Will every 30k legion get unique 2W Terminators?

[Mazryonh]

Not only are the unique models for units like the Death Guard's Deathshroud, the Sons of Horus' Justaerin, and the World Eaters' Red Butchers nice to look at and fun to use ingame, they're also 2W unique terminators for their parent legions. The thing is, we still have yet to see rules or models for units that could fit this archetype for some of the other legions, such as the Dark Angels' Deathwing, the White Scars' Keshig, and the Night Lords' Atramentar Terminators. 

 

Has anyone been able to ask the FW team about this? The fact that we can run entire units of these guys in certain 30k lists while still remaining Battle-Forged looks like one of the unique parts of 30k to me. 

[Kizzdougs]

There are plenty of elite Terminator units (Phoenix Guard, Varagyr, Gorgons, Grave Wardens, Tyrants, Fulmentarus, and Lernaens) that only have one wound, so I'd be surprised if every new Legion specific Terminator unit had two. It would be nice if some of the above listed Terminators were updated to have two wounds (or even better just give all Terminators two wounds).

 

Personally I'd give the Phoenix Guard, Varagyr, and Lernaens two wounds each. These units are the elite warriors of their Legions. The Gorgons, Grave Wardens, Tyrants and Fulmentarus are special because of their equipment and battlefield roles, not because they are the very best warriors of their Legions, so they could stay with a single wound.

 

I'd like Deathwing, Keshig and Atramentar to all have two wounds, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of them only have one.

[Charlo]

It's good they have different stats. It keeps things varied.

 

The only issue is when you have things like the SW Terminators that are a touch overcosted but only 1W.

[Brofist]

I've heard this one before, but it's a fan theory as far as I can tell. FW has never said all legions would get 2W terminators and there isn't any precedence since we have 1W and 2W terminators depending on the legion.

[jeremy1391]

If 30k updates to 8th edition I could see it.

[Spiritual Liege]

If 30k updates to 8th edition I could see it.

Yeah but if they do everything else will be changing too so let's not go down that path now.

[Gorgoff]

I hope that they won't all get 2w because it would marginalise regular Terminators even more.

[bluntblade]

It'd be fluffier for the Keshig to be fast and so more damage than typical Terminators rather than soaking up more damage, wouldn't it?

[Zeratil]

I hope that they won't all get 2w because it would marginalise regular Terminators even more.

  I think normal terminators are overshadowed regardless a lot of the time, they're just a little over costed for what they bring to the table. The exceptions tend to be so because of legion specific rules or wargear (IF termies are very good). I'm just never sure what normal termies are supposed to do. Removing deep strike from them fits 30k generally, but they don't have anything to replace it with. Personally I'd give them the support squad treatment and allow them all to have heavy weapons. Turn them into a more expensive, more mobile and tougher HS squad.

 

  I think 2w termies are best saved to be an option for unique termies rather than mandatory. Two wounds is good, but it's not double the survivability especially in CC where there are lots of s8 attacks, force weapons etc. Weaknesses with legion terminators tends to be the price point rather than them lacking wounds. I'd argue that in some circumstances increasing wounds would be bad for the unit, Siege Tyrants as an example because it would turn an already pricey (but still good) unit into something likely unaffordable for most points levels.

[Gorgoff]

 

 

I hope that they won't all get 2w because it would marginalise regular Terminators even more.

I think normal terminators are overshadowed regardless a lot of the time, they're just a little over costed for what they bring to the table. The exceptions tend to be so because of legion specific rules or wargear (IF termies are very good). I'm just never sure what normal termies are supposed to do.

I like them in ZM which really fits their fluff.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I prefer normal Terminators over the Vlka Fenryka Varagyr. Those dude are way overpriced for what they bring to the table

[Mazryonh]

There are plenty of elite Terminator units (Phoenix Guard, Varagyr, Gorgons, Grave Wardens, Tyrants, Fulmentarus, and Lernaens) that only have one wound, so I'd be surprised if every new Legion specific Terminator unit had two. It would be nice if some of the above listed Terminators were updated to have two wounds (or even better just give all Terminators two wounds).

