New Codex fluff - Blood Angels still making normal Marines

[brother_b]

Great! Fluff to have mixed armies of primaris/legacy marines.

[Robbienw]

Except it most definetly does say something one way or the other lol. The language is unequivocal, they are making new Scouts and they are making new Primaris Marines at the same.

 

It's a very good codex fluffwise in my opinion.

 

A few more interesting things, the BA seem to be a bit low in capital ships (2 battlebarges and 5 strike cruisers only) and they must have lost the battlebarge Bloodcaller at some point as they now have the blade of vengeance and the Baals Fury as their listed battle barges.

 

Also, the captains and fleet commander killed in Devastation of Baal are all out and have been replaced with new names. The only different one is the senior sanguinary guard. I guess the lone survivor in devastation of Baal died afterwards.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Robbienw

[Frater Antodeniel]

So a couple things:

 

One, BA don't get their implants like codex chapters. Remember, they get ALL implants minus the Black Carapace at the same time (over the course of one year as opposed to a decade like codex scouts).

 

Two: they did make a distinction between scouts and making Primaris. The codex, as per posted fluff, does say they are making scouts AND Primaris. Since all implants are done at once for BA, a distinction would be pointless.

 

Point one : Yes, but the point, was that i imagined that Primaris were implanted with all implants (Black Carapace included). Which would have made the idea of scout pointless/inexistant. (I "remember" reading somewhere that now all Chapters, due to Cawl new processes, benefited from a transformation akin to that of the Blood Angels.)

 

Point two : In fact, if both Classic and Primaris are implanted with all their organs minus the Black Carapace (so 18 for the firsts and 21 for the second), they would still both require the Black Carapace implants. So both group would undergo a Scouts and Primaris Scouts training before being implanted with the Black Carapace, so there would be a distinction.

[Arkangilos]

Except that there wouldn't be because it would be a given that scouts were being made as Primaris. The only reason you make a distinction if they all follow the same procress where you say "and" is when both marines are still being created.

 

Also, Primaris scouts would still have higher stats than a normal one because their implants would make them stronger than a normal one.

I think Primaris follow Legion induction, as in they go straight to marines, like the GC era legions did. Regardless, it is clear to me that both are being made.

[Blindhamster]

Blood Angels don't have their black carapace after being made, they earn it in the scout companies.

 

The difference is that they are made (all organs except the black carapace) in a year rather than over the course of 4 or 5.

 

Based on the info we have on primaris being made, we know it's fast (apparently almost the same process as the blood angels have always done) but we don't know if they somehow include the black carapace as well or not.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Arkangilos]

We know that. But they have every single organ except for the black carapace implanted before becoming scouts. So if that was the case there would be a difference between the two scouts, and it would not say that they are ALSO creating new Primaris marines. Edited December 9, 2017 by Arkangilos

[Frater Antodeniel]

Except that there wouldn't be because it would be a given that scouts were being made as Primaris. The only reason you make a distinction if they all follow the same procress where you say "and" is when both marines are still being created.

 

Also, Primaris scouts would still have higher stats than a normal one because their implants would make them stronger than a normal one.

I think Primaris follow Legion induction, as in they go straight to marines, like the GC era legions did. Regardless, it is clear to me that both are being made.

 

I think that i will re-read the Primaris stuff of the Space Marine codex, and the new Blood Angels fluff of the new codex.

 

Personally, the Primaris stuff is complicated, also i think that for Astartes, i will stay in the 40k era^^, with a Hive Fleet Kraken army for the 41k era^^. =)

[Arkangilos]

Here is the fluff piece posted for emphasis

 

"The ranks are *further* bolstered by a huge influx of Primaris Space Marines from the Zar-Quaesitor or *produced* upon Baal itself using the newly installed mechanisms brought by Archmagos Cawl'"

 

FURTHER bolstered by... Primaris... PRODUCED on Baal are the key words.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Arkangilos

[Blindhamster]

Still doesn't mean primaris don't also serve as scouts.

 

The codex also directly contradicts the novel in that it's specifically the survivors of the defense that are made into primaris in the novel, whereas they become regular marines in the codex. Which is fine, codex supersedes novel, just odd seeing as GW proper were the ones to commission the novel.

 

 

Oh and there aren't different stats for primaris neophytes because there aren't models, they also won't get directly referenced in fluff till there are models now either it seems. Of course, it's also possible that they get the black carapace immediately and do indeed go straight to battle brother status!

