Disappointed

[Phoebus]

There are many ways we all think that GW could have better represented what we think the DA are, but they did a decent job dropping (in very quick work) a rather good book.

 

Take this with a large grain of salt, because I haven't actually seen the new Codex. My issue is, why is "a decent job" acceptable? Why isn't it a case of releasing the new edition after its Codices have also been written and vetted?

[Chmur]

I received the Codex yesterday... flicked through it and here are some thoughts:

 

If you are doing Power Levels and not points, you're in for a ride and it's good

 

New units - they are okay addition. We were fine as we were, new units add something on the tabletop and to the fluff (already have the scout company training with bikes so the Marine is then easily transitioned into RW when advances laid out in my fluff locker)

 

Chapter tactic + Stratagems - they are okay. Like any other codex there will be 3-4 go to stratagems (seriously, advance for 4++ jink on RW Knights, full shooting and then charge is just awesome). It could've been better, but it's no slouch. Even Grim resolve is good once you start thinking about your competetive lists beyond "Azrael Gunline"

 

Grim resolve + Azrael change - with the change to Azrael invul and with Grim resolve on the field, I expect seeing less armour and more infantry and bikes out there, which in itself pushes the 3-wing aspect of the Dark Angels. Competetivness? I think we should not really pass a judgement on that until all codices are out and 2018 Chapter approved brings everything back in line. We're living in wild, but wonderful times.

 

Warlord traits - for me the biggest letdown of the Codex. A missed opportunity to go unique. On the other hand, 8th is about making the WH40K baggage simple, using similar(same) things for most armies so players can relate and understand easily. From this point of view, good job. So it's like that, nothing special, but nothing underpowered either. Your standard SM stuff.

 

Psychic powers - these seem... interesting. Unfortunately i think you will need huge investment into making them work, but with some clever aura stacking they can be fun. I reserve judgment on these, since you are always going to Smite and I still prefer the first 3 (index) to the additional 3 (codex). Mainly because of the stupid roll to manifest and then roll off to do something mechanic.

 

Book - The intro to the book was a huge letdown. The old history and Fall of Caliban is simplified and shortened to give way to promo new Primaris, who after most of our Chapter and Successors get eviscerated and/or lost in Warp, parade in ready to save the day. And yes, that is pretty much quoting the book. It just felt a bit forced sales pitch at that point. Changing of lore in that way is okay in my books, just read many BL comments on this and from other authors as well, for example ADBs last AMA on Reddit; pretty much nothing is canon - you should consider everything written about the fluff of anything as if it would be from old archives, skewed by rememberancer who wrote it yadda yadda. TL;DR - nobody knows the truth, only memories as they were recorded.

 

Primaris - they are coming. Like it or not, it's the new marines. From sales to points push, we are getting them. I do not want to start discussion that is going on in other threads, but in the words of Codex, these guys have more pure Lion geneseed and it's only matter of time before they will have to be inducted to DW/IC.

 

Fluff character description pages - these are awesome! Seriously, so much fun reading those, really nice.

 

Conclusion: So yeah. While some may be dissappointed and there are some parts of the codex I do not like that much, all in all we now have reason to play with all the toys we have and we'll be fine.

[Trunkello]

I received the Codex yesterday... flicked through it and here are some thoughts:

 

If you are doing Power Levels and not points, you're in for a ride and it's good

 

New units - they are okay addition. We were fine as we were, new units add something on the tabletop and to the fluff (already have the scout company training with bikes so the Marine is then easily transitioned into RW when advances laid out in my fluff locker)

 

Chapter tactic + Stratagems - they are okay. Like any other codex there will be 3-4 go to stratagems (seriously, advance for 4++ jink on RW Knights, full shooting and then charge is just awesome). It could've been better, but it's no slouch. Even Grim resolve is good once you start thinking about your competetive lists beyond "Azrael Gunline"

 

Grim resolve + Azrael change - with the change to Azrael invul and with Grim resolve on the field, I expect seeing less armour and more infantry and bikes out there, which in itself pushes the 3-wing aspect of the Dark Angels. Competetivness? I think we should not really pass a judgement on that until all codices are out and 2018 Chapter approved brings everything back in line. We're living in wild, but wonderful times.

 

Warlord traits - for me the biggest letdown of the Codex. A missed opportunity to go unique. On the other hand, 8th is about making the WH40K baggage simple, using similar(same) things for most armies so players can relate and understand easily. From this point of view, good job. So it's like that, nothing special, but nothing underpowered either. Your standard SM stuff.