 

Personally I'd give the Phoenix Guard, Varagyr, and Lernaens two wounds each. These units are the elite warriors of their Legions. The Gorgons, Grave Wardens, Tyrants and Fulmentarus are special because of their equipment and battlefield roles, not because they are the very best warriors of their Legions, so they could stay with a single wound.

 

I'd like Deathwing, Keshig and Atramentar to all have two wounds, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of them only have one.

 

It would be a nice nod to 8th edition if all HH Terminators in general got at least two wounds. They are, to a man, supposed to be a Veteran's Veteran, which makes for some strange disconnects in the fluff/mechanics:

 

• Tyrant Siege Terminators are guys who have been through more meatgrinder battles than most other legions' soldiers would ever dream of being in. These are guys who are supposed to have been bowled over by artillery shells and found it within themselves to stand back up and keep advancing forward before they earned the right to wear Terminator armour, but the Tyrants still have only one wound in the rules. 
• Phoenix Guard Terminators, who are horrendously one-dimensional and don't have much utility beyond infantry-killing on the charge and their "cheerleading" ability. A few other Legion-specific terminators have the ability to take Meltabombs, but not the Phoenix Guard, who despite their name don't even have the ability to get back up after taking a wound (maybe changing their stats to have two wounds and meltabombs would work). 

I would agree with giving Lernaens and Varagyr Terminators two wounds each. The Lernaens already have access to AL-specific advantages such as the ability to take Conversion Beamers and Power Daggers, and of course the ability to use the AL's Mutable Tactics to make them stand out amongst the legion-specific Terminators, but 2W would suit their Elite-of-The-Elite status better. 

 

I hope that they won't all get 2w because it would marginalise regular Terminators even more.

 

Certain regular terminators in the HH era actually have some nice tricks up their sleeves, such as the Imperial Fists' regular Terminators having access to equipment like Storm Shields and Assault Cannons that most other Legions' Terminators can't have. The Alpha Legion's and Thousand Sons' regular Terminators can even bring specialty ammo for their Combi-Bolters that can substantially increase their MEQ killing power too. But otherwise, you're right; vanilla terminators in the HH can sometimes struggle to make back their points.

 

I prefer normal Terminators over the Vlka Fenryka Varagyr. Those dude are way overpriced for what they bring to the table

 

FW has rebalanced unique terminators before, so there's a chance of Varagyr being made more viable. The SoH's unique Justaerin Terminators used to be severely overcosted and had a starting squad size of only three models. Then they got a price reduction and the ability to take up to a maximum of 12 models in a squad (though I think that's a typo, since the original squad model count maxed out at 10 from taking 7 additional models, and the revised version makes the minimum squad size 5 models while not changing the maximum number of additional models you can take). 

 

So aside from the aforementioned Deathwing, Keshig, and Atramentar, what other legion-specific Terminators are we missing models and/or rules for? I can think of these off the top of my head: 

 

• Devourers (World Eaters): We already have the Red Butchers that have 2W, but I think the Devourers would be a nice, saner variant with better access to more varied weaponry. 
• Morlocks (Iron Hands): The Gorgon Terminators are nice, but we still don't have rules for the Morlocks who were Ferrus Manus' Honour Guard. I'm thinking they were the result of his attempts to optimize Cataphractii armour (whereas the Gorgon Terminators wear customized Indomitus armour). 
• Blood Angels Unique Terminators: There's few things the Blood Angels love so much as attacking while wearing Jump Packs, which Terminators can't use, but even they must have seen the usefulness of an Elite Terminator unit of their own. 
• Imperial Fists Unique Terminators: We already have the Templar Brethren, but I'm looking for a Terminator unit that might be led around by a Terminator-armoured Sigismund or Alexis Polux that could have 2W as well. 
• Raven Guard Unique Terminators: The AL have proven that infiltrating Terminators is in fact possible. Maybe the Raven Guard could also do something similar with their own unique loadout.
• Word Bearers Unique Terminators: The Gal Vorbak (the units currently fulfilling the role of "legion-specific 2W elite infantry unit")  were at best a happy accident in the fluff and could not be replenished once lost (look at how 40k's Possessed Marines don't match up to the Gal Vorbak's abilities).  The WBs should at least have had legion-specific Terminators of their own as well, like many of the other legions did during the Great Crusade, before the Gal Vorbak arose. 

