Has the Codex made us worse?

[Ishagu]

We are far better now. Some are just falling for the 'shinny spoon' trap where they focus everything around the new and exciting toy and leave behind flexible list building and tactical play. It happens to us all sometimes when we get something new to use.

If you allow yourself to be counter charged or "beta struck" it's on you, not the codex.

[Thrown Pommel]

I think Inceptors with bolters are going to be really good for clearing chaff units. 18 S5 AP-1 for 135 points is a pretty good deal. Can even save descent of angels for a real beat stick assault unit (thinking DC or sanguinary guard).

 

I'm also thinking about Death Company paired with shooty terminators, specifically cataphractii, as a beta strike. Storm bolters are really good at clearing chaff. More likely than not the termies will be in charge range turn two or three, and if the opponent was focusing on the Death company the termiators are probably in good shape. Likewise if they target the terminators the Death Company gets to run rampant. Thoughts?

Edited December 10, 2017 by Thrown Pommel

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

 

We are far better now. Some are just falling for the 'shinny spoon' trap where they focus everything around the new and exciting toy and leave behind flexible list building and tactical play. It happens to us all sometimes when we get something new to use.

If you allow yourself to be counter charged or "beta struck" it's on you, not the codex.

Yea but you have to agree that a codex that inspires you to risk it all and go for the alpha strike putting you at risk of the beta strike all the time is bad design.

[Withershadow]

I played 2 games with the new codex on Saturday as well. If screens and chaff units are what ails you, a 15 man death company blob with chainswords may be the cure. They put out 30 Bolter shots, then charge in with 4 attacks a piece, hitting on 3s and wounding most screen units on 2. Just multi assualt all of the screens at the same time, and after killing the first line, activate the stratagem to attack again and you can pile-in to the second line and shred that one. With forlorn fury, they can also jump right past scout screens. If you can, deepstrike Lemartes helps with this as well as he gives them reroll charges and hits in combat.

 

In one of my games, they were able to kill ~50 gaunts in one turn. In my other game, they killed 15 ad mech rangers/vanguard then we're able to pile in and tie up another squad of rangers, Cawl and a dunecrawler.

 

Also, I echo what the others here saying. LoS blocking terrain is a must this edition. If you don't have enough at your gaming space, FLG recommends playing with the bottom floor of all ruins counting as LoS blocking.

Do you deep strike the chaff-remover squad or advance them normally up the field?  And can you still charge if you advanced during the forlorn fury move?

[Ishagu]

 

 

We are far better now. Some are just falling for the 'shinny spoon' trap where they focus everything around the new and exciting toy and leave behind flexible list building and tactical play. It happens to us all sometimes when we get something new to use.

If you allow yourself to be counter charged or "beta struck" it's on you, not the codex.

Yea but you have to agree that a codex that inspires you to risk it all and go for the alpha strike putting you at risk of the beta strike all the time is bad design.

No. Who says you need to do all this straight away? If you charge some chaff and then get hit by units coming out of transports that's bad tactics.

 

The whole idea is that you can hit a target right out of reserve. You still need the RIGHT target. Blow up those transports, thin out the shield chaff, etc etc

[Panzer]

Having options is never bad. It's about how you use those options.

[TheFinisher4Ever]

 

 

I played 2 games with the new codex on Saturday as well. If screens and chaff units are what ails you, a 15 man death company blob with chainswords may be the cure. They put out 30 Bolter shots, then charge in with 4 attacks a piece, hitting on 3s and wounding most screen units on 2. Just multi assualt all of the screens at the same time, and after killing the first line, activate the stratagem to attack again and you can pile-in to the second line and shred that one. With forlorn fury, they can also jump right past scout screens. If you can, deepstrike Lemartes helps with this as well as he gives them reroll charges and hits in combat.

