Has the Codex made us worse?

[Palwatch]

Ive played 4 big games now with codex. I have used elite heavy lists (lots of DC SG etc) to try out the strats.

 

Heres my opinion so far.

 

The game meta is heavy shooting hoard armies. Being good at charging does not help us. I found that, in being encouraged to charge, i am killing some units, but being wiped out by shooting straight away. A sang guard unit dying having killed a single unit is a huge loss. If anything, the codex is helping us die faster.

 

It has been a very disheartening two days. It is far too easy for your opponent to set up to mitigate ur DS, and they laugh at u when u charge anyway.

 

Honestly thinking of just going back to Devs with dante in cover, with a scout shield, and a single elite charging unit.

 

Or loading out with many many cheap assault squads.

 

I was very excited by what we got at the start. Ive been destroyed by what it actually means

[Blindhamster]

We absolutely should not be trying to charge in with everything straight away, We are still a marine army, we're just better in combat than others.

 

As others have said, we are a finesse army, whilst we CAN charge in from deep strike, it doesn't mean we should, and whilst we CAN take loads of close combat units, it doesn't mean it's optimal.

 

The codex absolutely made us stronger, the only real nerf we had was to shield of sanguinius. And in exchange we got a plethora of new options.

[Panzer]

As I always say, the key to winning with Blood Angels is having a balanced list. Don't try to build a Berzerker list with Blood Angels and don't put all your eggs in one basket.

[Palwatch]

Actually good advice. Thank you

YoU've talked me down off the ledge lads

Edited December 10, 2017 by Brother Tyler
Text style formatting (i.e., "u" for "you") isn't allowed per the B&C forum rules.

[Blindhamster]

A good BA list will have solider fire support, and a few melee units that should probably be used in later turns, will probably play a bit like a tougher slower eldar

[Xenith]

Would be good to know what else was in the army, but it sounds like you fell into the 5th ed DoA trap of "we have better deepstrike ability so everything should deepstrike immediately".

 

This led to a lot of disgruntlement with the codex and people calling it weak because they kept using DoA to deploy 50% of their army within 7" of the enemy and wondered why they kept getting blown off the table T2. 

 

In reality, the precision deepstrike was better for:

 

1) keeping your guys off table to prevent alpha strikes

2) deepstriking in/on LoS blocking terrain T2 to protect them for a T3 charge

3)  deepstriking meltaguns.

 

If the issue is bubblewrap, you need something to clear the chaff T1. 4x heavy bolter devs are a little over 100 pts, if I remember correctly. There are a few ways to get 12 shot weapons in the army now. Use them. 

 

Multi charge. Get the bubblewrap and another unit, Spread your deepstrikers out so that for some of them, the nearest enemy model is nit the primary target. You'll eat more overwatch, sure, but you neutralise 100% more enemy units. You'll be shot by them anyway, it's better if its at BS6+ rather than their normal BS.

 

 

Being good at charging does not help us. I found that, in being encouraged to charge, i am killing some units, but being wiped out by shooting straight away. 

 

This is not a new problem, however what's encouraging you to charge? Red Thirst works if you are charged also. 

 

Your 10 man intercessor squad got charged? Whoops. Try to interrupt combat order with command points, and watch them swing back with 20 attacks that wound marines on 3+.

[Morticon]

Ive played 4 big games now with codex. I have used elite heavy lists (lots of DC SG etc) to try out the strats.

 

Heres my opinion so far.

 

The game meta is heavy shooting hoard armies. Being good at charging does not help us. I found that, in being encouraged to charge, i am killing some units, but being wiped out by shooting straight away. A sang guard unit dying having killed a single unit is a huge loss. If anything, the codex is helping us die faster.

 

It has been a very disheartening two days. It is far too easy for your opponent to set up to mitigate ur DS, and they laugh at u when u charge anyway.

 

Honestly thinking of just going back to Devs with dante in cover, with a scout shield, and a single elite charging unit.

 

Or loading out with many many cheap assault squads.

 

I was very excited by what we got at the start. Ive been destroyed by what it actually means

 

To answer your question, before addressing individual points and concerns ->   

 

Absolutely and undeniably not.  

