DA in 8th - Stratagems, Traits and List Building

[Berzul]

This is just an attempt to make a rundown of our stratagems, warlord traits, and the way they affect the list building for our army. A lot of comments have been going around here and in youtube analysis of the codex, that DW is unplayable again, for instance; and that the codex is subpar. A lot of comments have also been going around that the codex is actually pretty good, and that RW got awesome.

 

So, here is what I figure:

 

1) Stratagems and fixed bonuses: I am assuming here that we conceive stratagems as situational edges we can employ during a battle. Not static or fixed bonuses across the army. No list should depend on stratagems, but rather rely on them to gain the advantage if a certain situation arises.

 

2) Detachments: In general, I tend to make lists of 2 detachments, using a combination of Batallions, Vanguards and Outriders. Mainly the last 2, as the real strength of our codex is in the 1st and 2nd companies. So, I am usually moving around 5 to 7 CP per battle. Attempts at a Brigade always turn sour for me, as we are usually forced to take small tax squads over good units, in order to meet the criteria. With so many drops, too, as bringing transports gets even more difficult, you can bet you will be going second often, and any army can wipe out your 5-man tactical or scout squads easily.

 

So, the question is: Do we need or want those 12cp? Or can we make do with 5 or 7?

 

3) Stratagems: I will try and classify the stratagems in what I think will never get used (either because they are way too expensive, meaning a low payoff to a big cost, or way too situational, forcing you to make your list around the stratagem instead of using the stratagem to bolster the list), what is entirely list specific meaning that you build the list around said stratagem or is just situational enugh for you to get little use out of them in general, and what should turn out to be used often, by most players.

 

(Almost) Never used:

• The Lion and the Wolf. Yeah, fluffy, but you have to spend already valuable list space in bringing the Space Wolves, an apothecary to repair the damage done, and are then left with 2 buffed models. Also, how WILL you bring the Space Wolves? Either spend a whole detachment on them for one single model being buffed, or take an Auxiliary, which means this Stratagem now costs 2 cp instead of 1.
• Inner Circle. Ok, so, yeah, giving a Landraider the Deathwing and the Inner Circle abilities might sound good but (1) you need to bring such an expensive vehicle along; (2) you need to have it near a named character that makes the investment worth your while; (3) that is pretty much all the use you get out of it, because the rest of Inner Circle as a rule does little for these vehicles.
• Stasis Shells. Ok, with Speed of the Raven, Intractable, Weapons from the Dark Age, and Jink, I really don't feel like taking the Grenade Launcher over the Plasma Talon is worth it just for this, as you also need to position yourself in such a way as to be able to target said character to being with. I think that there are better ways to get in mortal wounds or hunt characters than this.
• Relics of the Rock. Simply said, its too expensive. I mean, this seriously would not work for me unless I was in a brigade, Its slicing your CP in half, an although we got good relics, it definetly feels way too expensive for what it does.

Infrequently used:

• Deathwing Assault. I think this is a good stratagem. Specially if it does work as it seems to from the rules, which is that you can drop, shoot, kill a screen of infantry, then drop another squad closer to the enemy. If it does not work this way, I'd move this stratagem to the previous list, as it would become way to expensive.
• Fortress of Shields. Another good one, but only works if you bring knights mostly. So, it is a stratagem that applies to a specific army build. This does not make me want to bring knights more, just to use the stratagem, but is nice to have if I do bring them, which if you pair it with Master of Maneuver or Hunt the Fallen and a well positioned DW squad with Deathwing Assault, can be quite deadly as a combo.
• Hunt the Fallen. Yeah, sounds amazing to get, specially if your opponent has an army that pivots around a specific character and you combo this with Fortress of Shields and Deathwing Assault. But, more often than not, you can get into combat easier with Master of Maneuver, and not all armies will feature that one character you have to kill in close quarters. Still, using this stratagem against a character can get you into combat easier without having to go for Master of Maneuver, which is nice on its own.
• Intractable. This can be used often insted of sparingly, on Ravenwing units, sure. But I put this stratagem here because it is too costly for what it does, I feel. I would most likely fall back normally and make use of my speed to reposition the squad, jinking all the way, attacking then through another squad. Its good, but expensive, that's all.
• Wisdom of the Ancients: Although not one of the DA exclusives, I have to mention this one. I'd probably use it often on my Batallions, as I like grouping a Dread with a Tactical Squad, and this -along with grim resolve- would allow me to spare the Company Master and just move or hold the squads without the need of the character coming along. Still, it's situational, as you won't have Dreads along every time.
• EDIT: Hidden Agenda. A good take on Maelstorm missions for me, but useless outside of them, so I classify it as infrequently used. In spoils of war I'd say this is a must take, as being able to hide stealeable objectives from your opponent would be simply too good to pass up.
• EDIT: Killshot/Linebreaker Bombardment. Althought not DA exclusives, worth the mention, as pointed out. I consider these more situational than flakk missiles, helfire shells and cluster mines, simply because of the points investment in unlocking them. You either build your list around the use of this stratagems, or you leave them aside. I find them powerful, but a lot more situational. I guess this ones would be better suited for a brigade than anything, as you will have to have a 3-slot Heavy Support formation, and even bare boned, 3 predators with this stratagem can cause a lot of damage.

 

Often used

• Speed of the Raven. Simply amazing. Cheap, and deadly. I'd use this any match I brought black knights in, and even with regular bikers.
• Weapons from the Dark Age. Ok, se are the plasma army, and this is an amazing stratagem. Useful on anything. Black Knights, Plasma Tacticals, Plasma Devastators, Plasma Inceptors, Helblasters, you name it. You don't even need to overcharge. I mean, just getting the 2 wounds per shot is enough to make this worth the cost. Combined with Grim Resolve and a Lieutenant, a stationary squad with this stratagem becomes one of the deadliest firing platforms in our army.
• Flakk Missles, Helfire Shells, Cluster Mines: Although not one of the DA exclusives, I have to mention these. Each one is situational, but most likely you will be bringing one of this types of weapons. Either cyclone missile launchers, scouts with heavy bolters, or scout bikes. In each case, this stratagem becomes a great way to get some mortal wounds in.

4) Combinations and frequent uses

 

The stratagems I'd most likely use per game would be:

 

• On batallions with dreads, WotA, along with WftDA, for Plasma Tacticals. A dread, a tactical squad, and a lieutenant, as a basic formation, bolstered through this two stratagems, feels good to me and goes with my play style. Would mean about 1cp per turn, one when moving, one when sitting still.
• On DW, a combination of either the Master of Maneuver trait/Hunt the Fall strat, with Fortress of Shields and DW Assault. I'd set up a squad of terminators and a squad of knights, use the first to drop, clear the way, then drop the second, and charge in. Would mean between 3 to 4 cp for this combo, probably to be used only once to deploy an alpha strike.
• On RW, Speed of the Raven with WftDA. Just put those now cheaper Black Knights to good use, jinking forward across the board and pierce through the enemy lines.

 

Through this basic combinations, I come to the conclussion that the Brigade itself is not needed, unless it is to spam Flakk Missles and Helfire Shells, but desirable to gain extra rerolls and counterattacks, since most combos with stratagems will deplete the stock of a normal army list quickly.

 

As I can see myself most likely using the DW combo once, or the RW pierce move and the Dread advancing gunline twice, each, if I do not plan on relying heavly on flakk, helfire and rerolls, I could totaly make do with this 5 to 7 cps in a game, though.

 

Tri Wings are going to be hard to make, since in a Brigade you will not have room for good DW units. So, I think that the stratagems will be best suited for Dual Wing armies. Either a greenwing gunline holding its ground while the DW or RW advance, or a 2 hit combo of Ravenwing and Deathwing to crush the enmy swiftly.

 

5) Warlord traits.

