Will every 30k legion get unique 2W Terminators?

[Kizzdougs]

 

Still think having 1W is fine on some units. Everything just needs to be appropriately costed.

 

Sehkmet higher and Varagyr lower, for example.

I second that.

My Tyrants are just fine with one wound and I don't see why they should have two and I believe there are already too many Terminator Squads who have two wounds. Makes no sense in most cases. Just give the sarge two wounds in special units, two show he is The Man but having two wounds on units should be a pretty big deal.

Giving that away with both hands waters down that too much.

For example I hadn't heared anything about Sekhmet Terminators, although having read Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons. But here they are, Mega Ultra Uber Schpecul Terminators, which can not only cast spell like noone else but also are way tougher than almost any other Terminator.

That I don't get.

Deathshroud- of course.

Firedrakes- sure thang.

But a bunch of Wizards in Terminator Armour?

Same with a lot of other special units. They should all be special but not in a super awesome tough way.

Gorgons for instance.

Just give them access to Grav Guns or stuff like that. Make them be iconic in the way of their Legion.

 

To be fair being a ‘wizard in terminator armour’ is pretty next level, especially when it’s a space marine wizard in terminator armour… The Sekhmet are all “High Initiates of the Prosperine Mysteries who had sublimated their abilities and emotions into the highest levels of spiritual control, and were able to shun injuries by mere strength of unified will that even to a Space Marine would have proved mortal.” (quote from their unit entry in Inferno).

 

Also, this isn’t D&D where being a wizard class makes you physically weaker or less skilled in close combat. The Sekhmet are still supremely gifted warriors, like any other elite terminator unit, but they also happen to be some of the Thousand Sons’ most talented psykers. That’s a pretty deadly combo.

 

Having said that, they should cost a lot more than they do :P

[Spiritual Liege]

 

 

 

Still think having 1W is fine on some units. Everything just needs to be appropriately costed.

 

Sehkmet higher and Varagyr lower, for example.

I second that.

My Tyrants are just fine with one wound and I don't see why they should have two and I believe there are already too many Terminator Squads who have two wounds. Makes no sense in most cases. Just give the sarge two wounds in special units, two show he is The Man but having two wounds on units should be a pretty big deal.

Giving that away with both hands waters down that too much.

For example I hadn't heared anything about Sekhmet Terminators, although having read Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons. But here they are, Mega Ultra Uber Schpecul Terminators, which can not only cast spell like noone else but also are way tougher than almost any other Terminator.

That I don't get.

Deathshroud- of course.

Firedrakes- sure thang.

But a bunch of Wizards in Terminator Armour?

Same with a lot of other special units. They should all be special but not in a super awesome tough way.

Gorgons for instance.

Just give them access to Grav Guns or stuff like that. Make them be iconic in the way of their Legion.

To be fair being a ‘wizard in terminator armour’ is pretty next level, especially when it’s a space marine wizard in terminator armour… The Sekhmet are all “High Initiates of the Prosperine Mysteries who had sublimated their abilities and emotions into the highest levels of spiritual control, and were able to shun injuries by mere strength of unified will that even to a Space Marine would have proved mortal.” (quote from their unit entry in Inferno).

 

Also, this isn’t D&D where being a wizard class makes you physically weaker or less skilled in close combat. The Sekhmet are still supremely gifted warriors, like any other elite terminator unit, but they also happen to be some of the Thousand Sons’ most talented psykers. That’s a pretty deadly combo.

 

Having said that, they should cost a lot more than they do :P

Yes, also the Scarab Occult (now Sekhmet) have always been Magnus' bodyguards and a really elite group, it was expected for them to be powerful.

 

But yeah they still are undercosted.

[rendingon1+]

So, if they are "able to shun injuries by mere strength of unified will" why don't they have FnP instead?;-)

[Withershadow]

If W2 becomes standard for Terminators to improve their value, would existing 2-wound Terminators get 3 wounds?

[Gorgoff]

If W2 becomes standard for Terminators to improve their value, would existing 2-wound Terminators get 3 wounds?

And a Praetor in Terminator Armour 4 wounds?

What about Primarchs or other special charakters?

[Mazryonh]

I think all legion specific terminators should be 2W. Because - why the hell not. There's really no fluff argument why SoH, TS or DG specific termies should have double W and Lerneans, Phoenixes or Varangyr shouldn't. 2W for CC termies at least.

 

Why not 2W for Phoenix Terminators? It would make them a little more competitive at least, given that they can hit hard on the charge but don't have much staying power beyond that of vanilla termies once they get stuck in. Still, even with a 2W buff, Phoenixes are one of the least versatile unique terminators in 30k until their rules get updated, because they can't handle vehicles, or multi-wound/high-toughness infantry, and have no ranged weapons at all. 

