, etc.

 

Should be a big enough distraction to let your plasma dudes, las dreds, and predators get another round of shooting without harassment.

 

 

Edit: teleportation doesn’t explicit say it counts as moving. Have fun rerolling any 1’s out of those 80 dice :devil:

Edited December 11, 2017 by depthcharge12

[Orkinstein]

so just wrote a list, its very rough:

 

Guard brigade (mostly for CP, screens and deep strike denial)

company commander x3

3 acolytes

6 infantry squads

3 scout sentinels

3 mortar teams

 

Azrael plasma line:

azrael

lieutenant

shroud

banner

hellblasters++ (thinking probably 2 squads of 10)

 

Flyer wing

3 dark talons (why not, only 140 points now, 420 for 3 flyers like that is pretty sweet)

Well the hurricane bolter is 10 points now. So it's 160 each.

[march10k]

 

 

 

I'm thinking that their intent is to induce us to play Unforgiven Soup, the DA answer to Imperial soup. A darkshroud shadowing two crusaderloads of melee terminators under the covering fire of 3 damage plasma vets? Or maybe plasma devs? I'll have to see which one makes more sense.

Aren't Dark Angels better just by virtue of getting sruff like the Storm Raven?.

Storm Raven? How is that a bonus when I already have a Storm Eagle?

Yeah, you're right. Dropping a dreadnought with a platform that has massive firepower isn't useful.

If and only if you were planning on deepstriking dreads and are still mourning the loss of derp pods, then yeah. But if you want a flying assault ramp for terminators and maybe a nice bit of lascannon action on top? Steagle all the way.

How about you can do the exact same with a Raven? It has the same amount of dakka if not more, slightly less room for transportation of infantry ('only' 7 terminators) and can carry ANY dread, including a Leviathan.

 

And yes, it will be a fire magnet, which is why it works well with a Darkshroud for us, since it makes most people hit it on 6's For more fun, you can even use a Deredeo Dread with Automantic Pavise, but that's adding up quick. With just the Darkshroud though, it'll be tough as nails to kill and deliver goods at a rapid pace.

 

If you want to transport a dread and if you want horde control, then, yeah.  Sure.  I don't need to transport a dread, and I want mine kitted out for antitank.  So...horses for courses.

[Helycon]

 

 

 

 

 

I'm thinking that their intent is to induce us to play Unforgiven Soup, the DA answer to Imperial soup. A darkshroud shadowing two crusaderloads of melee terminators under the covering fire of 3 damage plasma vets? Or maybe plasma devs? I'll have to see which one makes more sense.

Aren't Dark Angels better just by virtue of getting sruff like the Storm Raven?.

Storm Raven? How is that a bonus when I already have a Storm Eagle?

Yeah, you're right. Dropping a dreadnought with a platform that has massive firepower isn't useful.

If and only if you were planning on deepstriking dreads and are still mourning the loss of derp pods, then yeah. But if you want a flying assault ramp for terminators and maybe a nice bit of lascannon action on top? Steagle all the way.

How about you can do the exact same with a Raven? It has the same amount of dakka if not more, slightly less room for transportation of infantry ('only' 7 terminators) and can carry ANY dread, including a Leviathan.

 

And yes, it will be a fire magnet, which is why it works well with a Darkshroud for us, since it makes most people hit it on 6's For more fun, you can even use a Deredeo Dread with Automantic Pavise, but that's adding up quick. With just the Darkshroud though, it'll be tough as nails to kill and deliver goods at a rapid pace.

If you want to transport a dread and if you want horde control, then, yeah. Sure. I don't need to transport a dread, and I want mine kitted out for antitank. So...horses for courses.

You can kit a Stromraven out for anti tank as well with multimeltas and lascannons, whilst still having the missiles too. The hurricanes are optional and can still be used anyway if you have 20 points to spare.

