Ratios Heresy-Era Armor in circulation for SWs

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I really like the plastic Heresy-Era armor thats been released from BaC and BoP and I think it makes SWs look infinitely better than their current overly wulfy look. It makes sense to me that the Armor of iconic or renown SWs would be past down to the SWs that become Wolf Guard and Lords. That said, how much Heresy-Era armor do you think the SWs would have in their inventories? Considering how Horus orchestrated the deliveries of MkIV to the traitor legions I imagine the SWs would have plenty of MkII and III and that those units would still be available in the 41st. I don't know if there is any fluff to back this up but I'm also imagining the SWs would have had plenty of Marines MkV "piecemeal" armor similarly to the World Eaters. 

Anybody have any feedback/done any research on this?

[MaveriK]

There was a time when in the rulebooks our codex had "mixed armor" fluff-wise, our wolves had lots of beaky marine armor in their inventory. If you want to use MKIII or Heresy era armor then do so! Plenty of leg room to justify such actions from Lost Companies also this...

 

 

Well, technically speaking, in the world of 40k, Older is better. The Main Reason Mk II and by Extension Mk III which was Mk II with Ablative Front Plates, was that maintaining the Hooped Armor was difficult and intensive even for the Techmarines of 30k who lived in a period of Technological innovation.

 

As to fluff, you could reason it as the Chapter having a Store of 10-20 Suits of the old Relic Armor and, due to some disaster, had to equip a few of their marines in it since they have no other alternative suits for them to use.

 

There is, in C:SM, Artwork of 40k Sallies with a few of them Having Mk II/III Armor either in their entirety or in pieces. In the same Vein, The Salamanders: DO NOT READ IF YOU WANT TO READ THE SALLIES OMNIBUS

Found an Old Crusade-Era ship that had crash landed on a Planet they were going to explore for Signs of an Artifact of Vulkan. Within, they found a single 10k Year old Marine in Suspended Animation and a fair number of (what can only be assumed as) Mk II and Mk III Suits.

 

if you can justify your Chapter having something similar to the above spoiler happening to them, then go for it.

 

Not to mention Minotaur Space Marines have extensive stocks of Mk VIII and void-modified Mk III

[Jarl of Wulfen]

I have recently used all mk III and mk IV to redo my wolves. I play them as 13th company so that's their reason for having older war gear

[Lord_Caerolion]

As others have mentioned, the Mechanicus tends to see technology as "the older the better" (although power armour actually goes against this, with each mark being more advanced than the one before it, arguably other than the MkV). You've also got the added upside of the fact that for the Space Marines, these ancient suits are literally part of their myths and legends. That MkIII armour would have been worn by a Space Wolf in the time of Russ himself, if not actually having fought alongside him, or even the Emperor Himself. Maintaining these relics is almost religiously important to them, a sacred link to the glory of the Great Crusade, and the lessons of the Horus Heresy.

 

What better way for a Wolf Lord to meditate on the virtues of Wisdom than to focus on the ancient helmet of his armour, a helmet that witnessed the Burning of Prospero? They aren't just pieces of armour, they're literally holy relics continuing an ancient legacy of victory in the name of the Emperor.

 

In other words, go for it. :p

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Another thing I am curious about is at what point in time between the HH to our current period in the fluff would the SWs have suffered major losses that would see them lacking in relic pieces of Armor in the modern times? I know that now SWs are considered one of the larger chapters since they are not codex compliant, so eventually their numbers grew. I guess it also depends on which bit of fluff you subscribe to because the new(er)/inferno fluff seems to imply SWs suffered extreme losses at Prospero. Surely they would have been resupplied with either MkII/III or would have utilized whatever was available, thus effectively being equiped with MkV. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

They've always been a fairly active Chapter, there's nothing that immediately jumps out to me as an event in which they'd take massive losses to materiel. I would also say that any armour pieces that can be retrieved would be repaired by the Iron Priests wherever possible, so there's not going to be too much loss of armour.