 

Psychic powers - these seem... interesting. Unfortunately i think you will need huge investment into making them work, but with some clever aura stacking they can be fun. I reserve judgment on these, since you are always going to Smite and I still prefer the first 3 (index) to the additional 3 (codex). Mainly because of the stupid roll to manifest and then roll off to do something mechanic.

 

Book - The intro to the book was a huge letdown. The old history and Fall of Caliban is simplified and shortened to give way to promo new Primaris, who after most of our Chapter and Successors get eviscerated and/or lost in Warp, parade in ready to save the day. And yes, that is pretty much quoting the book. It just felt a bit forced sales pitch at that point. Changing of lore in that way is okay in my books, just read many BL comments on this and from other authors as well, for example ADBs last AMA on Reddit; pretty much nothing is canon - you should consider everything written about the fluff of anything as if it would be from old archives, skewed by rememberancer who wrote it yadda yadda. TL;DR - nobody knows the truth, only memories as they were recorded.

 

Primaris - they are coming. Like it or not, it's the new marines. From sales to points push, we are getting them. I do not want to start discussion that is going on in other threads, but in the words of Codex, these guys have more pure Lion geneseed and it's only matter of time before they will have to be inducted to DW/IC.

 

Fluff character description pages - these are awesome! Seriously, so much fun reading those, really nice.

 

Conclusion: So yeah. While some may be dissappointed and there are some parts of the codex I do not like that much, all in all we now have reason to play with all the toys we have and we'll be fine.

So whats up with the chapter ancient's Sacred Standard rule? Can you look that up?

[dtse]

I do think primaris are worth playing wth. Obviously. 10 man hellblasters squad putting out 3 damage per shot with rerolls will be enough to literally kill anything. Aggressors are quite good but not sure of a way that dark angels can deploy them effectively other than being backfield defenders. I have made a list allying in space wolves (since it seems GW wants us to do that lol) that outflanks 9 aggressors. Gonna try that out.

 

We are definitely better than index but as I’ve said. That’s a low bar. We are not a top tier codex. Mid tier at best in a true competitive meta.

[Zectz]

Yes can you confirm the chapter ancient/sacred standard thing please :)

[Phoebus]

Chmur,

 

Any changes to the major characters? Is it still Azrael, Ezekiel, Belial, Sammael, Asmodai, etc.? Or are there any new leaders among the Dark Angels or the Unforgiven as a whole?

[Chmur]

@all: Currently at work and then going to dinner with boss, so no can do until I get home. But I will try to get it to you then!

 

Chmur,

 

Any changes to the major characters? Is it still Azrael, Ezekiel, Belial, Sammael, Asmodai, etc.? Or are there any new leaders among the Dark Angels or the Unforgiven as a whole?

 

No new named characters, no fluff expansion in that regard.

 

Only major change is Azzy, Lions helm granting 4++ only to INFANTRY and BIKE models

 

EDIT: Another major change is that our named characters have FIXED loadouts. So you cannot take claws or TH/SS on Belial etc. They come as complete WYSIWIG package.

 

New entries - Lieutenant (non primaris), A Master speeder (think non-named Sammael) - at least that is all I remember now that was not in codex, as mentioned at the start of the post, I will update this later.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Chmur

[Chmur]

Primary information on standards - we do not get anything that is not in the codex, and we have everything with the same wording as in codex.

 

No relic standard or anything.

 

Sorry if this disappoints.

[Hoots]

I'm with those that are disappointed that the Deathwing didn't get any love: yes they should be a hard army to play with but right now they are virtually impossible, it's sad cause like many others they are what got me into playing and they rarely seen on the table these days.

 

I'd also have like to have seen more strategies to make the ravenwing/deathwing feel more synergised.  As I'm not a big fan of combat bikes as a concept I've not collected much ravenwing so that's not changing how i play much but it's a sad omission in my opinion.

 

Having Azzys aura ability debuffed really hurts my current list (we'll see if that recently purchased second predator gets many games now) but may mean we'll see more of my devs on the board if i do still take him.  It also prevents a little glimmer of hope I had of having azrael actually pilling forward in a protected stormraven once on a while :( shame 

 

The only thing I'm pleased about is the stormraven, my deathwing knights finally have a bit more maneuverability. 

[Berzul]

I would have loved to see the following:

 

1) Summon the Deathwing. A stratagem or an item to allow us to drop the Deathwing closer to the enemy, through the use of the Ravenwing.

2) Ravenwing Attack Squadrons. A stratagem that allowed a Ravenwing Bike Squad to be bolstered in their firing by the presence of a Landspeeder or a Landspeeder Vengeance, similarly to how Datalink Telemetry works for Landspeeders and Whirlwinds.

