How to field DW Terminators

[Berzul]

Hi everyone.

 

So, in light of the new Codex, I wanted to start this short discussion. With new options for transporting them (Stormhawks), as well as new Stratagems (Deathwing Assault, Fortress of Shields, Hunt the Fallen), Warlord Traits (Master of Maneuver, Fury of the Lion), and Relics (Eye of the Unseen), I have been pondering on how to best field DW Terminators.

 

As it has been discussed elsewhere, it seems that, again, the Codex wants us to use the DW not as an independant army, but rather as part of a whole, with RW and/or GW to support them. The thing is, that when compared with the RW and the GW, the DW is very expensive to use and very low on the model count.

This, of course, its not new. It has been this way for a while. But, my point here is that the changes to 8th edition and the inclusion of the new rules and abilities the Codex brings, should probably change how we use the DW effectively.

 

Personally, I had found my sweet spot this edition with the following:

 

1 Company Master in Jump Pack

2x5 Squads of Deathwing Terminators, either all carrying Storm Bolters, or with Assault Cannons in each squad (add a Watcher in the Dark if I was going against armies with plenty of psykers)

1x5 Squad of Deathwing Knights (also with a Watcher in the Dark if needed)

1 Deathwing Ancient with Storm Bolter and Power Fist.

 

This (or something quite like this) has been my core DW for many games lately. I would drop the Terminators under the guidance of the Company Master to fire heavily at screens, "outflank" with the Knights, keeping them up in attacks with the Ancient, and then meet up in the center to beat everything that was left to a bloody pulp. This tactic (or something very close to it) has actually been the direct reason for all my latest victories on the board.

 

But now, things are changing a bit.

 

The downside to this core DW force has always been that it takes up a lot of points, and thus, makes it difficult to bring in more detachments for a bigger pile of CP. This has not been a problem, since with 5 CP I have always managed to get enough rerolls and the occasional counterattack to gain an edge. But now we need more CP. Which means I need to bring more (and more importantly, bigger) detachments. This, to the detriment of the DW themselves.

 

Also, the Stratagems and Traits have affected how I see these units. It used to be better for me to drop the Terminators, for instance, in two squads of 5. But Deathwing Assault only becomes cost efficient on a squad of 10. Also, Righteous Repugnance seems to be too good to pass up for a close combat oriented force like this one, so I need to start bringing a Librarian along and closer to the fray. It used to be I'd always bring a Librarian on bike or foot with the RW or GW mainly for Aversion at 24 inches. Now, I need to be closer to the fight, which means getting in one in Jump Pack or Terminator Armor... which, as the same times, makes him more expensive, reducing my space for the DW.

 

So, the questions that go on inside my head are: How to field the DW Terminators? And, how many DW Terminators should I bring? To maintain efficiency in combat, I mean.

 

How do you guys feel about the DW in this sense? Is there a minimum of models you will bring when going DW as a part of a whole and not their own army? What is that model number?

 

So far, I am figuring that bringing in 15 terminators has become only viable in 2000+ games. Which kinda sucks, because most games in my meta are at the 1500-1850 range. At that scale, I'm thinking that the new basic setup might be to bring a Company Master and a Librarian, and then field them along either one 10-man squad of DW Terminators, or a combination of 5 Terminators and 5 Knights with an Ancient.

 

Whatever the case may be, it has become difficult to include those last 5 DW models in...

[RayJ]

Full squads will benefit from Deathwing assault the best, so running either a 10-man Deathwing Terminator squad with 2 cyclones or a 10-man Deathwing Cataphracti Terminator squad with SB/lightning claws are gonna be ideal. You can then use Knights for your last unit of 5 if you still want to keep 15 in your list.

 

I like the idea of keeping 3 storm shields in a DWT squad to make use of Fortress of Shields to stave off threats in melee. They also provide some cool save shenanigans with an apothecary vs heavy weapons.

 

Supported by a large unit of Black Knights and a Librarian (I like one on bike), you'll have a lot of local threat to hopefully force some tough decisions.

 

At 1500-1850, I'd probably prefer Cataphracti since you can keep their points down more. Since they aren't looking for a heavy weapon, you can probably get by with 8 in the squad as well to make some room for your knights.

[Berzul]

Arent those still 40pts/model at their cheapest loadout? Combi Bolter and Lightning Claw, I mean. It would be the same cost as a 10-man squad of regular terminators.

[RayJ]

Yes, you're right on that. But they don't really make you want to buy those extra bells and whistles. You get a solid unit that shreds infantry without the frills and the 4+ invulnerable save. It was mostly moving to the next point, where you can take slightly less than a max squad without overly punishing your list efficiency.

[Berzul]

Good point. But, at the same time, if you are commiting to a 3cp Deathwing Assault, you might as well just go full force. Its an expensive stratagem. Almost half your cp in most lists.

 

Although I do like the combination of firepower and melee damage output on the Cataphractii. Power Fiss are awesome but that -1 to hit and slower movement makes them less reliable...