[Inverse]

Edit: teleportation doesn’t explicit say it counts as moving. Have fun rerolling any 1’s out of those 80 dice

 

I don't have the book yet but how are you seeing that teleportation doesn't count as moving?  It always has in terms of heavy weapons and any other rules.

[depthcharge12]

 

 

Edit: teleportation doesn’t explicit say it counts as moving. Have fun rerolling any 1’s out of those 80 dice

I don't have the book yet but how are you seeing that teleportation doesn't count as moving? It always has in terms of heavy weapons and any other rules.

Data sheet says set up at the end of movement phase. No explicit statement unless in a FAQ that says “counts as having moved”. Usually they add that in there for no confusion.

 

Edit: I’ve just checked the errata for both the index and Codex SM and did not see anything about teleportation counting as moving.

Edited December 11, 2017 by depthcharge12

[Zectz]

There is a part in the FAQ which says that teleportations count as having moved for firing weapons though. So all your terminator heavy weapons double firing with strategem will be at -1.

[depthcharge12]

There is a part in the FAQ which says that teleportations count as having moved for firing weapons though. So all your terminator heavy weapons double firing with strategem will be at -1.

FAQ says if there’s a rule that REDEPLOYS as in removes and sets back down again, then it does. You are not redeploying. Gate of infinity picks you up and relocated you. Teleportation strike (not homer) is just regular deployment.

[Inverse]

 

There is a part in the FAQ which says that teleportations count as having moved for firing weapons though. So all your terminator heavy weapons double firing with strategem will be at -1.

FAQ says if there’s a rule that REDEPLOYS as in removes and sets back down again, then it does. You are not redeploying. Gate of infinity picks you up and relocated you. Teleportation strike (not homer) is just regular deployment.

 

 

Arguing stuff like this with people at the table always turns me off this game.  I don't want to come off as someone who is nickle and diming the rules but for the past however many editions teleporting has counted as moving and now it doesn't?  I wish they would be explicit with things like this that has changed in previous editions.

 

The double fire on DW is much better if we are able to reroll ones.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Inverse

[depthcharge12]

 

 

 

There is a part in the FAQ which says that teleportations count as having moved for firing weapons though. So all your terminator heavy weapons double firing with strategem will be at -1.

FAQ says if there’s a rule that REDEPLOYS as in removes and sets back down again, then it does. You are not redeploying. Gate of infinity picks you up and relocated you. Teleportation strike (not homer) is just regular deployment.

Arguing stuff like this with people at the table always turns me off this game. I don't want to come off as someone who is nickle and diming the rules but for the past however many editions teleporting has counted as moving and now it doesn't? I wish they would be explicit with things like this that has changed in previous editions.

 

The double fire on DW is much better if we are able to reroll ones.

Im challenging the assumption that it did count - one person says something and other people just assume they are correct without reading it. Happens all the time in the news :P

 

I don’t want to get aggressive with this but I genuinely don’t see anywhere it says it counts as moving. To counter the past editions argument - Terminators has special rules that ignored moving and firing heavy weapons...they even still had it this same year before the new edition dropped :D

 

I see where you’re coming from the whole counts as moving, but I don’t see anything mentioned explicitly that says it does. I’m willing to be proven wrong! But this forum has a nasty habit of saying something (headcannon/4chan story fluff) and accepting it as gospel lol.

 

It would kind of suck to have 2/3rds of the Dark Angel Codex (Death/Raven) not be able to use their chapter tactic. I understand Ravenwing will likely never use it, and that’s fine because they have a whole host of other gimmicks, but it would seem odd to even have the reroll 1’s if most of the Codex can’t even use it except in weird situations (why would you not Assault with terminators or move your bikes to get jink?)

[Inverse]

 

 

 

There is a part in the FAQ which says that teleportations count as having moved for firing weapons though. So all your terminator heavy weapons double firing with strategem will be at -1.

FAQ says if there’s a rule that REDEPLOYS as in removes and sets back down again, then it does. You are not redeploying. Gate of infinity picks you up and relocated you. Teleportation strike (not homer) is just regular deployment.