3) Vengeful Strike. Coming back as a Special Rule for the Deathwing, it could have allowed our Deathwing to either get a boost in their charges after telerporting in, or maybe allowing them to fire their heavy weapons without penalty after teleporting in.

 

I feel this things would have been good with the fluff and the feeling of the army, and would have given us a better Deathwing to use, with more synergy between the DW and the RW.

 

Now, I do feel like people are being way too negative about the Deathwing. And of Terminators in general. They are good, and personally I have had quite a good result playing them. But, yeah, the DW clearly isn't meant to be played as a stand alone army. And this also goes with the lore of the chapter. After all, we are supposed to be a mixture of wings, not a single wing army.

 

In this sense, what I feel has never really been there is a synergy with the Greenwing, and that for me sucks. I have no suggestions here, which is why I can understand why this is. Coming up with ideas to combine the Green Wing with the other two companies, is hard.

 

In any case, if you want to look at good DW combinations with the new codex, Hunt the Fallen/Master of Maneuver, and Fortress of Shields, with the Knights, is a god one.

Combat squadding a 10 man terminator unit, to place 5 storm bolters and 2 cyclone missile launchers on one side, and 3 shields and maybe some lightning claws on the other is a great one! Expensive, sure, but if you are going deathwing you are usually going to be bringing at least 10 terminators, so no problem there. Use 2 CP to fire 10 storm bolters and 4 cyclone missile launchers in a single turn, then charge in the shields and claws squad, get them in combat.

[Trunkello]

Primary information on standards - we do not get anything that is not in the codex, and we have everything with the same wording as in codex.

 

No relic standard or anything.

 

Sorry if this disappoints.

Not a specific relic or somethign like that. Its a rule on the chapter ancient's datasheet. Just below the chapter banner rule. I saw it on striking scorpions video but it was too blurry. Somethign like the bonus shot that a fallen model gets on a 4+ is made on WS BS 2+?

[march10k]

In 7th, the complaint was that it was impossible to play "pure" deathwing.  So much whining about being forced to include some green or black minis (and generally, it was ravenwing that was included).  Now we're able to play "pure" deathwing again, and we're complaining that deathwing doesn't synergize as well with ravenwing any more.  That amuses me.

[Chmur]

 

Primary information on standards - we do not get anything that is not in the codex, and we have everything with the same wording as in codex.

 

No relic standard or anything.

 

Sorry if this disappoints.

Not a specific relic or somethign like that. Its a rule on the chapter ancient's datasheet. Just below the chapter banner rule. I saw it on striking scorpions video but it was too blurry. Somethign like the bonus shot that a fallen model gets on a 4+ is made on WS BS 2+?

 

 

Ah, that, yes. Having the book now in front of mr, yu are correct - valid for Infantry models within 6, this one grants them WS/BS 2+. Other standards don¨t have that modifier.

[Komodo]

Well, it was always quite tough to play Dark Angels, on the good thing -- i will expand my greenwing more, as I haven't being playing them properly for eternity.

 

Also, anyone thought of getting fortress of redemption + lots of green dudes? Anyone knows if they have updated the rules for FoR in Chapter Approved or codex?

Edited December 13, 2017 by Komodo

[Chmur]

Well, it was always quite tough to play Dark Angels, on the good thing -- i will expand my greenwing more, as I haven't being playing them properly for eternity.

 

Also, anyone thought of getting fortress of redemption + lots of green dudes? Anyone knows if they have updated the rules for FoR in Chapter Approved or codex?

 

I know!

 

Nope, neither in CA17 or Codex. Still noly Index version.

[Trunkello]

 

 

 

 

Primary information on standards - we do not get anything that is not in the codex, and we have everything with the same wording as in codex.

 

No relic standard or anything.

 

Sorry if this disappoints.

Not a specific relic or somethign like that. Its a rule on the chapter ancient's datasheet. Just below the chapter banner rule. I saw it on striking scorpions video but it was too blurry. Somethign like the bonus shot that a fallen model gets on a 4+ is made on WS BS 2+?

Ah, that, yes. Having the book now in front of mr, yu are correct - valid for Infantry models within 6, this one grants them WS/BS 2+. Other standards don¨t have that modifier.

Okay thanks for looking that up. So its just the regular ability only on ws bs 2+ and nothing like automatic last shot/attack? Still on 4+ do they gather their last strenght? Thx again.

[march10k]

 

Well, it was always quite tough to play Dark Angels, on the good thing -- i will expand my greenwing more, as I haven't being playing them properly for eternity.

 

Also, anyone thought of getting fortress of redemption + lots of green dudes? Anyone knows if they have updated the rules for FoR in Chapter Approved or codex?