[dtse]

IF you REALLY REALLY want to bring deathwing (and I don't think it's a competitive choice tbh), then I feel you should limit your losses while maximizing your benefit by bringing 1 10-man unit of cheap as possible base-cost terminators.  The aim is just to drop them in and shoot chaff with 80xstorm bolter shots, twice.  And then, whatever else you get from them, is bonus.  If you can kill cultists, guardsmen, poxwalkers with that drop, then they will have done their job.  This is probably a pretty expensive way (points and CP wise) to accomplish this task, but hey, if you really want to use deathwing i feel this is the only competitive way to use them without costing you an arm and leg.  You are spending 2/3CP to double shoot, on a very expensive unit, it's almost mandatory to make it a 10 man unit.  Deathwing knights are just not good.  Too expensive and so easily blocked and bogged down, and no way of ensuring they actually get that charge off.  

 

thats my 2 cents on deathwing

[Berzul]

Yeah, pretty much what I have diagnosed so far. But, I DO want to try and bring them in.

 

I think that with Hunt the Fallen or Master of Maneuver, a DW Knight squad CAN be useful though, by allowing them to reroll charge distances.

 

Even that small 5-man squad, when bolstered with the extra attack of an Ancient and the rerolls of a Company Master or Interrogator Chaplain, can do a lot of damage.

 

Not the most efficient set up, sure, but deadly enough and fun to play.

 

Competitive play, though, would seem to exclude the DW almost entirely. If chaff killing is their best role, I might as well just bring in a Dark Talon, or some Assault Cannon speeders, or a full ravenwing bike squad.

[Stoic Raptor]

I'm glad I found that box of DWT at a good discount yesterday.  i look forward to putting them and Belial back on the table again.

 

I'm wondering if the new Warlord trait that gives you a chance to get CPs back might be helpful.  Not quite as powerful as the UM one (which allows multiple rolls on multi-CP stratagems) but you might be surprised to see how much farther 5-6 CP goes when you can get a few back (and maybe get them back again when you use them next).

 

I'm not a competitive player so as long as Deathwing are fun to use I'm happy.

[Berzul]

Unless you are playing a brigade, for the over abundant CPs, my guess is that you will most often than not go with Tactical Brilliance as your Warlord trait, in order to get those extra CPs. Which is a shame, because there are some REALLY good Warlord Traits this time around.

 

I will probably play my DW with the Hunt for the Fallen stratagem as kind of a combo-move to try and get my knights and terminators into combat, with a DW Champion and the Eye of the Unseen tied into it for good meassure. Frees up the warlord trait to take those potential extra cps.

[march10k]

Pending release of the codex, I'm still a firm believer in Mechanized Deathwing.   Three crusaders, three squads, and characters.  The Crusader is unique in that it's dirt cheap in comparison to other land raiders while allowing characters to ride with the squad, and at the same time, it's got something that's been virtually eradicated from 8th edition: horde control.  It really goes a long way towards overcoming Deathwing's low model count.  Now that we have fortress of shields and access to cataphracti armor, I'm swinging back away from tactical termies in favor of melee.  I'll need to build a new squad, but I'm tentatively leaning towards a squad of cataphracti with lightning claws, a squad of thundernators, and a squad of knights.  Characters...depend on points remaining, but we have plenty of good options. 

Edited December 11, 2017 by march10k

[Stoic Raptor]

Cheap in points... but my wallet is weeping at the price tag for such a battalion. :D

[Normal Norman]

I am not entirely convinced by the DW Ancient as he is nearly the cost of 3 DW Knights. A buffed unit of 5 is the about the same number of attacks as 8. There are a few mitigating factors such as character status, which is useful but one character with a unit can get easily get cut off by unlucky charge rolls.

[jlmb_123]

Pending release of the codex, I'm still a firm believer in Mechanized Deathwing.   Three crusaders, three squads, and characters.  The Crusader is unique in that it's dirt cheap in comparison to other land raiders while allowing characters to ride with the squad, and at the same time, it's got something that's been virtually eradicated from 8th edition: horde control.  It really goes a long way towards overcoming Deathwing's low model count.  Now that we have fortress of shields and access to cataphracti armor, I'm swinging back away from tactical termies in favor of melee.  I'll need to build a new squad, but I'm tentatively leaning towards a squad of cataphracti with lightning claws, a squad of thundernators, and a squad of knights.  Characters...depend on points remaining, but we have plenty of good options. 

 

On that note, is mechanised but non-mounted Deathwing viable? I'd worry that, Land Raiders being the size they are, you might end up with the target for your Knights being on the wrong side of the table and manoeuvring all three around around one another would be a nightmare and cost loads of time. I'm thinking of the same army list but deep striking all of the Terminators. That way, you can get the right squad to where it needs to be and still drive the LRCs up the field laying down all of that firepower.

[Berzul]

I am not entirely convinced by the DW Ancient as he is nearly the cost of 3 DW Knights. A buffed unit of 5 is the about the same number of attacks as 8. There are a few mitigating factors such as character status, which is useful but one character with a unit can get easily get cut off by unlucky charge rolls.

 

The ancient is roughly worth the cost of 3 normal Deathwing Terminators or 2 Deathwing Knights.

 

The 3 Terminators pack 6 hits, and add 6 wounds, as well as 6/12 storm bolter shots.