 

From all the traits, I guess Courage of the First Legion, Stubborn Tenacity, and Fury of the Lion will be the ones I use the least. Fury is good, but Huntsman and Master of Maneuver are better for my playstyle. Tenactiy is also good, but I tend to ahve my warlord close to the enemy so holding still is not an option for me, which means that this trait is partially lost on me.

 

But, at the end, since I have come to the conclussion that lists will most likely be having between 5 to 7 cp, Brilliant Strategist becomes almost an auto take. The decision here would be on how to set up my DW alpha strike. Do I go for Hunt the Fallen a stratagem to get the charges? or do I take the trait instead? Hard to say. Will depend on the opponent, I guess.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Berzul

[Helycon]

You completely forgot Hidden Agenda, which is incredibly good in Maelstrom games. Since your opponent has no idea what you're trying to do, they have no idea what to stop and what to let go. You can dummy a bunch of bikes left when your objective is right, where that small scout squad remains defending it. Are you actively trying to go for the warlord, or are you assassinating? It's great and cheap.

[Berzul]

I should calrify, I put the Landraider stratagem i the bottom list, because as situational as it is when compaired to say, Helfire Shells, or WotA, Landraiders are harder to fit in a Brigade or general lists than a Dreadnought or mass heavy bolters. But, of course, this is not true to all players. I mainly did this rough analysis based on my play style.

You completely forgot Hidden Agenda, which is incredibly good in Maelstrom games. Since your opponent has no idea what you're trying to do, they have no idea what to stop and what to let go. You can dummy a bunch of bikes left when your objective is right, where that small scout squad remains defending it. Are you actively trying to go for the warlord, or are you assassinating? It's great and cheap.

 

Indeed, I left it out. My apologies.

 

I would put it in the middle list, as not all games are Maelstrom, but when on a Maelstrom mission, yeah, I'd probably always use it. SPecially for spoils of war. That way my opponent cannot know which Secure Objective of Defend Objective cards I have, and I have only a minor risk of them taking them from me.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Berzul

[Helycon]

No apology needed, I was just amused by the fact, since it's one that screams 'Dark Angels'

 

I agree with most of your list, but would like to add killshot. It's also a big one, that can ruin your opponents day. It's taxing, but can work well when you have a Master or Azrael nearby.

[Berzul]

No apology needed, I was just amused by the fact, since it's one that screams 'Dark Angels'

 

I agree with most of your list, but would like to add killshot. It's also a big one, that can ruin your opponents day. It's taxing, but can work well when you have a Master or Azrael nearby.

 

Yeah, I tried not to get into the generic stratagems. I made the exception with a couple, but the thing about Killshot is that it requires you commit a large parte of your list to it. Is the kind of stratagem that doesnt help the army, but rather the kind of stratagem that you build the army for. Which is not what I feel is my approach to list building. Again, it is cheap and powerful, but how often do you really bring 3 predators? And how much room does that leave you for other more DA-ish units?

 

I would emply this if I went, for instance, with a Spearhead as a support, for a Vanguard of DW or an Outrider of RW. Keep 3 tanks back with a lieutenant and maybe a techmarine, while the army strikes? Can work pretty good. So yeah, in that sense, I think Kill shot is a good stratagem

[Lord_Ikka]

I can see the Wolf and the Lion stratagem being really useful when the Wolves get their codex. It is situational though- I view it as a stratagem that you use when you are making a combined DA/SW force. Having a Greenwing spearhead or battalion detachment backing up a Wolves vanguard/outrider detachment could be a potent combo. Not a horrible plan to have the melee-oriented Wolves use DA long-range to cover for them. I do think it still deserves to be in the almost never used list, but could be quite a decent bonus for those players looking for a unique army.

[dtse]

Having a featured stratagem that relies on allying in another faction is simply ridiculous tbh. I’m sorry. Yea it’s fluffy but form a game-play point of view it really is stupid.

[Kilofix]

Whats Hidden Agenda, Courage of the First Legion and Fury of the Lion? Thanks!