 

Also, why people think that every named unit mentioned in the book must have tabletop representation? I don't get it why Huscarls should have rules - I read the book as well and aside form being (mentioned as) Dorn's bodyguard they did nothing that would mark them as special. You can represent them with normal terminators or command squad. Same with Archamus - neither great warrior or general in the book. I See no reason why he should have any rules, especially when more interesting chatacters such as Rann or Katafalque have none.

 

Because some 30k fans like to play out scenarios based on the HH novels, to start. Also, no one says it has to be the original Archamus. The end of Praetorian of Dorn tells us that "Archamus" is strongly hinted to become an honourary title name for whomever takes the position of first among Huscarls in the future. 

 

I'd like to think that Archamus and the Huscarls were originally intended to have some unique tricks and equipment up their sleeves in the story, but perhaps the HH model staff told the author "Cut back a bit! Gav Thorpe mentioned enough stuff for the Dark Angels' Dreadwing in Angels of Caliban that could fill an entire army's model range! Don't overload us by hyping up models we haven't designed yet that the fans will beg us for!" or something to that effect. I'd settle for the Huscarls always having the "Resolve of Stone" and "Shield Charge" rules in effect on their unit no matter the RoW chosen, maybe even the option to take master-crafted Solarite Power Gauntlets for all of them. 

 

I second that and may add:

If every shmock gets rules I want rules for Iron Warriors Rhinos who can form a makeshift fortification.

 

That, at least, would be relatively easy for FW to make. They love making Rhino doors and Rhino/Predator Extra Armour for any Space Marine faction they support. Adding "attachment points" on the side armour or improved front armour piece so Rhinos can move together on the tabletop with more staying power than unmodified Rhinos shouldn't be too hard for FW either.  

 

Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but I can’t remember a single mention of a single Blood Angel Terminator ever in any HH material*.

 

I mean, yes, I am sure they had them as @Mazyronh says, there is a practical side there. I just don’t see them as being unique in any way other than BA who wear terminator armor. I mean, maybe they get cool 30k models, but I wouldn’t guess...or even necessarily want...them to have anything special beyond being BA.

 

The Sanguinary Guard will undoubtedly be one of if not “the” special unit for the IX Legion in Malevolence, partially because they are the obligatory bodyguard unit, partially because they are the handpicked Elite-of-the-Elite (in both 30k and 40k), and certainly because they are just too cool.

 

If FW made a reference to the original Space Hulk boardgame (which featured Blood Angels Terminators) for Terminator-armoured Sanguinary Guard, as in "they learned to don and fight effectively in Terminator Armour when clearing Human Rebels and Xenos from derelict or drifting void ships," it'd be a nice nod to old-school 40k since the first appearance of Terminator Armour in any official 40k product ever was in Space Hulk. As for unique equipment, letting Sanguinary Guard Terminators take lesser versions of their Photonic Relic Blades, or even the ability to take Assault 2 Inferno Pistols instead of Combi-Bolters mgiht also work. 

 

Do Deathwing exist in 30k?

 

Also why should White Scars get 2W terminators? If anything they should a variation of Tartaros that gets high initiative and movement or something. Every legion shouldn't get the same thing with a different skin.

 

The Dark Angels' six Wings already existed in 30k, including the Ravenwing and Deathwing, the only two which are still known to be in use for 40k. 

 

As for why the White Scars should get 2W terminators, it's because every Legion may have its own unique strengths, but each needed to be self-sufficient in its strategic and tactical capabilities, and had a standardized selection of infantry and vehicle types planned out by the Emperor before the return of the Primarchs, including an elite terminator unit. That's why the White Scars are still capable of armoured warfare with tanks despite not specializing in it.

 

Also, there are plenty of tactical situations where hitting and running isn't possible or desirable, such as the cityfighting and defensive siege actions in the Siege of Terra, or voidship boarding actions. Elite Cataphractii Terminators would be the hardiest non-unique infantry a Space Marine Legion could field in that situation. Having said that, giving the White Scars Keshig (their unique terminator units) the ability to Hit and Run would be a good start.

 

I second that.

My Tyrants are just fine with one wound and I don't see why they should have two and I believe there are already too many Terminator Squads who have two wounds. Makes no sense in most cases. Just give the sarge two wounds in special units, two show he is The Man but having two wounds on units should be a pretty big deal.

Giving that away with both hands waters down that too much.

For example I hadn't heared anything about Sekhmet Terminators, although having read Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons. But here they are, Mega Ultra Uber Schpecul Terminators, which can not only cast spell like noone else but also are way tougher than almost any other Terminator.

That I don't get.