 

In one of my games, they were able to kill ~50 gaunts in one turn. In my other game, they killed 15 ad mech rangers/vanguard then we're able to pile in and tie up another squad of rangers, Cawl and a dunecrawler.

The problem with blobs is not that you can't kill them, it's that they prevent you from dropping near the targets you actually want to charge. If you use your Deathcompany to kill the blobs they'll get shot to death afterwards. You need to clear them first and then drop in next round.

I definitely agree when it comes to your Sanguinary Guard, but having 300 point DC unit with Forlorn Fury wipe out all of the oppononets screens in 1 turn is points well spent imo. Will they die to shooting next turn? Probably. But that means they aren't shooting your artillary in the back and the screens should be gone so you can drop your heavy hitters down.

[TheFinisher4Ever]

 

 

I played 2 games with the new codex on Saturday as well. If screens and chaff units are what ails you, a 15 man death company blob with chainswords may be the cure. They put out 30 Bolter shots, then charge in with 4 attacks a piece, hitting on 3s and wounding most screen units on 2. Just multi assualt all of the screens at the same time, and after killing the first line, activate the stratagem to attack again and you can pile-in to the second line and shred that one. With forlorn fury, they can also jump right past scout screens. If you can, deepstrike Lemartes helps with this as well as he gives them reroll charges and hits in combat.

 

In one of my games, they were able to kill ~50 gaunts in one turn. In my other game, they killed 15 ad mech rangers/vanguard then we're able to pile in and tie up another squad of rangers, Cawl and a dunecrawler.

 

Also, I echo what the others here saying. LoS blocking terrain is a must this edition. If you don't have enough at your gaming space, FLG recommends playing with the bottom floor of all ruins counting as LoS blocking.

Do you deep strike the chaff-remover squad or advance them normally up the field? And can you still charge if you advanced during the forlorn fury move?

You can charge if you advance during Forlorn Fury since it happens before the turn starts. So I just use Forlorn Fury to move and advance, then move another 12", that puts you into auto charge range in 4 of the 6 deployment types.

 

Keep in mind that Forlorn Fury is used after sieze so you already know if you're going first or not. If you aren't, move and advance them up behind some LoS blocking terrain.

Edited December 10, 2017 by TheFinisher4Ever

[Panzer]

 

 

I played 2 games with the new codex on Saturday as well. If screens and chaff units are what ails you, a 15 man death company blob with chainswords may be the cure. They put out 30 Bolter shots, then charge in with 4 attacks a piece, hitting on 3s and wounding most screen units on 2. Just multi assualt all of the screens at the same time, and after killing the first line, activate the stratagem to attack again and you can pile-in to the second line and shred that one. With forlorn fury, they can also jump right past scout screens. If you can, deepstrike Lemartes helps with this as well as he gives them reroll charges and hits in combat.

 

In one of my games, they were able to kill ~50 gaunts in one turn. In my other game, they killed 15 ad mech rangers/vanguard then we're able to pile in and tie up another squad of rangers, Cawl and a dunecrawler.

The problem with blobs is not that you can't kill them, it's that they prevent you from dropping near the targets you actually want to charge. If you use your Deathcompany to kill the blobs they'll get shot to death afterwards. You need to clear them first and then drop in next round.

I definitely agree when it comes to your Sanguinary Guard, but having 300 point DC unit with Forlorn Fury wipe out all of the oppononets screens in 1 turn is points well spent imo. Will they die to shooting next turn? Probably. But that means they aren't shooting your artillary in the back and the screens should be gone so you can drop your heavy hitters down.

 

Dunno a 300p DC unit already qualifies as heavy hitter to me lol

That's why I don't see that tactic as a good idea at all.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

 

 

I played 2 games with the new codex on Saturday as well. If screens and chaff units are what ails you, a 15 man death company blob with chainswords may be the cure. They put out 30 Bolter shots, then charge in with 4 attacks a piece, hitting on 3s and wounding most screen units on 2. Just multi assualt all of the screens at the same time, and after killing the first line, activate the stratagem to attack again and you can pile-in to the second line and shred that one. With forlorn fury, they can also jump right past scout screens. If you can, deepstrike Lemartes helps with this as well as he gives them reroll charges and hits in combat.

