New Codex fluff - Blood Angels still making normal Marines

[Robbienw]

Well the new fluff in the BA codex confirms that the Blood Angels and their successors are in fact still producing normal Space Marines, alongside producing Primaris Marines.

 

Slightly contradictory to what was said in Devastation of Baal by the Blood Angels command, but i guess things changed soon after the book ended when baal was rebuilt. 

 

The relevant fluff:

 

page 23

 

'Hope from Horror

 

In the wake of Leviathan's defeat, the Blood Angels begin to rebuild.  Their gene-seed stocks are recalled, taking their rightful place beneath the rising arches of the restored Arx Angelicum.  The several thousand grizzled aspirants who survived the siege are all inducted, and those that endure are funnelled into the outsized Scout Companies authorised by Commander Dante for his Chapter and their successors.  The ranks are further bolstered by a huge influx of Primaris Space Marines from the Zar-Quaesitor or produced upon Baal itself using the newly installed mechanisms brought by Archmagos Cawl'

 

page 54-Scout squads

 

'As the embodied future of their Chapter, Blood Angels Scouts have never been more important than in this dark time.  By Commander Dante's decree their company has swollen to several times its original size, allowing the Blood Angels to field entire armies of these swift warriors'

 

 

Some other cool fluff i have noticed

 

- There were many badly wounded heroes from the leviathan invasion, as a result every single one of the Blood Angels Dreadnaught chassis is currently in use, for the first time in millennia.

 

- They have successfully maintained a number of contemptor dreadnoughts up to the current day.  The oldest of these  contain ancient brothers who fought at the battle of terra at the side of Sangunius!

[Father Mapple]

I like that they acknowledge how people play but give it great lore backgrounds, such as all scout troop armies and incorporating the other chassis of Dreadnought. Edited December 9, 2017 by Father Mapple

[Pendent]

There's no reason scouts can't go on to become primaris marines- the only difference between a scout and a normal marine is the addition of a few more organs.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

The several thousand grizzled aspirants who survived the siege are all inducted, and those that endure are funnelled into the outsized Scout Companies

What's the failure rate for Blood Angels gene-seed implants? Will these "several thousand" become several hundred, due to deaths from organ rejection? Or will the Blood Angels end up with a thousands-strong "Scout Company" that will have Guilliman accusing them of "Legion building"?

 

If the Blood Angels do end up with a thousand or more Scouts, what will be done with them? Just pass off the extras to their Successor Chapters? Declare, "We're going on a crusade, so we need these excess Marines to account for the expected casualty rate," like the Black Templars?

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

 

The several thousand grizzled aspirants who survived the siege are all inducted, and those that endure are funnelled into the outsized Scout Companies

What's the failure rate for Blood Angels gene-seed implants? Will these "several thousand" become several hundred, due to deaths from organ rejection? Or will the Blood Angels end up with a thousands-strong "Scout Company" that will have Guilliman accusing them of "Legion building"?

 

If the Blood Angels do end up with a thousand or more Scouts, what will be done with them? Just pass off the extras to their Successor Chapters? Declare, "We're going on a crusade, so we need these excess Marines to account for the expected casualty rate," like the Black Templars?

Failure rate is pretty low from past fluff. There is more risk that they make it out alive but hyper vampiric and have to be put down.

 

I would save sharing with the successors makes loads of sense and then restocking the companies from the ground up. So even if 1000 scouts are inducted in the BA 10th exclusively...that still only makes the BA 1300 strong roughly?

[Quixus]

- They have successfully maintained a number of contemptor dreadnoughts up to the current day.  The oldest of these  contain ancient brothers who fought at the battle of terra at the side of Sangunius!

Interesting, so Björn isn't special anymore.

 

 

The several thousand grizzled aspirants who survived the siege are all inducted, and those that endure are funnelled into the outsized Scout Companies

What's the failure rate for Blood Angels gene-seed implants? Will these "several thousand" become several hundred, due to deaths from organ rejection? Or will the Blood Angels end up with a thousands-strong "Scout Company" that will have Guilliman accusing them of "Legion building"?

 

If the Blood Angels do end up with a thousand or more Scouts, what will be done with them? Just pass off the extras to their Successor Chapters? Declare, "We're going on a crusade, so we need these excess Marines to account for the expected casualty rate," like the Black Templars?

Codex Shmodex. If Guilliman is fine with Cawl's heresy of improving the Emperor's design he can update his manual. The thousand marines restriction was a joke to begin with.

[Robbienw]

There's no reason scouts can't go on to become primaris marines- the only difference between a scout and a normal marine is the addition of a few more organs.