We are far, far stronger than ever before by simple virtue of the fact that we got more options, got cheaper options and lost nothing.  The codex has added +Alpha to everything the index was.  There has been nothing taken away from us.  

 

Now to your concerns, 

 

This is and always has been the problem with 8th.  It was raised in the "Open Letter to GW" thread  (not sure if you read it Palwatch? )

Basically, and imo - with all things being equal - 8th is unbalanced at best and "broken" at worst - what you've discovered with the dex is related to a fundamental flaw of the system.  

 

Wiley veterans and competitive gamers in the forum noticed the same before the dex dropped and why, like me, they were hoping for the BA ability/Chapter Tactics to mess with the system a bit (eg: prevent charged units from falling back for a turn). 

 

People will always say that there are ways around this, but with the way the system is designed- especially for the 9" deploy from reserve, and how easily it is to bring in cannon fodder into armies, the game is fundamentally different.  I do honestly believe that GW will change it some time, because what looked to be exceptional changes and a really tight, fun, engaging system very quickly turned on its head for me when I saw what lists devolved to.  

 

There is one non-system based way to  change things up drastically, but it just seems like very few groups, my gaming groups included, are getting on board with it.  That is with LOTS of LOS blocking terrain.  

 

This COMPLETELY changes the game.  8th needs BIG terrain pieces with full LOS blocking.  The way cover works now completely invalidated the benefits that ruins and similarly designed terrain features offered.  With LOS blocking terrain, 

 

 

That being said, BA now play like they SHOULD - for better or worse.  This means that in order to make them work, because i'm not entirely convinced its a complete lost cause yet, we need to be better generals and better list designers.  Synergy is the name of the game, and just playing a massive rush forward with expensive units (like SG) is a surefire way to lose a game.   

 

Layering charges, providing fire support and timing engagements is where we will get the drop on opponents.   

 

I dont believe this is easily done, though.   

[Panzer]

I agree LoS blocking terrain is needed badly. I'm about to order MDF ruins for about 100€ for my group and then go ahead and barricade the lower areas. I'd also recommend using the Cities fo Death rules for ruins as well.

[TheFinisher4Ever]

I played 2 games with the new codex on Saturday as well. If screens and chaff units are what ails you, a 15 man death company blob with chainswords may be the cure. They put out 30 Bolter shots, then charge in with 4 attacks a piece, hitting on 3s and wounding most screen units on 2. Just multi assualt all of the screens at the same time, and after killing the first line, activate the stratagem to attack again and you can pile-in to the second line and shred that one. With forlorn fury, they can also jump right past scout screens. If you can, deepstrike Lemartes helps with this as well as he gives them reroll charges and hits in combat.

 

In one of my games, they were able to kill ~50 gaunts in one turn. In my other game, they killed 15 ad mech rangers/vanguard then we're able to pile in and tie up another squad of rangers, Cawl and a dunecrawler.

 

Also, I echo what the others here saying. LoS blocking terrain is a must this edition. If you don't have enough at your gaming space, FLG recommends playing with the bottom floor of all ruins counting as LoS blocking.

Edited December 10, 2017 by TheFinisher4Ever

[Ishagu]

I think it's pretty clear that if you simply go in with a single focus you're going to struggle. All out assault can backfire.

 

BA will actually best in a balanced list with a unique forwarding element. Build a firebase, have objective grabbers, and then have an additional focus on the assault element that's very much unique to BA.

 

Combine the firepower from Tanks to smash open transports so your DC or SG can assault, or use them to clear out chaff units or harass troops. 3 such assaulting units are going to create diminishing returns.

[Panzer]

I played 2 games with the new codex on Saturday as well. If screens and chaff units are what ails you, a 15 man death company blob with chainswords may be the cure. They put out 30 Bolter shots, then charge in with 4 attacks a piece, hitting on 3s and wounding most screen units on 2. Just multi assualt all of the screens at the same time, and after killing the first line, activate the stratagem to attack again and you can pile-in to the second line and shred that one. With forlorn fury, they can also jump right past scout screens. If you can, deepstrike Lemartes helps with this as well as he gives them reroll charges and hits in combat.

 

In one of my games, they were able to kill ~50 gaunts in one turn. In my other game, they killed 15 ad mech rangers/vanguard then we're able to pile in and tie up another squad of rangers, Cawl and a dunecrawler.