[Guest]

You could always do a fluff piece stating why you have so many of a certain mk armor. Mine is that we acquired is from a ancient SW ship from a Space Hulk, that contained an armory of Heresy Era armor kept in near perfect condition. 

[Rockythedog]

I’m going to build my company around a HH era wolf lord, a brother who was lost but came back for the possible wolf time. The stories of his deeds came with him and his fellow lost brothers, and he became a wolf Lord (I’m looking at Geiger Fell-Hand model for him). And then I’m going to mix in a few HH era grey hunters or long fangs, that will give me a bit of leeway with a colour scheme too Edited December 11, 2017 by Rockythedog

[Karhedron]

Arguably Wolves would have a better excuse than anyone else for having older Marks of armour since they are a 1st founding Chapter and also never split to create successor chapters. This means their supply of ancient relics was never diluted by be spread around successor chapters.

 

Create whatever fluff justification you like as to why it has been brought into use in your army. Maybe your GC never stopped using it and the WL issued venerable suits as a badge of honour to squads that performed particularly heroic deeds.

[DanPesci]

am currently rebuilding all my wolves to look mch more heresy era..nearly all of them will be in mkIII as i feel it just looks super tough/gritty which is how i want my guys to be.

 

Fluff wise they are going to be some sort of fleet-based lost company, , with mechanicum support (as I also have an admech army)..and those mech guys just love fixing heresy era armour :)

[clanfield]

I mix and match armour I figure the wolves don't give a damn about the look as long as it works mk 3 for example looks great on assault troops mix in some mk4 and wolf sprue bits and any spare I have from other kits makes then look very cool and less regimented and more veteran

[Bloody Legionnaire]

You could always do a fluff piece stating why you have so many of a certain mk armor. Mine is that we acquired is from a ancient SW ship from a Space Hulk, that contained an armory of Heresy Era armor kept in near perfect condition. 

Speaking of that, my own "fluff piece" would be that the SWs have plenty of MkII and III left over in the Fang... I just didn't know if there was actual fluff to support that. I can see Blood Claws having newer marks of armor but as they become more senior and move up the ranks to Grey Hunters or WG they would have the venerable marks of armor passed down to them. 

 

I believe Fenris has always been a little bit different, right? It is so far out the SWs have to do a lot more to be self-sufficient. I always thought they would have the means to maintain some of the relics from the HH because they have always needed to have that ability. I didn't think that would have changed much in the 41st. 

[PeteySödes]

 

You could always do a fluff piece stating why you have so many of a certain mk armor. Mine is that we acquired is from a ancient SW ship from a Space Hulk, that contained an armory of Heresy Era armor kept in near perfect condition. 

Speaking of that, my own "fluff piece" would be that the SWs have plenty of MkII and III left over in the Fang... I just didn't know if there was actual fluff to support that. I can see Blood Claws having newer marks of armor but as they become more senior and move up the ranks to Grey Hunters or WG they would have the venerable marks of armor passed down to them. 

 

I believe Fenris has always been a little bit different, right? It is so far out the SWs have to do a lot more to be self-sufficient. I always thought they would have the means to maintain some of the relics from the HH because they have always needed to have that ability. I didn't think that would have changed much in the 41st. 

 

 

Thats totally how i model my infantry! Blood claws don't have many totems etc but Wolf Guard and Long Fangs get the spoils. I think for a Chapter so steeped in tradition and saga/ancestry its super appropriate.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

According to Inferno, the Aett was the first of the Legion fortresses to be near self sufficient

 

They lacked Star ships and the more exotic weapons, but was fully capable of recruiting, astartes-ing, and arming a Legion.

 

I’ve no doubt that capability has drastically been reduced, but the means to maintain suits of armor and such is present

[Kinstryfe]

I do believe older marks of armour are still able to be manufactured, but that they are simply a combination of being harder/slower to make in some ways as production of parts became less available, and rarer because the bulk of production facilities would have adapted to make newer marks as they became widespread. The same way that TDA is still manufactured, albeit very slowly, and mostly in Indomitus pattern.