 

There are no Primaris Scouts, they don't start off as scouts like normal marines do. And the primaris specific organs go in early in the process, so no they couldn't go on to become one.  It also mentions in the codex specifically that they are making new scouts and new primaris marines as distinct things *at the same time*.  So no.

[Blindhamster]

The scouts are likely to be primaris that haven't had the black carapace yet. They get it at the end of the process too. And dantes decree in shield of Baal was to create new marines - these will be scouts before anything else.

[Robbienw]

 

The several thousand grizzled aspirants who survived the siege are all inducted, and those that endure are funnelled into the outsized Scout Companies

 

 

If the Blood Angels do end up with a thousand or more Scouts, what will be done with them? Just pass off the extras to their Successor Chapters? Declare, "We're going on a crusade, so we need these excess Marines to account for the expected casualty rate," like the Black Templars?

 

 

It specifically mentions they are for blood angels and successors scout companies

The scouts are likely to be primaris that haven't had the black carapace yet. They get it at the end of the process too. And dantes decree in shield of Baal was to create new marines - these will be scouts before anything else.

 

Nope.  It mentions they are being made as well as (at the same time as) Primaris marines.  

 

Scouts are a normal marine thing, there is no such thing as Primaris Scouts.

[Pendent]

I'm just saying that I think you guys are reading too far into something that isn't really clear as it's been stated repeatedly there's no reason to make the old marines when you can make Primaris.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

 

The several thousand grizzled aspirants who survived the siege are all inducted, and those that endure are funnelled into the outsized Scout Companies

If the Blood Angels do end up with a thousand or more Scouts, what will be done with them? Just pass off the extras to their Successor Chapters? Declare, "We're going on a crusade, so we need these excess Marines to account for the expected casualty rate," like the Black Templars?

It specifically mentions they are for blood angels and successors scout companies

The scouts are likely to be primaris that haven't had the black carapace yet. They get it at the end of the process too. And dantes decree in shield of Baal was to create new marines - these will be scouts before anything else.

Nope. It mentions they are being made as well as (at the same time as) Primaris marines.

 

Scouts are a normal marine thing, there is no such thing as Primaris Scouts.

Actually it's unclear one way or another on scouts, guy Haley said he was finding out as he needed to know for something. Before they get the carapace, they are no more capable of wearing power armour than any other marine - that much is clear.

 

However, it makes sense to say they're still making scouts because they're still producing the warriors currently.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Robbienw]

Except there are many potential reasons i can think of.  Perhaps their isn't enough Primaris gene seed produced in the imperium yet to replace all normal astartes?  Or perhaps their is enough resources to make primaris in addition to normal marines, so why not keep the normal marines as well.  Or the imperium needs to keep other marine equipment in service to keep winning wars, such as predators and land raider and terminators, and Primaris don't fit in it.

 

Regardless, the reasons are irrelevant.  The fact is the BA and successors are still making normal marines AND primaris at this point.

[Robbienw]

 

 

 

The several thousand grizzled aspirants who survived the siege are all inducted, and those that endure are funnelled into the outsized Scout Companies

If the Blood Angels do end up with a thousand or more Scouts, what will be done with them? Just pass off the extras to their Successor Chapters? Declare, "We're going on a crusade, so we need these excess Marines to account for the expected casualty rate," like the Black Templars?

It specifically mentions they are for blood angels and successors scout companies

The scouts are likely to be primaris that haven't had the black carapace yet. They get it at the end of the process too. And dantes decree in shield of Baal was to create new marines - these will be scouts before anything else.

Nope. It mentions they are being made as well as (at the same time as) Primaris marines.

 

Scouts are a normal marine thing, there is no such thing as Primaris Scouts.

Actually it's unclear one way or another on scouts, guy Haley said he was finding out as he needed to know for something. Before they get the carapace, they are no more capable of wearing power armour than any other marine - that much is clear.

 

However, it makes sense to say they're still making scouts because they're still producing the warriors currently.

 

 

So why would it mention new Scouts being made, then mention new primaris being made at the same time on Baal as well in addition to that?

 

There is no such thing as Primaris Scouts is why.

[Robbienw]

And lets not forget GW said in the Primaris FAQ on their website that Primaris are not replacements for regular marines, just reinforcements.  This seems to be in line with that.

[Frater Antodeniel]

I'm happy that GW gave liberty about the Primaris.

 

Personally, i can only accept the Primaris as an evolution of a confirmed Battle-brother. Primaris are to Battle-brothers, what Battle-brothers are to scouts.