Arguing stuff like this with people at the table always turns me off this game. I don't want to come off as someone who is nickle and diming the rules but for the past however many editions teleporting has counted as moving and now it doesn't? I wish they would be explicit with things like this that has changed in previous editions.

 

The double fire on DW is much better if we are able to reroll ones.

Im challenging the assumption that it did count - one person says something and other people just assume they are correct without reading it. Happens all the time in the news

 

I don’t want to get aggressive with this but I genuinely don’t see anywhere it says it counts as moving. To counter the past editions argument - Terminators has special rules that ignored moving and firing heavy weapons...they even still had it this same year before the new edition dropped

 

I see where you’re coming from the whole counts as moving, but I don’t see anything mentioned explicitly that says it does. I’m willing to be proven wrong! But this forum has a nasty habit of saying something (headcannon/4chan story fluff) and accepting it as gospel lol.

 

It would kind of suck to have 2/3rds of the Dark Angel Codex (Death/Raven) not be able to use their chapter tactic. I understand Ravenwing will likely never use it, and that’s fine because they have a whole host of other gimmicks, but it would seem odd to even have the reroll 1’s if most of the Codex can’t even use it except in weird situations (why would you not Assault with terminators or move your bikes to get jink?)

 

I agree it would kind of suck... but I wouldn't rule it out.  The DA books seem to always have weird things that should work together but then don't especially when it comes to DW.

[Loar]

 

Im challenging the assumption that it did count - one person says something and other people just assume they are correct without reading it. Happens all the time in the news

 

I don’t want to get aggressive with this but I genuinely don’t see anywhere it says it counts as moving. To counter the past editions argument - Terminators has special rules that ignored moving and firing heavy weapons...they even still had it this same year before the new edition dropped

 

I see where you’re coming from the whole counts as moving, but I don’t see anything mentioned explicitly that says it does. I’m willing to be proven wrong! But this forum has a nasty habit of saying something (headcannon/4chan story fluff) and accepting it as gospel lol.

 

It would kind of suck to have 2/3rds of the Dark Angel Codex (Death/Raven) not be able to use their chapter tactic. I understand Ravenwing will likely never use it, and that’s fine because they have a whole host of other gimmicks, but it would seem odd to even have the reroll 1’s if most of the Codex can’t even use it except in weird situations (why would you not Assault with terminators or move your bikes to get jink?)

 

 

This was like a week 1 question when 8th first came out, why is it being argued about again?  It 100 percent counts as moving.  This isn't even an FAQ/Errata question.  Its straight out of the main rulebook.  If you pull your rulebook out its under "Reinforcements" on the sidebar on the Movement page.  You can check the Battle Primer PDF for this as well, page 3:

 

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/40k/warhammer_40000_en.pdf

 

And you're right, it does suck that 2/3rds of the DA codex (DW/RW) basically don't get to use their chapter tactic at all   Thus the name of this thread.  There was a lot of phoned-in, uninspired effort here in this codex and it shows.  We can still play and have fun, but its definitely a more mediocre/bland codex out of all the releases so far.  It's pretty evident the focus here was to normalize DA and bring them more in line with codex SM and the new Primaris range.  This came at the expense of focusing on what really made DA unique (DW/RW).  It is what it is and we will have to wait for either a new codex or future supplements/CA to maybe regain some of that flavor that was lost.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Loar

[Zectz]

 

There is a part in the FAQ which says that teleportations count as having moved for firing weapons though. So all your terminator heavy weapons double firing with strategem will be at -1.

FAQ says if there’s a rule that REDEPLOYS as in removes and sets back down again, then it does. You are not redeploying. Gate of infinity picks you up and relocated you. Teleportation strike (not homer) is just regular deployment.

Alright then. How about page 177 in rulebook.

 

"Reinforcements. Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using *teleporters*, grav chutes or other....... Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting heavy weapons......"

 

It's pretty clear, no matter how hard you try to spin it. And before you try and say they don't count as reinforcements, they do, anything that sets up mid turn is counted as reinforcement.