 

I guess my issue is they do this fantastic job of setting the scene for the chapter in the novel then contradict it a couple of weeks later.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Robbienw]

Probably they changed their minds on the whole issue during the production of the Primaris. Perhaps guy haley got the brief and did the novel a while back and handed it in, they kept it to release near the ba codex release date and changed their minds a bit along the way whilst finishing the codex.

[Blindhamster]

Presumably.

 

I still believe we will see primaris neophytes in some form eventually though - purely because it makes sense (nothing says they get the black carapace any quicker), but I concede that the codex does stipulate both kinds are being made.

 

I guess the other possibility is that some event *after* devastation of Baal happens results in more marines being built instead of primaris.

 

What's interesting is how they explain the huge numbers of regular marines, with primaris it'd be easy as it's already stated that an aspirant that wouldn't be able to be made into a marine can still often be made into a primaris.

 

Still, just means if they release not crap scout models I'll get some!

Edited December 9, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Arkangilos]

I mean it's possible both the codex and the novel are correct. The codex says some become Primaris, which follows the novel (I presume? I'm in the process of deploying so I haven't been able to read it).

 

I just think that right now, Primaris follow the legion tactics and set up, so I can believe that they are also inducted the same (they didn't form scouts didn't the GC from recruits). So I think what is likely is that some are chosen to follow the normal path and become scouts -> regular battle brothers, and some are sling shotted into Primaris to give them fully capable warriors. From the picture I saw of the battleline troops, it said that Primaris Intercessors are kept in strategic reserves to be applied where most needed. So regular tactical and battle brothers that have more flexibility hit first, with Primaris brought up where needed. Primaris skipping the Scout phase gives them instant power armored troops while the traditional ones developed normally as scouts. This maintains the most flexibility.

[Blindhamster]

The novel has Dante outright say all future recruits will be made as primaris space marines.

 

It also has the chapter command stand atop the remains of the fortress monastery talking about it being the end of an era, that they are a dying breed and the primaris will be the inheritors of the chapter.

 

So, no room for both to be correct. But room for something to happen in the 46 years between where the decision is changed!

Edited December 9, 2017 by Blindhamster

[deathspectersgt7]

Thanks for the heads up @Robbienw. Now I can field Charnel Guard Primaris shields with my Regulars .

[Pendent]

Again, if your chapter has been slowly dying for centuries due to the flaw and you have the option to make a new kind of marine that doesn't seem to have the same issues (or at least not on the same scale) why would you possibly choose to make the old kind? Even if it's significantly slower to make Primaris marines it's still an obvious choice.

[Blindhamster]

If they had has the creation of "normal" marines tied to the incident with super brutal primaris that corbulo is worried about it would have been a nicely slotted in thing.

[Arkangilos]

Again, if your chapter has been slowly dying for centuries due to the flaw and you have the option to make a new kind of marine that doesn't seem to have the same issues (or at least not on the same scale) why would you possibly choose to make the old kind? Even if it's significantly slower to make Primaris marines it's still an obvious choice.

Because it clearly didn't work as they had hoped, as shown by the fact that Corbulo was disturbed by what he found.

 

@Blind Hamster- I mean he could have changed his mind after they rebuilt it. I've had company commanders say something one moment, and them implement something totally different after going back inside. Again I haven't read it though.

[Panzer]

Well maybe the Scouts are just a temporary solution they run parallel to the Primaris while their forces are so depleted and with the Chaos and Tyranid thread so close (Leviathan is scattered, not annihilated after all).

So once things stabilized a bit they could still follow Dantes original plan (assuming both things are canon) and switch to full Primaris.

[Blindhamster]

i actually suspect that the change may be related to the push back against primaris in general.

They wont abandon the concept because they've clearly put a lot of money into it, however I could easily see them scaling back how far primaris goes compared to what they might have originally planned.

I feel like for every person that likes them, there are about 5 that dislike them, and probably only a fraction of the people that like them actually love them, whereas a larger % of people that dislike them hate them. Just a gut feel from the reactions I see online about them and from chatting to people at gaming clubs.

[Blindhamster]

For me personally, I like the Primaris, I've enjoyed their (limited) depiction in novels so far, and find their background interesting, particularly for blood angels as it adds a new facet to us. I think it will be good to  mix things up a bit and see something new and different happen for the chapter.

I feel the models are miles better than "regular" marines and despite owning literally hundreds of said "regular" marines, I can't bring myself to go back to building or painting them.

 

Rule wise, I really like them, the only thing(s) I'd like to see are more options on characters of all kinds (including sergeants), plus some more unit types to flesh it out some more.