[Anvilarium]

Regarding the Morlocks - we won't be getting models for them. When the Gorgons were first announced at the Heresy Weekender 2013, the late Alan Bligh said that all Morlocks were Gorgons (but conversely, not all Gorgons were Morlocks). So therefore we already have models for the Morlocks - The Gorgons.

[Zeratil]

I don't really agree with the idea of giving every legion a unique terminator unit, especially where that role is filled by another unique unit or doesn't appear to fit the lore that well. I wouldn't be against making every terminator 2w and the hardier ones 3w though - exactly what the dakka/heresy 8th ed LA list does in fact. I'd also be in favour of giving normal terminator units something akin to Veteran tactics as I think that gives lots of options for representing various Heresy formations like the Devourers. There's limited space for unique legion units and I don't really like the idea that one of those slots has to be taken by a terminator unit. I think there's more scope for giving the legions a little something unique like a weapon or a unique row that emphasises their use.

By the time of the Heresy are Devourers really a special terminator unit given the disdain that Angron, Khârn and others show them? I much prefer the idea of the Red Butchers as a unit. At best by the heresy they might be WS5 normal termies.

Morlocks - I recall this being mentioned as well Urza.

Blood Angels - Maybe? I can't recall any mentions of terminator elites, and I would rather see more unique units for them. I think they might have similar issues to the IF.

Imperial Fists - In my mind the IF don't have an elite terminator unit because the elite fighters of the legion are drafted into the Templars*. Of course they also have one of the coolest looking terminator units in the game because those storm shields are boss.


Raven Guard - Not really their style I don't think. Or rather I feel their use of terminators (aka Deliverers) is better represented by a RoW or even better something akin to an 8th ed stratagem rather than a unique unit.

Word Bearers - as mentioned ofc the Gal Vorbak fill the elite heavy infantry role (and very well too) so they don't really need an elite terminator unit. It would be good if their terminator squads had a unique option though, maybe some sort of unique flamer weapon which WB conspicuously lack.




*Much as the best fighters in the TS seem to be in the Khenetai.

 

[Calas Typhon]

Imperial Fists had the Huscarls, the elite bodyguard of Rogal Dorn who the majority wore Terminator armour.

I can expect them to be the best of the best in some cases within the Legion as with most Terminator bodyguard companies. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by Warsmith Kroeger

[Zeratil]

I had in fact forgotten about them, there's some potential there of doing something cool with an anglo-saxon/Dane axe/Battle of Hastings angle.

[Luna707]

I don't think every legion needs 2W terminators as that would reduce the unique nature of each legion. I do think they should receive more unique rules however to further differentiate them from other elite units. For instance, I would keep Gorgons at 1W a piece but add a reanimation rule which allows each fallen member to return on a 5+ on the turn they die regardless of the strength of the weaponry. That would reflect the lore of their unique armor while adding an interesting game mechanic that differs from the other legion specific terminators. I also think adding a form of veteran tactics to normal legion terminator squads would be a really cool addition 

[Mazryonh]

Regarding the Morlocks - we won't be getting models for them. When the Gorgons were first announced at the Heresy Weekender 2013, the late Alan Bligh said that all Morlocks were Gorgons (but conversely, not all Gorgons were Morlocks). So therefore we already have models for the Morlocks - The Gorgons.

 

Not to disparage the late great Alan Bligh, but for Morlocks, Ferrus Manus' terminator bodyguard, to be stuck wearing only Gorgon suits seems a bit of a letdown to me. The Morlocks are supposed to be the very best of his legion, but they don't get the privilege of unique gear and abilities. Ferrus Manus always struck me as someone who would storm off to his workshop (after chewing out his troops) after a less-than-satisfactory battle and build better stuff for his men. 