 

In one of my games, they were able to kill ~50 gaunts in one turn. In my other game, they killed 15 ad mech rangers/vanguard then we're able to pile in and tie up another squad of rangers, Cawl and a dunecrawler.

The problem with blobs is not that you can't kill them, it's that they prevent you from dropping near the targets you actually want to charge. If you use your Deathcompany to kill the blobs they'll get shot to death afterwards. You need to clear them first and then drop in next round.

I definitely agree when it comes to your Sanguinary Guard, but having 300 point DC unit with Forlorn Fury wipe out all of the oppononets screens in 1 turn is points well spent imo. Will they die to shooting next turn? Probably. But that means they aren't shooting your artillary in the back and the screens should be gone so you can drop your heavy hitters down.

 

Dunno a 300p DC unit already qualifies as heavy hitter to me lol

That's why I don't see that tactic as a good idea at all.

 

 

Especially when you consider the screen unit is probably just a throw away a 3rd the cost.

[TheFinisher4Ever]

Will it work every time? Of coarse not. But it's worked pretty well in both of the games I've tried it in so far. Screens are definitely cheaper, but they have an outsized strategic value. If you can remove all of the screens in 1 turn, all of your other heavy hitting assualt units can multi-assualt in and tie up and destroy the opponents valuable stuff.

 

It's also decently durable if you can get them in cover. 15 2+ wounds with a 6+++ isn't the easient thing to shift. So they will have to dedicate firepower to removing it.

Edited December 10, 2017 by TheFinisher4Ever

[brother_b]

 

I think that specific cover should be discussed prior to a game. The wooded area that actually only has 3 trees should count as line of sight blocking. It's not a real woods. Just because you can see through the terrain piece does not mean it shouldn't "count as" LOS blocking.

WHFB used to have more detailed rules for woods. Something according to "you can only look 2" into and out of a forest terrain piece". Given terrain had a much different meaning in fantasy since you'd need several turns for a unit to walk through a forest but something like that sounds good for 40k as well imo.

 

The same thing goes for buildings. If you can see the arm of a model through a window of a piece of terrain do you get to shoot the whole unit? Should that be a conversation?

That's a different topic. That's simply how the shooting rules work and has nothing to do with the terrain rules.

 

There used to be a rule, sheesh I don't even remember if it was 40K or another system, that you had to be within 1" of the edge of a piece of terrain to see out of it and to be targetted.

Yeah as I said above, WHFB had something like that.

 

I think you're possibly missing my point. Players should discuss what counts as "LOS blocking" before the game, be it woods, a hill, or ruins. Otherwise lets just set up shoe boxes across the table to ensure LOS blocking. =/

 

All your other points are valid, though, but not really what I was getting at.

Edited December 10, 2017 by brother_b

[Are Verlo]

 

 

 

I think that specific cover should be discussed prior to a game. The wooded area that actually only has 3 trees should count as line of sight blocking. It's not a real woods. Just because you can see through the terrain piece does not mean it shouldn't "count as" LOS blocking.

WHFB used to have more detailed rules for woods. Something according to "you can only look 2" into and out of a forest terrain piece". Given terrain had a much different meaning in fantasy since you'd need several turns for a unit to walk through a forest but something like that sounds good for 40k as well imo.

 

The same thing goes for buildings. If you can see the arm of a model through a window of a piece of terrain do you get to shoot the whole unit? Should that be a conversation?

That's a different topic. That's simply how the shooting rules work and has nothing to do with the terrain rules.

 

There used to be a rule, sheesh I don't even remember if it was 40K or another system, that you had to be within 1" of the edge of a piece of terrain to see out of it and to be targetted.