I do think we'll see more primaris units, both of a generic variety that all marines get (I believe there will be some form of close combat unit, and probably some kind of veteran unit), but also of a chapter specific variety (I think we'll see a death company equivalent and maybe something else). I Think that the first "new" primaris unit we see will come alongside the wolves, and I feel like it may well be specific to them, due to how far they diverge from the codex.

 

The fact nobody has had any new model support for "regular" marines is still telling, and I don't believe we'll see any new things that aren't primaris for a while at least. But I also don't think "regular" marines will be phased out completely.

 

Having read the codex now, I don't believe all the "unassigned neophytes" are scouts, because there is no indicator anywhere else for primaris marines that are undergoing training still. Pure conjecture of course, but there's nothing so far to say that primaris marines suddenly appear as fully trained soldiers, as such I'd expect they still get trained in 10th company, even if it's not as scouts and is training for the role of intercessor straight away (assuming they have black carapace immediately or are trained without the armour they will wear when the go into active duty)

Edited December 10, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Arkangilos]

Literally the only two things I don't like about them is actual cost and the whole unit weaponry. I don't like it when everyone in the squad has the same weapon (and I love the modularity of normal marines). A big part of that is that I'm actually an infantryman, and we have different weapon systems in every fire team in order to be flexible. We have a rifleman, a team leader, an automatic rifleman, and a grenadier.

 

While the tactical squad isn't that flexible, I can at least have a support by fire team (combat squad) with a heavy weapon, and an assault team (combat squad) with a special weapon. I can't do that with Primaris, which is the sole gameplay/lore reason I don't like them.

 

It's also something that doesn't make sense to me in the HH.

[Panzer]

The only thing I really don't like about Primaris is the lack of options on characters and the lack of Jump Pack melee units. That's all, really.

I like the fact that the whole unit has special weapons (or not). Imo the best kind of units are the oney where you can give every single model a unique loadout (simply because it's cool really^^) followed by units with all the same loadout and dead last units with only one or two interesting loadouts and the rest of it having to carry around boring basic weaponry. I want to either have my unit super specialised or everyone being unique and important in their own way and not feeling like I'm carrying around a bunch of dead weight just waiting to get killed so the only important guy in the squad can keep doing his job. This is not about what's competetively good but rather what I enjoy having on the table from a narrative view of point.

The classic Tactical loadout option was one of the things I really disliked when I strated with Blood Angels back then and the extremely variable loadout options I had on T'au Crisis was what I enjoyed the most about playing T'au after I switched to them.
And I really like their cost since I always wanted a more elite army without restricting myself to the actually expensive units instead of being able to just take any unit I want. I'd be fine with them being even more expensive actually. As long as they are worth their points.

 

So yeah. More loadout options for characters and more different units please! ^^

[Indefragable]

I have to say, I don’t like that there are “Contemptors old enough to have fought beside Sanguinius.” What a :cuss -ing cop-out.

 

1. If takes Bjorn of the Space Wolves down a notch. That was his whole shtick. Like saying “oh by the way, the Ceeatial Bulldogs Chapter Master has been 1600 years!” Takes away a bit from what makes Dante something speciL.

 

2. Why haven’t we been able to use Contemptors until now, then? Oh that’s right, b/c now they’ve finally decided to let us use them and turn a profit <eye roll>.

 

Carry on.

[Arkangilos]

I have to say, I don’t like that there are “Contemptors old enough to have fought beside Sanguinius.” What a :cuss -ing cop-out.

 

1. If takes Bjorn of the Space Wolves down a notch. That was his whole shtick. Like saying “oh by the way, the Ceeatial Bulldogs Chapter Master has been 1600 years!” Takes away a bit from what makes Dante something speciL.

 

2. Why haven’t we been able to use Contemptors until now, then? Oh that’s right, b/c now they’ve finally decided to let us use them and turn a profit <eye roll>.

 

Carry on.

Are you serious? Fluff has always said that some of the dreadnaughts are from the Heresy. That's why I've never understood why Bjorn was so special. Did you get mad when reading the night lords trilogy when one of the Night Lord dreadnaughts fought a BA dreadnaught and it was talking about how they both fought each other on the walls of Terra as mortal marines?

 

And just because in the rules we haven't had them doesn't mean in the fluff we haven't. Are you really complaining that they are fixing it? Holy :cuss.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Arkangilos

[Jolemai]

Fluff is one of those things that will never please everyone; there will always be things we don't know about hidden away in the depths of Baal.

 

At least we didn't have to resort to Centurions!