 

I don't really agree with the idea of giving every legion a unique terminator unit, especially where that role is filled by another unique unit or doesn't appear to fit the lore that well.

 

By the time of the Heresy are Devourers really a special terminator unit given the disdain that Angron, Khârn and others show them? I much prefer the idea of the Red Butchers as a unit. At best by the heresy they might be WS5 normal termies.

 

Morlocks - I recall this being mentioned as well Urza.

 

Blood Angels - Maybe? I can't recall any mentions of terminator elites, and I would rather see more unique units for them. I think they might have similar issues to the IF.

 

Raven Guard - Not really their style I don't think. Or rather I feel their use of terminators (aka Deliverers) is better represented by a RoW or even better something akin to an 8th ed stratagem rather than a unique unit.

 

Word Bearers - as mentioned ofc the Gal Vorbak fill the elite heavy infantry role (and very well too) so they don't really need an elite terminator unit. It would be good if their terminator squads had a unique option though, maybe some sort of unique flamer weapon which WB conspicuously lack.

 

Every legion was originally raised from Terra, and then eventually supplied with vehicles and war materiel from Mars. To make logistics and strategic organization easier prior to the rediscovery of the Primarchs, it was clear that the Emperor had standardized the original legions to a large degree. This makes it likely that establishing and maintaining an Elite Terminator bodyguard unit was the standard throughout the legions before the Primarchs returned, even if certain Primarchs de-emphasized that unit later. 

 

For the World Eaters, the Devourers likely still had their own martial pride and history of service with their legion and would persist in their own martial endeavours, even if their broken Primarch wanted nothing to do with them. In game, this might mean that they can't accompany Angron but may accompany any non-unique WE character, but would have more tactical options open to them rather than just bumrushing everything they see like Khârn and the Red Butchers.

 

For the Blood Angels, even they had a pragmatic side. Weren't they the first Legion-descended chapter to use Terminator armour in the original Space Hulk boardgame? For reasons I've outlined above, the Terran-raised Blood Angels likely had their own elite terminators, and I doubt that Sanguinius would have disbanded them. It's likelier he simply deployed them when the situation called for it, such as cityfighting or close-quarters battle like in, well, Space Hulks and similar environments. 

 

For the Raven Guard, I'm looking forward to the Deliverers too. Giving them access to teleportation transponders no matter the RoW being used sounds like the minimum they would need. Hit and Run would also be nice. There's plenty of ways they can fit the Raven Guard's theme even without access to Jump Packs or stealth abilities (such as the Alpha Legion's own Terminators). 

 

The Word Bearers apparent overreliance on the Gal Vorbak (which as I outlined earlier, were both irreplaceable and irreplicable) isn't very logical. It's likely they had an Elite Terminator unit as per legion standardization before the Gal Vorbak ever arrived on the scene, and they could replace members of that unit unlike the Gal Vorbak. I'd like a unique weapon option for those elite termies too, maybe something like proto-daemon weapons or a unique table to roll on for Dark Channeling. 

 

Imperial Fists had the Huscarls, the elite bodyguard of Rogal Dorn who the majority wore Terminator armour.

 

I can expect them to be the best of the best in some cases within the Legion as with most Terminator bodyguard companies. 

 

Thanks for the reminder. If FW ever makes Huscarl models we need rules for a squad leader model based on Archamus from the Praetorian of Dorn novel. 

 

I don't think every legion needs 2W terminators as that would reduce the unique nature of each legion. I do think they should receive more unique rules however to further differentiate them from other elite units. For instance, I would keep Gorgons at 1W a piece but add a reanimation rule which allows each fallen member to return on a 5+ on the turn they die regardless of the strength of the weaponry. That would reflect the lore of their unique armor while adding an interesting game mechanic that differs from the other legion specific terminators. I also think adding a form of veteran tactics to normal legion terminator squads would be a really cool addition

 

Sounds like you're thinking the Gorgons should eventually get access to the Keys of Hel. Could be the whole basis for a "last ditch" RoW for the Iron Hands, if FW are going to let them go that far. 