I see most modern Astartes as outfitted in one of three ways:

1. Brand New Armour, having not earned the right to wear custom or legacy pieces. Could be theoretically MkII,III,IV,VI,VII,VIII. Would be an entirely or mostly matching suit, with possibility for the power pack to be whatever power source was available. This allows you to field any Astartes in pure, older armor marks, as it could simply be a new suit in an old mark, or recovered, or any number of reasons.

2. Hand-Me-Down Armour, being composed of one or more repairs to older suits and being utilized because it is available and functioning. The big drawing of the Ultramarines Second Company tends to look like this, as would I imagine the bulk of M41 Marines. Armour pieces are mixed and matched due to function and necessity, giving a mashup of Mks II-VIII. The traditional tactical marine kits tend to be in this style, while allowing you to be more discerning and create some full marks if desired.

3. Legacy/Honour Armour, wherein some armor piece or even full suits are awarded to especially deserving individuals and passed down with a history. Things like the Fell-Hand, helms that witnessed great battles, or even the World Eaters claiming blue and white Preheresy armor as a mark of honor. Much of this armour is likely to have been artificed and embellished in some way, and I believe would seldom just look like a pair of bracers or a stock MkIII helmet.

[OgreOnAStick]

The Eigth was equipped primarily with MkIV power armour, the advanced augur array incorporated into that design proving beneficial to their role as advanced scouts and skirmishers, but even this newer armour had soon found itself remade in the image of the Legion. The suit worn by Legionary Hruga was brought into service less than ten years before the fighting on Prospero, assigned to the VIth Legion from a macro-cache manufactured on Anvillus and shipped to the distribution yards at Beta-Garmon.

Despite its relatively short operation lifespan, it has already undergone significant modification, most notably the entire right pauldron has been replaced with a reinforced MkIII pauldron, a common field augmentation of the lighter MkIV suits. Additionally, Hruga has engraved several knotwork patterns across the chest and greaves. Though the exact meaning of these patterns is difficult to ascertain, they are likely warding talismans against harm.

 

 

From the above (HH - Inferno pg. 85) we can draw the following conclusions: At least one Great Company was fully equipped with MkIV and they really like kitbashing and customizing their armour.

This would mean that full sets of purely of a single mark without customization would be a rarity.

 

And considering the large amounts of Dreadnoughts the chapter possesses, it wouldn't really surprise me if they weren't averse to looting and scavenging gear from fallen enemies and friends for that matter. Especially during long expeditions and Great Hunts. It would certainly fit into the viking theme, that is getting slowly wolfed out of existence.

As a sidenote: Does anyone know what happened to the armories on Prospero? Wouldn't really be too far fetched that the Fenrisians sacked them on their way out.

 

Then there is the factor that the priesthood on Fenris don't feel too beholden to strictly follow the doctrine set by Mechanicus, so they might just slap together a suit of armour from whatever they feel suits the role of the wearer, although practicality seems to be their main goal, they aren't averse to create armour with symbolical significance.

Note: If I recall correctly, the lore for this lies in Deathwatch lore bits, so it might be conflicting with primary sources dealing with the Folk of Fenris.

Edited December 12, 2017 by OgreOnAStick

[Closet Skeleton]

Logically no 30k armour should have lasted 10,000 years because it was already getting worn out in the Great Crusade. The ridiculous timescale of the 40k universe makes most of its elements ridiculous in turn. Breaking out ancient relics sounds like a neat idea but you run into a 'why now and not in the previous 9 millenia' problem quite quickly.

 

The 30k armour you see in recent 40k art is always piecemeal. The actual art in the HH Black Books of late Great Crusade marines also often shows piecemeal armour that doesn't represent any of the standard armour types. Horus Heresy kits don't even necessarily represent the average HH marine.

 

The original fluff was that complete suits of Great crusade armour exist in the 41st millenium but are used for honour guards and other ceremonial purposes. Mark 3 armour in 40k should be equivalent of the horses the British army ride on parade. Wolf Guard standard bearers in old armour is perfectly logical.