[Interrogator Stobz]

+++ Nearly time to put this thread to rest, if there is nothing further in the way of constructive input it will feel the lock soon. +++

[depthcharge12]

 

 

There is a part in the FAQ which says that teleportations count as having moved for firing weapons though. So all your terminator heavy weapons double firing with strategem will be at -1.

FAQ says if there’s a rule that REDEPLOYS as in removes and sets back down again, then it does. You are not redeploying. Gate of infinity picks you up and relocated you. Teleportation strike (not homer) is just regular deployment.

Alright then. How about page 177 in rulebook.

 

"Reinforcements. Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using *teleporters*, grav chutes or other....... Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting heavy weapons......"

 

It's pretty clear, no matter how hard you try to spin it. And before you try and say they don't count as reinforcements, they do, anything that sets up mid turn is counted as reinforcement.

Technically it’s end of turn...but that goes to show how bad GW is at editing these things :P

 

So perhaps we should lobby a complaint with GW then? “Hey we don’t even get to use our chapter tactic you gave us...”

 

Kind of odd for the past how many editions you had no penalty for moving and shooting with Terminator armor and then bam, they don’t even put it in the data sheets that teleportation counts?

[dtse]

Dudes don’t derail my thread!

[bozo69pd]

Dudes don’t derail my thread!

We are just reiterating how the DA book is just underwhelming in so many ways.

[depthcharge12]

Dudes don’t derail my thread!

Sorry my thought process went from “oh maybe there are some nuances we are missing” to “well maybe GW made a mistake” to “nope they goofed.”

[shandwen]

There are many ways we all think that GW could have better represented what we think the DA are, but they did a decent job dropping (in very quick work) a rather good book. Could they have made termites better: yeah, but everything else is better. Even with what amounts to a situational chapter tactic is still far surpasses what MOST others recieved. As for stratigums the DA are spoiled, with many of what can easily be described as the best.

Time will tell how they will fall in line competitively, but I don't imagine DAs to be much bellow Ultras with the big G.

[ShadowCore67]

Honestly, I don't think there's many things that are bad about the codex.

 

My only major complaints are Deathwing Assault stratagem is too expensive and that Deathwing have like 3 overlapping morale rules that are all useless basically.

 

The other things like grim resolve or our psychic powers, yeah they're not amazing but they're not bad either.

Edited December 12, 2017 by ShadowCore67

[Stoic Raptor]

 

 

for the past however many editions teleporting has counted as moving and now it doesn't?  I wish they would be explicit with things like this that has changed in previous editions.

 

You may have noticed that this is not previous editions.  There's a lot that's different.  If everything was like 7th, there'd be no point in releasing 8th.

"That's the way it was in the last edition" is not a rule.

[Berzul]

I just have one thing to say about the new codex. A drop of 40 points in the cost of a Dark Talon.... man, I am getting me a Flyer Wing of these things like, NOW. Want to talk about chaff clearing units? 6 hurricane bolters and 3 bomb runs. That will clear the path for you...

[sneakybamsen]

If it's down to 140, you still have to add the two bolters, so it should be 160 points which is still strong, especially considering it wasn't bad at 188...

[Berzul]

28 points less is still a huge difference! :D

[jlmb_123]

 

Technically it’s end of turn...but that goes to show how bad GW is at editing these things

 

 

I almost agreed with you, you sneaky chap, but it isn't end of turn, it's mid-turn and end of [movement] phase! Here's the bit from the rulebook:

 

40K Battle Primer, p.3: Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn ...Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive ... but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons.

 

 

Anyway, from what I've seen it looks like a good book that does what Dark Angels always do: make you slog to get your wins. There's no auto-win list but there are lots of units that are just that bit cooler and more specialised than their Space Marine equivalent that they're like-for-like better but that bit harder to use. You need to focus your units against what you want to destroy whilst trying to nullify damage from what you can't deal with immediately.