DA in 8th - Stratagems, Traits and List Building

[G8Keeper]

I really think we should be using something else to clear the trash, possibly Ravenwing which synergises quite well. That way we use the DW double tap on something dangerous, weakening it before charging in and applying the coup de grace.

 

I was toying with a DW drop with a Libby and belial. The libby provides the mortal wound goodness with belial giving the all important re-rolls.

[breng77]

The problem with that is the weapons available to deathwing  You have storm bolters +

 

1.) Heavy flamer - of no use on the drop

2.) Plasma cannon- meh, you will end up with on average 8 plasma shots, that you won't want to overcharge due to -1 to hit.

3.) Assault cannon - decent but -1 to hit hurts it a bit.  This still makes infantry your desired target

4.) Cyclone - expensive but maybe ok against a tough target. -1 to hit still hurts, but 8 missiles if you have re-rolls is pretty decent, + 80 bolter shots.

 

The issue is that unless you are waiting until turn 2 or later for the drop is that the chaff will keep you back from any prime targets.  _1 to hit factions will be a problem unless they are the closest unit to you.

 

The overall issue is that the charge is unreliable, and your guns are primarily anti-infantry weapons.  If our terminators could bring say combi-plasma this would be an amazing stratagem, but without that kind of fire power it is very expensive for a bunch of storm bolter fire.

[breng77]

I mean if we are just looking at shooting 10 Inceptors with bolters is about the same price as those 10 terminators with heavy weapons (cheaper if ML are taken).  They lack the assault punch but are shooting 60 S5 Ap-1 shots, not use CP, can deploy out of range of most intercept stratagems (not eldar), and does close to the same damage. 

[G8Keeper]

They aren't meant to shoot units off the board though. You almost have to run characters with DW to get the most of them or not bother at all. The points above are all valid however, belial gives you re-rolls to those 4+ to hit, making the librarian your Warlord gives rerolls to charges (Warlord trait), an ancient gives +1 attack. Yes its a lot of points but you're looking to weaken a powerful hint before the charge, they do have power fists remember, once again rerolling misses.

 

It will certainly be fun to try

[Helycon]

While I enjoy what they're trying to do with the stratagem, it feel like it's WAY too much CP's spent on something relatively simple.

 

Also, I'm not sure if people are taking it into account, but Fortress of Shields only counts in the fight phase, which is not as useful as it could and should have been. I would have preferred it to be for the entire round. Doesn't locking shields prevent enemies from shooting past them either? Pretty sure that how it worked in the days of the Romans when the enemy rained arrows.

 

Still, DW points and Stratagems are too high for their worth as it stands, which is a shame. Hopefully, they get adjusted. There are only so many CP's in a game, and a lot of stratagens are a LOT better.

[G8Keeper]

Still, DW points and Stratagems are too high for their worth as it stands, which is a shame. Hopefully, they get adjusted. There are only so many CP's in a game, and a lot of stratagens are a LOT better.

Can't argue with you there. Maybe if enough of us email in it'll be in the forthcoming Faq.

[breng77]

@G8Keeper,

 

The issue is if you shoot what you are trying to charge you risk making the charge longer, and even with a re-roll (I also play orks) you are only looking at about a 50-50 shot at 9", if you go to 10 or 11" you are really stretching.  Then you are trying to get your ancient to make the charge, or you are losing attacks to chaining back to him, and belial, and the libby maybe.  Not something terminators are particularly great at.  It is also key to remember that 3s auto fail on the 4+ to hit even with re-rolls.  But 10 DW, +Belial + Ancient + (terminator?) libby is minimum what ~750 -800 points?  3 CP to shoot, then hoping for a 50% chance to pull off a charge.  That is a huge investment of points and CP.  Requires an exposed key unit to be at all close to worth it.  Which means you are probably waiting until at least turn 2 to drop all those points onto the table.  So playing with half an army for a turn.  I really want to like the DW stratagem, I just think it needed to be 1/2 CP not 2/3 CP.

[FerociousBeast]

I think DWA as a stratagem should be focused around the shooting. Throwing more and more models and CPs at that big 10-man unit you just plonked down in hopes of getting a charge off is a recipe for at worst failure and at best significantly diminishing returns. However, if you plan to use DWA to take advantage of the double shooting, and leave all the long charge shenanigans at home or in your CP bank, I think you'll get better results.

 

So I'd go with a 10-man unit of dedicated dakka Terminators, and leave the Thundernators for another squad.

[depthcharge12]

I think I tend to forget about the objectives in game so I’d like to point out that DWA can be used to clear chaff off objectives, gain a victory point for a drawn card, force morale checks, or expose a character to be shot by another unit!