 

Given the fact that the Primaris organs (most notably the Magnificat) enhances the Astartes others organs, i believe that before being upgrated to Primaris, a battle-brother must proove himself worthy of this new step, by mastering to their limits the organs that he was implanted with during his scout training.

 

Scouts (neophyte) => Battle-brother (Initiate) => 1st company Veteran (The veteran is given the possibility to become a Primaris).

 

In the end, it would means that all gene-seed would allow for a Primaris transformation, but the implantation of the Primaris organs should require oneself to proove worthy of thoses new "gifts".

[Crimson Ghost IX]

This is EXCELLENT news =)

[Blindhamster]

So why would it mention new Scouts being made, then mention new primaris being made at the same time on Baal as well in addition to that?

 

There is no such thing as Primaris Scouts is why.

When I asked Guy Haley, he wasn't sure.

 

I'm not surprised you'd jump on this as you're consistently anti primaris (Which is fine).

 

Considering we have very clear direction for dantes decree, it makes far more sense that primaris marines newly made on baal (The aspirants referenced in the first quote specifically become primaris in the novel) spend time as scouts before being awarded their black carapace just like any other blood angel.

 

That being said, it doesn't mean both couldn't be made, just doesn't read as definitive as you suggest. I admit to being biased, devastation of Baal was not remotely uncertain about the future of recruits for the blood angels.

[Pendent]

You're setting yourself up for disappointment. What you quote says that the Blood Angels are making a lot of Scouts- this is reasonable given that the chapter was almost wiped out. You're making a lot of assumptions about how Primaris are inducted into the chapter that we just do not know for certain to come to your conclusion.

 

Our fluff has talked forever about how the flaw is killing us off slowly but surely. Why would it make any sense when rebuilding the chapter to make more marines that are much more vulnerable to the flaw when you have the option to make some that are significantly more resistant?

[Jareddm]

I found a lore dump over on Reddit. Thought it'd be good to post here, but I would definitely like some independent confirmation from someone here before I put stock in it. Credit goes to dreadnautilus.

 

*Primaris Marines still feel the Red Thirst, although they appear to be naturally better at restraining it.

 

*Many of the Captains in the Chapter organization chart are different. The only ones have kept their position are Karlaen of the 1st, Aphael of the 2nd, Sendini of the 5th, Phaton of the 7th and Borgio of the 10th. So presumably half of the chapter's Captains died in the Devastation of Baal.

 

*The rebuilding efforts after the Devestation of Baal have caused the Scout Company to swell to an enormous size, having 457 unassigned neophytes.

 

*The Lamenters have survived their crusade against the Tyranids and have access to Primaris Marines. Their Chapter Master claims that their struggles have only made them stronger, but I think its an excuse to have 9/10ths of them killed off again in the future.

 

*A Tau colonization fleet "hurled across the void by an empyric convulsion" (Fourth Sphere Expansion I assume) begins colonizing the Red Scar, only to meet predictable resistance from the Blood Angels.

 

*Corbulo and the Sanguinary Priests have made a point of following the Primaris Marines, intruiged by their apparent resistance to the Flaw. However, an incident where Primaris Marines exercise extreme brutality in assaulting an Alpha Legion fortress has disturbed Corbulo, who has raised his concerns in a private audience with Dante.

 

*Apprentice Sanguinary Priests are introduced called Sanguinary Novitiates. They don't have the blood of Sanguinius in them nor do they have a Blood Chalice, so they are essentially just standard Apothecaries.

 

*The two Lieutenants in a Blood Angels company are known as the Warden of the Blood and the Sword of Sanguinius. While the Sword of Sanguinius is in charge of leading assaults, the Warden of the Blood are cool-headed individuals who are designated to take command of their Company if their Captain loses himself to the Red Thirst.

 

*The stripped-down power armor worn by Reivers is called MK X Phobos armor. I think in the Space Marine Codex it was called "MK X Reiver", but I'll accept this minor retcon if it gives us a more creative name.

 

*Despite their usefulness, many Blood Angels see the stealth and terror tactics of the Reivers as dishonorable.

 

*Hellblasters who have died overcharging their plasma guns have their names engraved on their weapons by Techmarines.

 

*Thanks to their casualties from the Devastation of Baal, the Blood Angels have occupants in all of their Dreadnought chassis for the first time in millennia.

 

*Since the Great Rift has made travel to Mars incredibly dangerous, Blood Angels Techmarines are now trained on the Forge World of Unverrdt IX in exchange for the Chapter's protection.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Jareddm

[Blindhamster]

I'm happy that GW gave liberty about the Primaris.