 

I hope Malevolence does at least give vanilla termies 2Ws to start or 3W for Elite Terminators while providing a minor cost reduction for the former.

[bluntblade]

I figured there'll later be some kind of Keys related RoW

[rendingon1+]

I think all legion specific terminators should be 2W. Because - why the hell not. There's really no fluff argument why SoH, TS or DG specific termies should have double W and Lerneans, Phoenixes or Varangyr shouldn't. 2W for CC termies at least.

 

Also, why people think that every named unit mentioned in the book must have tabletop representation? I don't get it why Huscarls should have rules - I read the book as well and aside form being (mentioned as) Dorn's bodyguard they did nothing that would mark them as special. You can represent them with normal terminators or command squad. Same with Archamus - neither great warrior or general in the book. I See no reason why he should have any rules, especially when more interesting chatacters such as Rann or Katafalque have none.

Edited February 17, 2018 by rendingon1+

[Gorgoff]

I think all legion specific terminators should be 2W. Because - why the hell not. There's really no fluff argument why SoH, TS or DG specific termies should have double W and Lerneans, Phoenixes or Varangyr shouldn't. 2W for CC termies at least.

 

Also, why people think that every named unit mentioned in the book must have tabletop representation? I don't get it why Huscarls should have rules - I read the book as well and aside form being (mentioned as) Dorn's bodyguard they did nothing that would mark them as special. You can represent them with normal terminators or command squad. Same with Archamus - neither great warrior or general in the book. I See no reason why he should have any rules, especially when more interesting chatacters such as Rann or Katafalque have none.

I second that and may add:

If every shmock gets rules I want rules for Iron Warriors Rhinos who can form a makeshift fortification. ;)

[Indefragable]

Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but I can’t remember a single mention of a single Blood Angel Terminator ever in any HH material*.

 

I mean, yes, I am sure they had them as @Mazyronh says, there is a practical side there. I just don’t see them as being unique in any way other than BA who wear terminator armor. I mean, maybe they get cool 30k models, but I wouldn’t guess...or even necessarily want...them to have anything special beyond being BA.

 

The Sanguinary Guard will undoubtedly be one of if not “the” special unit for the IX Legion in Malevolence, partially because they are the obligatory bodyguard unit, partially because they are the handpicked Elite-of-the-Elite (in both 30k and 40k), and certainly because they are just too cool.

 

 

 

*havent read everything, but a good chunk

[Charlo]

Still think having 1W is fine on some units. Everything just needs to be appropriately costed.

 

Sehkmet higher and Varagyr lower, for example.

[SickSix]

Do Deathwing exist in 30k?

 

Also why should White Scars get 2W terminators? If anything they should a variation of Tartaros that gets high initiative and movement or something. Every legion shouldn't get the same thing with a different skin.

Edited February 17, 2018 by SickSix

[Gorgoff]

Still think having 1W is fine on some units. Everything just needs to be appropriately costed.

 

Sehkmet higher and Varagyr lower, for example.

I second that.

My Tyrants are just fine with one wound and I don't see why they should have two and I believe there are already too many Terminator Squads who have two wounds. Makes no sense in most cases. Just give the sarge two wounds in special units, two show he is The Man but having two wounds on units should be a pretty big deal.

Giving that away with both hands waters down that too much.

For example I hadn't heared anything about Sekhmet Terminators, although having read Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons. But here they are, Mega Ultra Uber Schpecul Terminators, which can not only cast spell like noone else but also are way tougher than almost any other Terminator.

That I don't get.

Deathshroud- of course.

Firedrakes- sure thang.

But a bunch of Wizards in Terminator Armour?

Same with a lot of other special units. They should all be special but not in a super awesome tough way.

Gorgons for instance.

Just give them access to Grav Guns or stuff like that. Make them be iconic in the way of their Legion.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Gorgoff