The problem with blobs is not that you can't kill them, it's that they prevent you from dropping near the targets you actually want to charge. If you use your Deathcompany to kill the blobs they'll get shot to death afterwards. You need to clear them first and then drop in next round. 

[Brother Crimson]

So far I am pleased with the codex.

We are extremely good to take down big heavy armour with DC captain or Mephiston/Libby Dread.

The +1 to wound helps a lot to wipe clean units on charge.

We still have our marine gun line and wings of fire for a nasty trick, especially versus other melee units. If you charge a shooting unit (like we should) and then the opponent disengage and charges back with a melee or fodder unit to lock us in, you fly back high, gun line the melee/ fodder them and just redeploy the JP somewhere else.

There is a lot we can do with this codex.

[Xenith]

 

There is one non-system based way to  change things up drastically, but it just seems like very few groups, my gaming groups included, are getting on board with it.  That is with LOTS of LOS blocking terrain.  

This COMPLETELY changes the game.  8th needs BIG terrain pieces with full LOS blocking.  The way cover works now completely invalidated the benefits that ruins and similarly designed terrain features offered.  With LOS blocking terrain, 

 

 

Bear in mind that GW has always* (*since 5th?) emphasised that their games need lots of terrain. They used to recommend 25% table coverage minimum with a mix of area terrain, ruins, and total LOS blockers. That's minimum. Realistically the table needs 33 - 50% terrain, 1/3 of which is LoS blocking, meaning you should have enough LoS blocking terrain to completely fill a single realm of battle tile (in a 6'x4' game), or at least over half. 

 

This is the environment their games will have been designed and tested in. If you always play on planet green bowling ball, then shooty armies will dominate.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Xenith

[Charlo]

I'm thinking more and more the game is about certainty, reliability and backup plans.

 

More than one "Turn one get stuck in" combat unit probably isn't going to work, because you're hoping to get too many charges off and then you're probably only going to wipe out some throw away units.

 

So how do you make it reliable? Large Chunk of DC, Lemartes and Descent mean you are going to get that 9" charge off. So that's your unit in combat first turn.

 

The back up to this is also dropping Mephiston nearby and pouring resources into casting wings so that he can also charge something big.

 

Then the other part is another unit or two of shooting stuff to drop near and eliminate other threats.

[Panzer]

Dunno, I'd rather do the opposite. Shoot their chaff turn one, maybe drop 1-2 5 man Assault units to put up a little bit more pressure without sacrificing too many points and hold back the big hammer for turn two or three once the juicy targets are more vulnerable (either by the opponent spreading out or by you removing their chaff...or both).

 

I think first turn charges with a big unit is a trap for us in most szenarios. A sweet sweet trap I'd love to fall into....wait I think that's the Red Thirst speaking through me here! ^^

[Xenith]

Yup. Charge, countercharge, charge.

 

The mini wargaming /tabletop whatever battle report made that mistake in their BA vs World Eater battle report: From what I read, the BA player dropped all his guys right in front of the WE counter charge elements, who then jumped out and ate them all.

 

bolter scouts upfield to clear some chaff, or ccw scouts to assault t1, or deny the opponent movement.

 

If you get first turn and there is chaff, maybe sacrifice a lieutenant to drop in behind your skirmish screen to make them more effective in wiping out the opposing screen. 

 

Turn 2 have your heavy hitters drop in and assault when the opponent has committed to dealing with the scouts,. By then, any furiosos or transports should be nearby to assist.

 

EDIT:

 

5 index company vets with jump packs and stormbolters are still reasonably cheap and can drop in and pump out 20 bolt rounds. If they're still alive turn 2 they can babysit the squishier support characters. 

Edited December 10, 2017 by Xenith

[Charlo]

Sadly, I just don't want to use index options now. Especially ones I don't have models for :(

[Panzer]

Same. I'm already fully prepared to go Primaris-only to reduce future disappointments which is basically just an extension of deciding not to use Index options anymore.

[Xenith]

Magnets?