 

Personally, i can only accept the Primaris as an evolution of a confirmed Battle-brother. Primaris are to Battle-brothers, what Battle-brothers are to scouts.

 

Given the fact that the Primaris organs (most notably the Magnificat) enhances the Astartes others organs, i believe that before being upgrated to Primaris, a battle-brother must proove himself worthy of this new step, by mastering to their limits the organs that he was implanted with during his scout training.

 

Scouts (neophyte) => Battle-brother (Initiate) => 1st company Veteran (The veteran is given the possibility to become a Primaris).

 

In the end, it would means that all gene-seed would allow for a Primaris transformation, but the implantation of the Primaris organs should require oneself to proove worthy of thoses new "gifts".

Codex marines showed the order organs are implanted, which means your theory doesn't make sense, as two of the key primaris organs are implanted at the start. However, it could be cool

[Brother Crimson]

Its really like «  ok how do you player want to play »

Ryan: I like scout as super competitive cheap troops backed by massive gun line and small efficient melee assassins style squads.

 

John: I just finished my 2nd company sons of Sanguinius style painted, took me 3 years and I would like to play them you know.

 

Gab: Death company looking for blood is the only true thing.

 

Bob: MOAR DREADNOUGHTS!

 

« Ok guess that will cover our storyline for 8th, don’t forget to buy primaris units, have a nice day »

[Robbienw]

Well I am sure Guy Haley had the answer now ;)

 

If the Scouts were going to be Primaris it would have just said that. Not said also that new Primaris Marines were being produced at the same time. That's the key thing here. The two things are distinct. It would make no sense saying both were being made if they were ending up as the same them. I'm not assuming or concluding anything, just going on the facts as stated in the codex.

 

Bloods Angels are producing normal Marines and Primaris at the same time. Really simple, not sure why anyone would have a problem with this? GW said themselves Primaris are reinforcements, not replacement, so why the problem?

[Blindhamster]

Not so much a problem as a feeling that you're just reading too much into it.

 

Also, of course they won't say anything one way or another atm, there are no primaris aspirant models!

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

I'm happy that GW gave liberty about the Primaris.

 

Personally, i can only accept the Primaris as an evolution of a confirmed Battle-brother. Primaris are to Battle-brothers, what Battle-brothers are to scouts.

 

Given the fact that the Primaris organs (most notably the Magnificat) enhances the Astartes others organs, i believe that before being upgrated to Primaris, a battle-brother must proove himself worthy of this new step, by mastering to their limits the organs that he was implanted with during his scout training.

 

Scouts (neophyte) => Battle-brother (Initiate) => 1st company Veteran (The veteran is given the possibility to become a Primaris).

 

In the end, it would means that all gene-seed would allow for a Primaris transformation, but the implantation of the Primaris organs should require oneself to proove worthy of thoses new "gifts".

Codex marines showed the order organs are implanted, which means your theory doesn't make sense, as two of the key primaris organs are implanted at the start. However, it could be cool

 

 

In fact while reading your previous post, i just opened my eyes upon something obvious yet shrouded to me. Since the beginings, i believed that Primaris were transformed from recruit to battle-brother in a one straight line. Yet, while you point the subject of the Black Carapace, i can now imagine that Primaris, before being implanted with the Black Carapace must prooves themselves as Scouts. (A welcome theory, since it would allow for new/future plastic scouts...).

 

I don't remember the order showed in the Codex Astartes, yet if, for Primaris, the Black Carapace is the last organ to be implanted, it would be a very good thing.

 

If indeed the Black Carapace is last, then you making a point force me to change my point of view upon my vision of the Primaris. (Yet, i still dislike Primaris range, most notably for the lack of options. Intercessors and Apothecary are the only primaris i like, but Intercessors lack of options. Plus Primaris range lack of Chainsword.)

 

Also, it does not invalidate the possibility that a Classic Astartes may be implanted with Primaris organs, in the waiting that GW clear this particular point about the possibility or the impossibility for a Classic Astartes to become a Primaris during what would be a "2nd transformation process".

Edited December 9, 2017 by Frater Antodeniel

[Arkangilos]

So a couple things:

 

One, BA don't get their implants like codex chapters. Remember, they get ALL implants minus the Black Carapace at the same time (over the course of one year as opposed to a decade like codex scouts).

 

Two: they did make a distinction between scouts and making Primaris. The codex, as per posted fluff, does say they are making scouts AND Primaris. Since all implants are done at once for BA, a distinction would be pointless.