 

I know!

 

Nope, neither in CA17 or Codex. Still noly Index version.

 

  This is a good thing.  That lascannon turret is insane!  I keep expecting it to get nerfed.  A FoR with max heavy bolters is a really great choice, IMHO.  Especially if you stash a lascannon dev squad in it.

[FerociousBeast]

Dark Angels are a chapter that really needs the sub-codex treatment that Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Militarum Tempestus, Skitarii, etc got over the past couple editions. The reality is that DA fans do want three fairly distinct things out of the same book, so even when a codex is itself "good", odds are good that at least 1/3 of its players will look at it and still feel shafted. A couple shorter "Codex Adeptus Astartes Deathwing" and "Ravenwing" books would be the best way of handling this issue. And, the optimist in me thinks that it's actually pretty likely to happen given GW's recent history with similar books, once they get thru the current project of updating all main armies.

[Berzul]

Dark Angels are a chapter that really needs the sub-codex treatment that Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Militarum Tempestus, Skitarii, etc got over the past couple editions. The reality is that DA fans do want three fairly distinct things out of the same book, so even when a codex is itself "good", odds are good that at least 1/3 of its players will look at it and still feel shafted. A couple shorter "Codex Adeptus Astartes Deathwing" and "Ravenwing" books would be the best way of handling this issue. And, the optimist in me thinks that it's actually pretty likely to happen given GW's recent history with similar books, once they get thru the current project of updating all main armies.

 

This might be the best way GW could go. Lore, game and sales-wise

[Zectz]

Primary information on standards - we do not get anything that is not in the codex, and we have everything with the same wording as in codex.

 

No relic standard or anything.

 

Sorry if this disappoints.

Frontline gaming review article says the DA chapter ancient is different in that it gives models a 2+ WS/BS when they fight/shoot again on a 4+ before dying.

Edit: Miss read

Edited December 14, 2017 by Zectz

[Trunkello]

 

Primary information on standards - we do not get anything that is not in the codex, and we have everything with the same wording as in codex.

 

No relic standard or anything.

 

Sorry if this disappoints.

Frontline gaming review article says the DA chapter ancient is different in that it gives models a 2+ WS/BS when they fight/shoot again on a 4+ before dying...

He already confirmed that. Too bad its just on 4+.

[Phoebus]

Dark Angels are a chapter that really needs the sub-codex treatment that Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Militarum Tempestus, Skitarii, etc got over the past couple editions. The reality is that DA fans do want three fairly distinct things out of the same book, so even when a codex is itself "good", odds are good that at least 1/3 of its players will look at it and still feel shafted. A couple shorter "Codex Adeptus Astartes Deathwing" and "Ravenwing" books would be the best way of handling this issue. And, the optimist in me thinks that it's actually pretty likely to happen given GW's recent history with similar books, once they get thru the current project of updating all main armies.

 

Nailed it. How this didn't happen in the last couple of editions, when we had Codices for individual Iron Hands Clans and a single Imperial Fists Company is beyond me.

[Brother Vod]

 

 

Primary information on standards - we do not get anything that is not in the codex, and we have everything with the same wording as in codex.

 

No relic standard or anything.

 

Sorry if this disappoints.

Frontline gaming review article says the DA chapter ancient is different in that it gives models a 2+ WS/BS when they fight/shoot again on a 4+ before dying...

He already confirmed that. Too bad its just on 4+.

 

Chapter Ancient has the Sacred Standard rule: DA Inf. models that are destroyed within 6" of a Chapter Ancient  and subsequently muster one last surge of strength before succumbing  to their wounds ( pass Astartes Banner ability) always resolve their final attack as if they had a BS and WS characteristic of 2+

[Interrogator Stobz]

 

 

Dark Angels are a chapter that really needs the sub-codex treatment that Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Militarum Tempestus, Skitarii, etc got over the past couple editions. The reality is that DA fans do want three fairly distinct things out of the same book, so even when a codex is itself "good", odds are good that at least 1/3 of its players will look at it and still feel shafted. A couple shorter "Codex Adeptus Astartes Deathwing" and "Ravenwing" books would be the best way of handling this issue. And, the optimist in me thinks that it's actually pretty likely to happen given GW's recent history with similar books, once they get thru the current project of updating all main armies.

Nailed it. How this didn't happen in the last couple of editions, when we had Codices for individual Iron Hands Clans and a single Imperial Fists Company is beyond me.

I am glad that they have done away with that approach, having a dex, an index, CA and FW index is enough for me at every game. I’d rather just take the dex and FW if possible.

 

So not too much disappointment here, there’s bound to be some but I am not lucky enough to have my copy yet