Yeah as I said above, WHFB had something like that.

I think you're possibly missing my point. Players should discuss what counts as "LOS blocking" before the game, be it woods, a hill, or ruins. Otherwise lets just set up shoe boxes across the table to ensure LOS blocking. =/

 

All your other points are valid, though, but not really what I was getting at.

This September I went to a tournament that really had prepared great terrain. Every table I played at had atleast two pieces that would conpletely los-block my knight atropos. And there were more pieces that would block los to infantry and «normal» vehicles.

 

I guess in 4 out of 5 games there would have been terrain that could hide lagre JPA’ing units and let players set up for next turn charges

[Brother Crimson]

 

I definitely agree when it comes to your Sanguinary Guard, but having 300 point DC unit with Forlorn Fury wipe out all of the oppononets screens in 1 turn is points well spent imo. Will they die to shooting next turn? Probably. But that means they aren't shooting your artillary in the back and the screens should be gone so you can drop your heavy hitters down.

 

 

I'd rather have scouts deployed deep towards the opponent for that. But again, there is no hard rule as everything is dependant on the opponent's build.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

That sucks Palwatch.

I hate it when my plans go to crap on the table; especially new ones I am excited about, feel your pain man.

I had a lot of this when the edition changed and some of the index options looked better on paper than in practice myself.

Pistols in combat, Lemartes, Buff auras with randomly charging mobile elements... etc.

 

Lots of good advice in here already.

 

Try and have fun making another plan or tweeking the one you have into something better.

The path to victory will come and be all the sweeter for it.

---

 

We have nothing to fear, but fear itself.

Apart from pain... Maybe humiliation and obviously there is death... And failure...

But apart from fear, pain, humiliation, failure, the unknown, and death we have nothing to fear.

:D 

 

Hang in there man.

By controlling and channeling the Red Thirst we should become stronger.

[Morticon]

 

That sucks Palwatch.

I hate it when my plans go to crap on the table; especially new ones I am excited about, feel your pain man.

I had a lot of this when the edition changed and some of the index options looked better on paper than in practice myself.

Pistols in combat, Lemartes, Buff auras with randomly charging mobile elements... etc.

 

Lots of good advice in here already.

 

Try and have fun making another plan or tweeking the one you have into something better.

The path to victory will come and be all the sweeter for it.

---

 

We have nothing to fear, but fear itself.

Apart from pain... Maybe humiliation and obviously there is death... And failure...

But apart from fear, pain, humiliation, failure, the unknown, and death we have nothing to fear.

 

Hang in there man.

By controlling and channeling the Red Thirst we should become stronger.

 

Quoted for truth!!!! :tu: 

[Xenith]

They have. And I remember them saying varied terrain, but never ever mentioned LOS blocking- largely because of how cover worked before. Now, its a necessity, really.

Just checked the 4th ed rulebook, it has the provision for 25% table coverage, but also says terrain should be an equal split between LoS blocking and non LoS blocking, but cover providing terrain - so 12.5% of the table should be covered in LoS blocking, or almost a full RoB tile.

The issue is that woods and ruins used to block LoS, however 6th ed (or was it 5th?) moved to "true line of sight" which invalidated much of the old terrain which had single trees, large windows, etc, making things a shooting gallery. GW has an absence of LoS blocking terrain, for sale. The solution is as simple as boarding up all (most) of the ground level windows in all of their city ruin kits.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Xenith

[Aothaine]

I'm with Ishagu in argument. Our codex is gold and while there are ways to do alpha strike if you do so without preparation then it is just bad tactics that is causing the problems.

 

Despite the lore making space marines a blunt force hammer the game makes us slightly resilient scalpels. We are not Death Guard or Imperial Guard. We need to pick our targets and focus fire. Only eat the fruit after you have peeled the shell off it kind of stuff.