Deathshroud- of course.

Firedrakes- sure thang.

But a bunch of Wizards in Terminator Armour?

Same with a lot of other special units. They should all be special but not in a super awesome tough way.

Gorgons for instance.

Just give them access to Grav Guns or stuff like that. Make them be iconic in the way of their Legion.

 

I've already said that Tyrants should have had a horrendously long record of offensive siege battles, likely involved being bowled over multiple times by heavy weaponry and just getting back up again to continue an advance, so their resilience gained from experience should be reflected in more than just their equipment. Giving their Sergeant more wounds would at least give us some breathing room against attempts to snipe him and deprive his unit of his useful omniscope.

 

Gorgons only have a vanilla-termie-level invulnerable save (not the best to have around once the enemy starts shooting lots of AP2 weapons at them), which is what led me to believe that the Morlocks were originally intended to be based on Cataphractii Termies (Gorgons last I checked can't even do Sweeping Advances). Stronger Grav Guns that Get Hot might also be a balanced unique weapon for Morlocks too. 

 

So, if they are "able to shun injuries by mere strength of unified will" why don't they have FnP instead?;-)

 

I think it was just a fluff justification for their 2W. Here, try this version instead: "Sekhmet must roll for their powers normally, but if you aren't satisfied you may forgo the rolled powers for just the Endurance psychic power instead." So like the theme for the Thousand Sons, the preternatural endurance of Sekmets wouldn't come from their gene-seed but from a magical buff. 

 

 

If W2 becomes standard for Terminators to improve their value, would existing 2-wound Terminators get 3 wounds?

And a Praetor in Terminator Armour 4 wounds?

What about Primarchs or other special charakters?

 

 

How about another way of skinning this cat? Basic Vanilla or CC Terminators get 2 wounds, unique Terminators stay at 2 but their Sergeants get 3, but losing an entire unit of Unique Terminators nets the opponent one more VP, to represent how rare these elite-of-the-elite infantry are.

[Master Sheol]

All terminators should be 2W

Period

 

But this is HH and not 8th

[rendingon1+]

Fortunately one can choose, right?

 

2W on some is not really a problem to me, I just don't quite understand reasoning behind double W termies. And after all it's still irrevelent when taking S8 fist to the face.

[Charlo]

Fortunately one can choose, right?

 

2W on some is not really a problem to me, I just don't quite understand reasoning behind double W termies. And after all it's still irrevelent when taking S8 fist to the face.

 

True, but a fair amount of AP2 weapons are not S8, so with 2W, 4++ and maybe a FNP roll, those terminators become a real hassle to shift.

 

It's helpful against shooting too, especially the likes of Plasma.

[Gorgoff]

Terminators I kill with Bolters, just like marines should do.

[Spiritual Liege]

I'm fine with some having only one wound if they have something that make them special and unique instead.

[Huggtand]

I'm fine with some having only one wound if they have something that make them special and unique instead.

 

Or cost less.

 

Varagyr is an example with one wound terminators that cost more than most 2 wound terminators but don't have any rules that actually makes up for the cost. Either reduce the cost or give them one wound more for the same cost.

[Charlo]

 

I'm fine with some having only one wound if they have something that make them special and unique instead.

 

Or cost less.

 

Varagyr is an example with one wound terminators that cost more than most 2 wound terminators but don't have any rules that actually makes up for the cost. Either reduce the cost or give them one wound more for the same cost.

 

The HoW and challenge rules are quite nice IMO, but probably not worth the cost still!

[Runefyre]

 

 

I'm fine with some having only one wound if they have something that make them special and unique instead.

 

Or cost less.

 

Varagyr is an example with one wound terminators that cost more than most 2 wound terminators but don't have any rules that actually makes up for the cost. Either reduce the cost or give them one wound more for the same cost.

 

The HoW and challenge rules are quite nice IMO, but probably not worth the cost still!

 

The rules suck, pure and simple, but they're very thematic. Why would I want to hamstring my chances of a successful charge just to gain afew str5 ap- hits that are almost always saved? I can't remember the last time HoW hurt anything other than guardsmen, which I'm not sending my varagyr against anyway. Lordsbane is more situationally useful, but in all the Heresy games I've played, challenges that are winnable are in a combat I already was going to win, +1 or not. If I actually need the +1, I probably am using a praetor with paragon blade or Leman Russ to win the challenge, because a varaygr theign just isn't good odds against tougher characters (and 50/50 chance to win if he's fighting a character the same level as him isn't worth +1). Plus varagyr are often fighting fearless units, and are fearless themselves (thanks to Russ or a speaker of the dead). This completely negates bothe Lordsbane and Fear.