The 2 Knights pack 4 hits, and add 4 wounds

The ancient brings in 4 hits, plus 5 (one per model in the 5-man squad) for a total of 9, adds 5 wounds, and 2/4 storm bolter shots.

 

It also fills out an additional Elite slot, bringing you closer to a Detachment Requirement.

 

All in all, I still think the Ancient is worth the investment. I get your logic here, but you have to consider the fact that, the Ancient himself also attacks, and buffs himself. That alone makes him a better multiplier than just trading him in for 2/3 additional models.

[Stoic Raptor]

Even if I don't always use it, I'm definitely building one from the kit I picked up last weekend.  I've already got a DW Apothecary built and pained from before I sold my unfinished DA stuff a couple years ago, and I'm planning on making one with the CML.  Still leaves 3 I can build as DWKs or DWTs (I still have the squad from DV and a kitbashed Belial)

[Hellunder]

Depending on size, I'm thinking about this cheap tactic:

Deep strike 1 Assault squad, 1 interrogator chaplain w/ jump pack (+eye of the unseen)+ 5 DW Knights.

 

If the charges fail the assault squad and chaplain  still can chase and lock up targets easily.

Do you guys have any other idea on how to keep your knights alive til turn 2?

[Stoic Raptor]

Isn't there some Warlord Trait that affects charge distances?  It might be a good way to get the Knights in on the drop instead of waiting a turn or failing the charge.

[RayJ]

Isn't there some Warlord Trait that affects charge distances?  It might be a good way to get the Knights in on the drop instead of waiting a turn or failing the charge.

 

Master of Maneuver (Sammael comes with it)

[Berzul]

Depending on size, I'm thinking about this cheap tactic:

Deep strike 1 Assault squad, 1 interrogator chaplain w/ jump pack (+eye of the unseen)+ 5 DW Knights.

 

If the charges fail the assault squad and chaplain still can chase and lock up targets easily.

 

Do you guys have any other idea on how to keep your knights alive til turn 2?

You could also achieve a charge through:

 

1) A command reroll

2) Master of Maneuver

3) Hunt the Fallen, if you are going after a Character

 

I like the idea of locking the enemy down with an assault squad, since it can fall back and still shoot after it does its task. But I think I'd rather go with a turbo boosting bike squad. Meet the knights in the front. Their bolters fire better that Assault Marine weapons most of the time, and through Intractable of Speed of the Raven you can still maneuver them around without loosing combat efficiency.

 

If you go this way, use the bikes to bring in an apothecary along

[SmiteThemAll]

Its a shame Belial is still a bit naff. It he made Deathwing squads troops then it would go someway to mitigating his useless warlord trait and the price tag on Deathwing but alas. I'm having the same problem with my Black legion since GW decided Chosen and terminators aren't "troops" for BL anymore.

 

How about this as a detachment?

 

Librarian in TDA  (Warlord trait: Master of manoeuvre) For re-rolling charge distances 132

 

3x5 Deathwing w/3xThunder hammer +shields. 1xTwin claws and Sarge has a power sword and storm bolter = 672

 

Deepstrike in, cast aversion on the scariest shooting threat to your termies and charge with re-rolls. With 3 storm shields in each squad you can also risk charging some heavier hitting assault units and use Fortress of shields for only 1 command point.

 

Deathwing assault is just never going to see any use in my armies. Its only really worth it with a squad of 10 DW with 2 heavy weapons and then you're looking at a 500+ point unit. I also like to have storm shields in there for some survivability thus reducing the stratagems effectiveness.

[Berzul]

If you are going for 3 thunder hammer and storm shields, you might as well just go with deathwing knights, I think.

[RayJ]

Yeah, 3 or 4 in a 10-man squad are good, but if you're going 3 in a 5-man squad, I agree Knights are better.

[Stoic Raptor]

Its a shame Belial is still a bit naff. It he made Deathwing squads troops then it would go someway to mitigating his useless warlord trait and the price tag on Deathwing but alas. 

 

Sadly, those days are gone.  Deathwing as troops or the "Loganwing" of the Space Wolves were my favorite ways to play.  I love Terminators.  But now, troops don't seem to matter as much anymore - and that's good, because there are precious few options to choose from (though those options are all decent choices).

 

I would just like to be able to play an all-Terminator army effectively and not be hampered by it.

[Berzul]

 

Its a shame Belial is still a bit naff. It he made Deathwing squads troops then it would go someway to mitigating his useless warlord trait and the price tag on Deathwing but alas. 

 

Sadly, those days are gone.  Deathwing as troops or the "Loganwing" of the Space Wolves were my favorite ways to play.  I love Terminators.  But now, troops don't seem to matter as much anymore - and that's good, because there are precious few options to choose from (though those options are all decent choices).

 

I would just like to be able to play an all-Terminator army effectively and not be hampered by it.

 

 

There are ways. The Landraider Based formation is one.

[Stoic Raptor]

Still quite limited on Command Points, unfortunately.  But I sure would love to pile a ton of Deathwing into a couple of Crusaders and really tear it up.  Until that becomes feasible for me in terms of time and expense, I'll have to settle for teleport strikes.