 

Again, seems like a lot of points and CPs to use, but if you get a victory from it, does it matter? I think we (and I am projecting this knowing full well that I do it all too often) get too caught up in trying to wipe our opponent rather than playing the objectives. I had a 30k game where I absolutely murderlated my opponent’s blood angels with Horus and his 5 favorite buddies, only to lose because a couple of scout squads grabbed all the objectives.

 

I’m no tournie player by any means, but once you stop playing kill points and play against other tournie guys, your eyes open up to how strategies can be used to manipulate table wipers. You won’t feel good losing 90% of your force but you will still win the game.

[RayJ]

Having used it in 2 games, I can say Deathwing Assault feels overcosted, but it's still good in the right situation. FerociousBeast is right that the unit should be focused on shooting. I ran a 10-man squad with 2 cyclones. It didn't do much in the first game due to poor targeting decisions on my part. I did a lot in the second game, but I likely could have had better use out of those CP in my other squads.

 

I want to try it with cataphractii terminators still. I'll save points on the missiles at least, so there's stuff to toy around with.

[depthcharge12]

Having used it in 2 games, I can say Deathwing Assault feels overcosted, but it's still good in the right situation. FerociousBeast is right that the unit should be focused on shooting. I ran a 10-man squad with 2 cyclones. It didn't do much in the first game due to poor targeting decisions on my part. I did a lot in the second game, but I likely could have had better use out of those CP in my other squads.

 

I want to try it with cataphractii terminators still. I'll save points on the missiles at least, so there's stuff to toy around with.

See I’m curious - I don’t know if you use a terminator librarian too - but since DWA goes after deployment, if that would be a good way to expose a character to smite?

 

Roll up, give some cultists/CSM the gat, and then shoot some warp lightning into a daemon prince and cast aversion and call it a day!

[RayJ]

in my second game, I used DWA to clear a screening unit (and damage a tank), and then killed the enemy warlord in shooting with half the squad's bolter fire in the shooting phase. Opening up to smite is fine too. Just remember to drop Belial first for your rerolls :)

[G8Keeper]

@breng77

 

Very true. I think I just can't get past paying the points and them only being effective in one phase. Then again, DWK are in the same pot so to speak.

 

Perhaps getting that charge off is just icing on the cake as mentioned. If it happens great, if not you've hopefully dropped somewhere safe, but still have a reasonable chance of doing damage.

[Angel of Solitude]

Apologies for moving this slightly away from the DWA discussions, but what are people's views on an anti-vehicle strategy? You can easily bring a lot of plasma to the table, but it's a bit more difficult bringing the traditional tank busters (Lascannon, melta) into the mix. A Land Raider gives you some formidable fire power, but I can't help but think it's a bit pricey and relatively inflexible. 

[breng77]

I mean plasma does the job pretty well, but Mortis Dreads, or Lascannon Devs should both work very well with Grim Resolve.  It isn't any more difficult to bring these types of things in DA than any other marine list.  Melta could easily go on bike squads if you wanted to use it, but it really isn't worth the points in this edition.

[depthcharge12]

Apologies for moving this slightly away from the DWA discussions, but what are people's views on an anti-vehicle strategy? You can easily bring a lot of plasma to the table, but it's a bit more difficult bringing the traditional tank busters (Lascannon, melta) into the mix. A Land Raider gives you some formidable fire power, but I can't help but think it's a bit pricey and relatively inflexible.

Umm at the risk of sounding vitriolic, THE HELL DONT YOU HAVE HELLBLASTERS?!?!11one!

[SnakeChisler]

Hell blasters you say did I hear Hellblaster's mentioned?

 

You can take the heavy plasma incinerator for S9 overcharge but the rapid fire version appears to give the most flexibility, a lot of the -1 to hit buffs don't work within 12".

 

As far as I can tell from reading it the bike stratagem counts as just moving so you still juice the plasma on the bikes which makes the Melta gun squads I used to run back in 6th a tasty option. Move 20" hit on 3's daisy chain back for the re-rolls & ignores cover for the boltguns.

 

Problem with a lot of this is your burning through stratagems at a vast rate, your going to need at least a battalions worth

[RayJ]

I will second the use of Mortis Dreadnoughts for Lascannons. I've been running 2 in almost every game. Super good.

[Angel of Solitude]

 

Apologies for moving this slightly away from the DWA discussions, but what are people's views on an anti-vehicle strategy? You can easily bring a lot of plasma to the table, but it's a bit more difficult bringing the traditional tank busters (Lascannon, melta) into the mix. A Land Raider gives you some formidable fire power, but I can't help but think it's a bit pricey and relatively inflexible.

Umm at the risk of sounding vitriolic, THE HELL DONT YOU HAVE HELLBLASTERS?!?!11one!

 

*sobs* because my wallet won't let me 

 

Seriously, it's a consideration for my army, but I've already got plenty of Ravenwing-based plasma so more plasma might not be the answer. Another dreadnought may instead be the answer I'm looking for.