[Berzul]

Hidden Agenda allows you to play with objective cards hidden from your enemy.

 

Courage of the First Legion is a Warlord Trait that makes units within 6 inches of the warlord immune to morale effects. Which is pretty useless, since you have Grim Resolve and ATSNKF an all Greenwing and Ravenwing, and Inner Circle on the Deathwing.

 

Fury of the Lion is a Warlord Trait that gives you +1 Strength to all units within 6 inches of your warlord if he has charged this turn.

[HsojVvad]

Saw this link on Dakka. I wonder if this will help part of the discussion since I don't play 40K very well, maybe this can help with the discussion with either we agree or disagree. :)

 

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/12/10/dark-angels-codex-review-part-1-stratagems-warlord-traits-relics-and-psychic-powers/

[Darkwrath121]

Fury of the Lion is a Warlord Trait that gives you +1 Strength to all units within 6 inches of your warlord if he has charged this turn.

Not only is it if the character charges, it is also of they are charged or heroically intervene. Which makes it a bit more useful in my opinion :)

[Berzul]

Saw this link on Dakka. I wonder if this will help part of the discussion since I don't play 40K very well, maybe this can help with the discussion with either we agree or disagree.

 

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/12/10/dark-angels-codex-review-part-1-stratagems-warlord-traits-relics-and-psychic-powers/

 

While I don't entirely agree on each point, it is a very good classification of the stratagems we got. I like it. Thanks for the link!

[Zectz]

Can't Deathwing Assault be used to clear some room before bringing down another terminator unit in the same phase?

 

As in, if you want to bring in 1 terminator squad and 1 Deathwing knights in the same movement phase, you bring in the terminator squad first and the extra shooting attack triggers immediately. Clearing a unit for you to then bring in the Deathwing knights in a closer/better position to get a charge off on an important unit, after clearing some chaff.

[RayJ]

It can definitely be used that way, but depending on enemy unit resilience and size, you might not be able to clear enough room.

[Berzul]

Depends on the screen you face. Most people will use large blobs of very light and cheap infanteynfor wrapping. Some use small infiltrating squads to try and go for the largest are denial possible.

 

Against the first, you would need a large squad f terminators. 10, preferably. Dealing 40 storm bolter shots, to at least reduce the space they take.

 

Against the second, a 5-man squad could be enough. Could be.

[march10k]

Depends on the screen you face. Most people will use large blobs of very light and cheap infanteynfor wrapping. Some use small infiltrating squads to try and go for the largest are denial possible.

 

Against the first, you would need a large squad f terminators. 10, preferably. Dealing 40 storm bolter shots, to at least reduce the space they take.

 

Against the second, a 5-man squad could be enough. Could be.

 

That's why I prefer a crusader rush.  It doesn't really care about bubble wrap, and it has soooo much dakka that you don't want tactical terminators, just assaulty ones.

[Lion El Jason]

 

Depends on the screen you face. Most people will use large blobs of very light and cheap infanteynfor wrapping. Some use small infiltrating squads to try and go for the largest are denial possible.

 

Against the first, you would need a large squad f terminators. 10, preferably. Dealing 40 storm bolter shots, to at least reduce the space they take.

 

Against the second, a 5-man squad could be enough. Could be.

 

That's why I prefer a crusader rush.  It doesn't really care about bubble wrap, and it has soooo much dakka that you don't want tactical terminators, just assaulty ones.

 

 

Just a shame how Land Raiders just evaporate this edition...

[Berzul]

 

 

 

 

Depends on the screen you face. Most people will use large blobs of very light and cheap infanteynfor wrapping. Some use small infiltrating squads to try and go for the largest are denial possible.

 

Against the first, you would need a large squad f terminators. 10, preferably. Dealing 40 storm bolter shots, to at least reduce the space they take.

 

Against the second, a 5-man squad could be enough. Could be.

That's why I prefer a crusader rush. It doesn't really care about bubble wrap, and it has soooo much dakka that you don't want tactical terminators, just assaulty ones.