 

Again, I love the themes but as rules they suck for the cost. 

 

On topic, I hope all terminators eventually get 2W, then give elite units unique rules to make them special. I'm tired of my terminators dying to a single lasgun.

[SickSix]

@Mazryonh Um, I feel like you actually support my point in your rebuttal. White Scars 'can' fight in any doctrine of Adeptus Astartes but specialize in hit and run. So why should their extra speedy Keshig be as resilient as a Fire Drake? That just doesn't make sense. And, the Siege of Terra was just that, a planetary wide siege. There was a lot more to it than just the fight at the Palace. The Kahn can still employ his legion's speciality in the early stages. Hit and run attacks to slow the advance of the traitor forces.

 

Can they stand and fight? Sure, but they won't be as effective as Iron Warriors or Imperial Fists. And their rules should reflect that.

 

Also speed is still useful in a city fight. It just only manifests on a tactical level, not a strategic one. First up the stairs, flooding a room with before the enemy can react.

[Mazryonh]

True, but a fair amount of AP2 weapons are not S8, so with 2W, 4++ and maybe a FNP roll, those terminators become a real hassle to shift.

 

It's helpful against shooting too, especially the likes of Plasma.

 

That's one thing I would like to see FW address. Not only are most termies overcosted relative to their ingame utility, plasma is one of the things they are very vulnerable to. 2W would be a step towards making termies really good objective holders. 

 

@Mazryonh Um, I feel like you actually support my point in your rebuttal. White Scars 'can' fight in any doctrine of Adeptus Astartes but specialize in hit and run. So why should their extra speedy Keshig be as resilient as a Fire Drake? That just doesn't make sense. And, the Siege of Terra was just that, a planetary wide siege. There was a lot more to it than just the fight at the Palace. The Kahn can still employ his legion's speciality in the early stages. Hit and run attacks to slow the advance of the traitor forces.

 

Can they stand and fight? Sure, but they won't be as effective as Iron Warriors or Imperial Fists. And their rules should reflect that.

 

Also speed is still useful in a city fight. It just only manifests on a tactical level, not a strategic one. First up the stairs, flooding a room with before the enemy can react.

 

The White Scars are out of their element during the Siege of Terra, specializing as they do in offensive actions over open terrain. Even their "Swift Action" rule reflects this, because it's useless when sitting behind a fortification or on a good firing position while using heavy weaponry. So the Scars are stuck being standard legion marines while defending a fixed locale, without the defensive advantages given to the Imperial Fists, or even the Iron Hands. Once the traitors made landfall on Terra, Hitting and Running would do nothing but buy less and less time before the main traitor force makes its way down. 

 

Furthermore, to Hit and Run, you need a safe place or direction to run to. In the mazelike streets and myriad cramped buildings of Old Terra, many of whose avenues and passageways were simply never built to accommodate people the size of Astartes (which in 30k are still a relatively recent invention) or bigger, which means that the Scars' options for maneuver warfare is severely restricted.  This doesn't even take into account how, after the Unification of Terra, people who were freed from living in terrible conditions and from the constant warfare started building and repairing everything they could on the planet until it became a planet-spanning city again, much of which will be wrecked during the Siege, greatly delaying any loyalist retreat. 

 

Horus' objective is a fixed location, all the legions who listen to his orders have their guns largely fixed in the direction of the Palace, and if the defenders tried to hit and run from flanking directions they'd leave the walls unmanned at worst, or only distract the traitors momentarily at best.  That's because the White Scars don't have the manpower, or battlefield control, or orbital/aerial superiority to carry out their tactical specialty.  If they tried to run away over a clear area (hard to find in the Siege) after hitting hard, they still have to deal with traitor airpower or orbital fire, or even just daemons summoned by Lorgar's forces who can turn up almost anywhere chasing them down or getting in their way. 

 

As for the Keshig, I'd argue that eventually the White Scars got into enough close-quarters situations where Hitting and Running wasn't useful that some members got good enough at it, and were put into Cataphractii armour (the best standard equipment for this kind of situation). All that's assuming the Khan's not incompetent, which I hope he will be portrayed as even while being forced into conditions he'd likely find claustrophobia-inducing. 

 

Technically I'd like to see the Emperor send out the Scars away from the Palace walls (which is not where they'll be most effective) to try and rescue any loyalist human forces outside the Palace's walls and bring them inside to play their part. One of the greatest atrocities of the Siege of Terra was when some of the traitor legions got bored and started ravaging the planet's civilian population. Successfully rescuing and then press-ganging those people into the Emperor's service would require a lot of swift action, indeed. 

[bluntblade]

In existing cannon the Scars deal with the problem by sallying forth and wreaking havoc behind the Traitor lines