 

But its your army so do whatever you want and 40k doesn't have to make sense.

[NightHowler]

Reality of things breaking down over time + futuristic technomagic plot elements = things get better over time (or stay exactly how "more awesome" they were in the past).

 

Apply sci-fi wrtiting math. Problem solved.

[Fang_Guard23]

best to stock up on heresy-era armor, I believe things are coming.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Logically no 30k armour should have lasted 10,000 years because it was already getting worn out in the Great Crusade. The ridiculous timescale of the 40k universe makes most of its elements ridiculous in turn. Breaking out ancient relics sounds like a neat idea but you run into a 'why now and not in the previous 9 millenia' problem quite quickly.

 

The 30k armour you see in recent 40k art is always piecemeal. The actual art in the HH Black Books of late Great Crusade marines also often shows piecemeal armour that doesn't represent any of the standard armour types. Horus Heresy kits don't even necessarily represent the average HH marine.

 

The original fluff was that complete suits of Great crusade armour exist in the 41st millenium but are used for honour guards and other ceremonial purposes. Mark 3 armour in 40k should be equivalent of the horses the British army ride on parade. Wolf Guard standard bearers in old armour is perfectly logical.

 

But its your army so do whatever you want and 40k doesn't have to make sense.

 

I can understand that if you mean actual complete units of armor being worn and passed down for 10,000 years..  however, I'm imagining that in the Fangs armories they may have inventories of various Mks or armor that may have never been worn or used at all. I'm also sure they would have the means to maintain and re-manufacture "new" complete sets of whatever Mark of armor in house. The MkII and MkIII designs really made that easy. 

[Karack Blackstone]

Hello, please take the following as both advice, and with salt to taste.

 

This is your hobby; please do what is the most fun for you. If need be, as mentioned, come up with a fluff reason as to why the armor in use by your specific Great Company is in the current condition, and numbers, as you wish it to be, Great Company wide. There is no limit to this hobby on the kitbashing, modeling, and painting side. The real question is the legality of weapons loadouts, and the points value of each model, towards building a table ready force.

 

The key thing here, is, as mentioned above, your fun is the best part of this hobby.

 

So, in all, if you want to have a full Great Company where are your Grey Hunters, or, all WG and above that are in PA, wear the armor mark of your choice, then, by all means, please do so! The only limit to this hobby you need to follow is your personal concept of fun; the fluff of the setting simply informs the way your GC comes together, as far as the why is concerned. Writing your own fluff as others have mentioned here is the best solution.

 

If anything, you might consider a thread of your own here to discuss the fluff you have in mind to table justify the armor marks you want to put on the table.

 

Anyway, please take this advice as you choose. Again, it's your hobby; you do you, and in the process have as much fun as you can.

[Yoyo ninja]

best to stock up on heresy-era armor, I believe things are coming.

This sounds interesting ;)

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Correct me if I am wrong, but haven't we been reduced to one Great Company twice in the last 10k years? Certainly we have rebuilt. But that could reduce the stock of Heresy-era armor. I think that was maybe in the 3E codex? Or am I just stealing some other Chapter's fluff?

 

That being said I think that you should have as much 30k armor in your 40k army as you want. Make sure your army looks the way you want it to! As a first founding chapter we probably have more of a chance to procure this armor anyway.

[Guest]

The Aett is able to produce our own armor, so even though we may lose some we can reproduce it. The older armor were much more painstaking to make while the newer armors are easier. Banded armor takes considerable times vs plate.

 

The Aett is also massive and I doubt modern SWs could take residence in all of it. Wasn't it said that even in legion times that some rooms were forgotten. Totally possible after 10k years to find a small armory.

[Kinstryfe]

I live in a fairly modest condo, and I still stumble onto a cache of Astartes armour still in it's post-production assembly phase a least a couple times a year. I'm sure an actual space wolf fortress must have a ton more armour than that just hanging around.