[Jolemai]

They have. And I remember them saying varied terrain, but never ever mentioned LOS blocking- largely because of how cover worked before. Now, its a necessity, really.

Just checked the 4th ed rulebook, it has the provision for 25% table coverage, but also says terrain should be an equal split between LoS blocking and non LoS blocking, but cover providing terrain - so 12.5% of the table should be covered in LoS blocking, or almost a full RoB tile.

The issue is that woods and ruins used to block LoS, however 6th ed (or was it 5th?) moved to "true line of sight" which invalidated much of the old terrain which had single trees, large windows, etc, making things a shooting gallery. GW has an absence of LoS blocking terrain, for sale. The solution is as simple as boarding up all (most) of the ground level windows in all of their city ruin kits.

They sell you a large box which doubles up as a LoS blocking terrain with one of the starting kits. It's like you're playing Fantasy with a single house in the middle.

The most bizarre part is, people are successfully selling them on eBay

[Subsided]

I played 2 games with the new codex on Saturday as well. If screens and chaff units are what ails you, a 15 man death company blob with chainswords may be the cure. They put out 30 Bolter shots, then charge in with 4 attacks a piece, hitting on 3s and wounding most screen units on 2. Just multi assualt all of the screens at the same time, and after killing the first line, activate the stratagem to attack again and you can pile-in to the second line and shred that one. With forlorn fury, they can also jump right past scout screens. If you can, deepstrike Lemartes helps with this as well as he gives them reroll charges and hits in combat.

 

In one of my games, they were able to kill ~50 gaunts in one turn. In my other game, they killed 15 ad mech rangers/vanguard then we're able to pile in and tie up another squad of rangers, Cawl and a dunecrawler.

 

Also, I echo what the others here saying. LoS blocking terrain is a must this edition. If you don't have enough at your gaming space, FLG recommends playing with the bottom floor of all ruins counting as LoS blocking.

What is the stratagem to attack again? I'm not seeing that in my stratagem cards.

 

Anyone know?

[Pendent]

I want to say Honor to the Chapter? Should be 3cp.

[Indefragable]

I want to say Honor to the Chapter? Should be 3cp.

Correct. The secret is that it’s wording says at the end of the Fight phase. Guess what you do in the Fight phase? Consolidate.

[Mesi40k]

Honestly I've been running a five man squad of the Assault Bolter Inceptors and they have been flat out amazing in every game I've played so far. Deploy them in cover as far back from the chaff you want to clear as you can. Drop an Ancient and character down behind them. And then blast away any and all chaff units with 30 heavy bolter shots. (possibly rerolling 1s or more depending on your characters) My opponents have had a hard time dealing with them because of target priority I still run strong back field fire support units. And 10 T5 wounds in cover with 5+ FNP is actually pretty durable. Then next turn the Ancient and character are easily able to charge into juicy targets along with the deep striking Sanguinary Guard squad. Not getting left behind due to failing 9 inch charges.. And if necessary you can redeploy the Inceptors or simply move them to mow down some more units. 

[toaae]

 

I want to say Honor to the Chapter? Should be 3cp.

Correct. The secret is that it’s wording says at the end of the Fight phase. Guess what you do in the Fight phase? Consolidate.

You consolidate at the end of a unit's activation, not at the end of the phase.

 

EDIT: I just reread the post, and I'm not sure why I thought it implied that consolidation was an end of phase thing. Ignore me.

Edited December 12, 2017 by toaae

[Indefragable]

 

 

I want to say Honor to the Chapter? Should be 3cp.

Correct. The secret is that it’s wording says at the end of the Fight phase. Guess what you do in the Fight phase? Consolidate.

You consolidate at the end of a unit's activation, not at the end of the phase.

 

EDIT: I just reread the post, and I'm not sure why I thought it implied that consolidation was an end of phase thing. Ignore me.

Pile-in and Consolidate are easy to confuse since they’re kinda the same thing, just happen at different parts of the Fight phase.