Data link telemetry

[Madmonkeyman]

So the space marine have a stratagem that lets whirlwinds autohit if they are within 12 of a landspeeder. Would this only be for codex whirlwinds or could I use the FW ones as they have the whirlwind key word

[Mr. Shine]

The reference to Whirlwind is not formatted as a KEYWORD reference, so it would apply only to the datasheet/model named Whirlwind (i.e. the regular, codex version). You could however use any Land Speeder with the LAND SPEEDER keyword, as that reference is indeed formatted as a keyword.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Mr. Shine

[TheWolfLord]

Annoyingly Forge World advertises a bundle with 2 Whirlwind Scorpius and a Javelin and say they can use the Data Link Telemetry Stratagem.

 

I'm not suggesting it can be used as proof but I'd be pretty upset if I bought that bundle only to find I couldn't use the Scorpius with the Stratagem afterall

[Madmonkeyman]

Just saw that on FW website. Will emai them to clarify. But as written I think it was only meant for codex whirlwinds

[TheWolfLord]

Just saw that on FW website. Will emai them to clarify. But as written I think it was only meant for codex whirlwinds

RAW it's clear. However, I've also seen this question on either the FW or GW Facebook page and they did say the Whirlwind Scorpius could be used but the wording on the Stratagem doesn't support that.

 

An auto hitting Scorpius is a bit much to be honest. 6D3 S6 ap-2 D2 auto hitting shots, ouch.

[Eddie Orlock]

The reference to Whirlwind is not formatted as a KEYWORD reference, ...

I recall prior instances where it seemed that the change in formatting to flag for a key word was applied inconsistently. While the keywords definition on pg 175 is formatted consistently, there's no explicit reference to the change in formatting being mandatory.

 

Not that this is actually evidence, but this is at least the second time this specific question has been raised.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/337814-keywords-and-the-datalink-telemetrylinebreaker-stratagems/?hl=%2Bwhirlwind&do=findComment&comment=4849481

 

Some specific contrary cases can be found in the 'Flakk Missile' stratagem in the same book where the key word references to both 'Infantry' and 'Fly' are not formatted consistently with the reference to 'ADEPTUS ASTARTES', but the game rules define both Infantry and Fly as keywords just the same.

 

Unless the intent is to argue based on the formatting that Flakk Missile use requires a Marine datasheet actually named 'Infantry' and only works on a heretofore unknown datasheet named 'Fly'?

[Mr. Shine]

I don't think Flakk Missiles is quite the same, given it's obvious there is no 'Infantry' or 'Fly' datasheet or model name, and more importantly the words 'Infantry' and 'Fly' actually share some differentiating formatting from the rest of the body of the text and with the KEYWORDS (being that they are at least in bold).

No such formatting difference is evident here, and to argue that we are entitled to assume an ordinarily-formatted word might be a keyword would suggest that for example Sergeant Chronus could be added to a Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer, or a Land Raider Achilles et cetera.

It's evidence for Games Workshop writing imperfect rules and pure RAW not being a proper way to play the game for the sake of things always working sensibly, but I don't think it's evidence to reliably support that 'Whirlwind' should be treated as a keyword here.

 

The Forgeworld bundle obviously is more difficult, though I'd also rely on the fact they've historically been more loose with rules interactions involving Forgeworld products in the past. I'd certainly not disallow someone who's bought the models from using them in that way given the bundle's existence, but I'd still say they've not written the rules to properly reflect it should be allowed.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Mr. Shine

[Eddie Orlock]

... to argue that we are entitled to assume an ordinarily-formatted word might be a keyword would suggest that for example Sergeant Chronus could be added to a Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer, or a Land Raider Achilles et cetera. ...

I'd like to point out here, that of the list of vehicles that Chronus can commandeer, all of them have their datasheet name as a listed keyword, which means that reading it as a list of keywords doesn't actually break anything from a mechanical stand point. It does make the listing of 'Land Raider Redeemer' and 'Land Raider Crusader' redundant, but redundancy isn't without precedent in citadel rules sets.

 

Actually, most units have their name as a listed keyword, which means that most interactions work just as well reading them as keyword calls rather than nominative calls. From a flavour stand point, I wouldn't find mounting Chronus in an Achilles or a Deimos Destroyer nonsensical, but this likely wanders off into some disputable rules territory.

 

Speaking of Chronus though, there's probably better evidence self contained within his sheet that undifferentiated listings are references to names in that he bucks the trend of datasheet names appearing as keywords and that his uniqueness rule makes specific reference to 'Sergeant Chronus' while his keyword line only defines him as 'CHRONUS'. Unless we argue that the word 'Sergeant' is just colour text. This is mildly unusual when compared to how a similar concept is implemented for Tycho, Sammeal, and Ko'sarro Khan in index Imperium One

... The Forgeworld bundle obviously is more difficult, though I'd also rely on the fact they've historically been more loose with rules interactions involving Forgeworld products in the past. ...

Yeah. That it's a separate studio shows in the jagged edge cases like this. I suspect that the original editor in the studio left the reference to whirlwind in plain text as there's only one whirlwind in the codex and they myopically bound their review to that without future proofing, whereas the forgeworld counter part based their collation on the implication that I make above about names also appearing as keywords and interpreted it as I interpreted it previously.

 

So, the case being not particularly reliable in either direction is probably where it rests.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'd personally allow it, because it seems to be a case of RAI, and also that it also strongly resembles the old rules argument that a Daemon Prince wasn't a Daemon because he didn't have a specific rule declaring him as such.

[Madmonkeyman]

Did ask FW about this a while back, they said it wasn't allowed with the other whirlwind variants. Even though they sell them as a package !!!

[Claws and Effect]

Is it allowed with a Land Speeder Tempest and a normal Whirlwind?

[Medicinal Carrots]

Unlike Whirlwind, <B>LAND SPEEDER</B> is a keyword on the Stratagem, so it should work for any variety of Land Speeder. Standard, Storm, Tempest, and Javelin all qualify.