 

I think a standout unit is the humble biker. 3 guys with 2 plasma get 16 shots, and they're fast enough to get close, and tougher than they used to be.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

The plan im working on is as follows: 10 man assault squad, all chain swords and bp, to use as a turn 1 3D6 charge unit supported by 5 man DC with 1 TH and 1 PF using forlorn fury to get to vehicles or smaller chaff units. Behing these i will have an advancing SG squad which will be able to shoot its bolters(31-36" shooting range on turn 1) and a 9 man DC, all power swords, and chaplain in a rhino using overcharged engines setting up for the turn 2 charge. That is four units that after turn 1 have to be dealt with and since they are relitively cheap wont stop me from investing in chaff killing shooty units.or tank busting shooty units to help them achieve max damage.

 

Well. I hope this works...

Edited December 10, 2017 by Dolchiate Remembrancer

[Morticon]

 

 

There is one non-system based way to  change things up drastically, but it just seems like very few groups, my gaming groups included, are getting on board with it.  That is with LOTS of LOS blocking terrain.  

This COMPLETELY changes the game.  8th needs BIG terrain pieces with full LOS blocking.  The way cover works now completely invalidated the benefits that ruins and similarly designed terrain features offered.  With LOS blocking terrain, 

 

 

Bear in mind that GW has always* (*since 5th?) emphasised that their games need lots of terrain. They used to recommend 25% table coverage minimum with a mix of area terrain, ruins, and total LOS blockers. That's minimum. Realistically the table needs 33 - 50% terrain, 1/3 of which is LoS blocking, meaning you should have enough LoS blocking terrain to completely fill a single realm of battle tile (in a 6'x4' game), or at least over half. 

 

This is the environment their games will have been designed and tested in. If you always play on planet green bowling ball, then shooty armies will dominate.

 

They have. And I remember them saying varied terrain, but never ever mentioned LOS blocking- largely because of how cover worked before.  Now, its a necessity, really.  

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think the tricky part with BA alpha strikes is managing to have enough CP, and hammer units. The suggestions about LOS blocking terrain are excellent as well. 8th gives a lot of inherit advantages to gun lines, but if you limit their LoS and make them have to move it really forces them to have a strategy.

 

Units like bolter scouts are a great unit to build around as they are cheap, can apply pressure early to screens, and enable cheap battalions/brigades. In addition to providing some deep strike protection on their own. 

[Bonzi]

We are far better now. Some are just falling for the 'shinny spoon' trap where they focus everything around the new and exciting toy and leave behind flexible list building and tactical play. It happens to us all sometimes when we get something new to use.

[brother_b]

I think that specific cover should be discussed prior to a game. The wooded area that actually only has 3 trees should count as line of sight blocking. It's not a real woods. Just because you can see through the terrain piece does not mean it shouldn't "count as" LOS blocking. 

 

The same thing goes for buildings. If you can see the arm of a model through a window of a piece of terrain do you get to shoot the whole unit? Should that be a conversation?

 

In our games we've said that if a unit is taking advantage of cover, say a building, and you can see models then yes you are able to target. If the unit is on the other SIDE of the terrain, and is not "taking advantage" of cover then we count it as LOS blocking.

 

There used to be a rule, sheesh I don't even remember if it was 40K or another system, that you had to be within 1" of the edge of a piece of terrain to see out of it and to be targetted.

 

They really should clarify, and people should really be a lot more open to LOS blocking interpretations.

 

That being said, in our group, if someone asks if they've got LOS I'm usually one to give it to them. We're pretty good about that. 

[Panzer]

I think that specific cover should be discussed prior to a game. The wooded area that actually only has 3 trees should count as line of sight blocking. It's not a real woods. Just because you can see through the terrain piece does not mean it shouldn't "count as" LOS blocking.

WHFB used to have more detailed rules for woods. Something according to "you can only look 2" into and out of a forest terrain piece". Given terrain had a much different meaning in fantasy since you'd need several turns for a unit to walk through a forest but something like that sounds good for 40k as well imo.

 

The same thing goes for buildings. If you can see the arm of a model through a window of a piece of terrain do you get to shoot the whole unit? Should that be a conversation?

That's a different topic. That's simply how the shooting rules work and has nothing to do with the terrain rules.

 

There used to be a rule, sheesh I don't even remember if it was 40K or another system, that you had to be within 1" of the edge of a piece of terrain to see out of it and to be targetted.

Yeah as I said above, WHFB had something like that.