Just a shame how Land Raiders just evaporate this edition...

I punched one to death with Chainswords the other day... well, my DW did the heavy lifting, but my chainsword bikers finished the job!

[march10k]

That hasn't been my experience.  Well...I saw one game where a guy took just one.  That didn't end well.  But two of them with a darkshroud in support has been pretty effective in my meta.  Even the Girlyman Hellblaster gunline couldn't kill them fast enough to prevent dumping melee termies into the line in one memorable game, and once the termies got there, it was over.  It didn't matter that both crusaders died.  Chop chop!  Knights, thundernators, and champion piling into separate units, with the ancient hanging around to hand out free attacks.

 

I've heard of lasguns stripping the last wound, but it's not really accurate to say that the land raider was killed by lasguns when the real work was done with lascannons. 

 

/edit/  It was even nastier with Azrael and the DS making the crusaders unkillable, but only one particularly unfriendly guy ran that combo, and that's got about one week of shelf life left!

Edited December 11, 2017 by march10k

[Kasper_Hawser]

If you want to go through the Lion and the Wolf Strategem, the cheapest I can think of is an Outrider detachment, let's you take any Wolf Character, best combat character being a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf, then 2-3 single Cyberwolves at 15 points each. Less than 200 points.

 

Actually Land Raiders ARE much more resilient, they no longer "evaporate" as one poster claims. 5 Lascannons at a single Rhino on average doesn't kill it outright, let alone a Land Raider.

 

Your relics of the Rock are actually quite good, especially that super Storm bolter and Mace of Redemption. I don't think you are worse for wear really.

[Orkinstein]

Saw this link on Dakka. I wonder if this will help part of the discussion since I don't play 40K very well, maybe this can help with the discussion with either we agree or disagree.

 

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/12/10/dark-angels-codex-review-part-1-stratagems-warlord-traits-relics-and-psychic-powers/

 

Just saw a comment on this page that Deathwing Assault and Darktalon bomb maybe a good combo allow you to clean bubble in moving phase. So your DWK can DS closer to high value targets.   

[Berzul]

If you want to go through the Lion and the Wolf Strategem, the cheapest I can think of is an Outrider detachment, let's you take any Wolf Character, best combat character being a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf, then 2-3 single Cyberwolves at 15 points each. Less than 200 points.

 

Actually Land Raiders ARE much more resilient, they no longer "evaporate" as one poster claims. 5 Lascannons at a single Rhino on average doesn't kill it outright, let alone a Land Raider.

 

Your relics of the Rock are actually quite good, especially that super Storm bolter and Mace of Redemption. I don't think you are worse for wear really.

 

I think the stratagem is limited to infantry. Does the Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf count as Infantry?

[Kasper_Hawser]

Nope, no longer infantry. If that is the case, then can still put him on a Jump pack for better speed. Or just simply on foot, give him a squad of Blood Claws in Rhino, and call it a day. For all intents and purposes, he is a Captain/company master anyway with slightly better wargear (frost weaponry).

[march10k]

 

Just saw a comment on this page that Deathwing Assault and Darktalon bomb maybe a good combo allow you to clean bubble in moving phase. So your DWK can DS closer to high value targets.   

 

 

 

Hmmm....hadn't considered the stasis bomb for this.  I guess technically, it's true, because it puts wounds on in the movement phase, but since it only kills half of the chaff unit and the other player gets to pick which models to remove...I don't see it working often. Maybe if you really really need that hole punched for the DWK to rush in and kill bobby gee on the top of turn one, you drop the bomb first to strip 5 wounds, then DWA with ten shooters to finish the job...maybe.

[Madmonkeyman]

If you really want to clear screens in the movement phase then a bunch of sisters of battle with heavy bolters is the way forward with a bunch of the characters to give extra acts of faith. Act of faith at the start of the turn on 4units to clear units Then drop the deathwing. More for competitive play but it really works. Grey knight player used it against me - I was impressed. Obviously not for people running pure DA.