How to field DW Terminators

[Stoic Raptor]

So here's a question that I believe I know the answer to, but someone on the FB group keeps insisting on a different interpretation:

 

As much as I'd love to be able to, it's my understanding that a DWT cannot be armed with a Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield AND a Cyclone Missile Launcher.

 

To me, the phrase "Replace all weapons" seems pretty clear, but this guy keeps insisting that somehow the second clause is an exception to the first, or something (genuinely I don't honestly know how he gets that interpretation).

 

Has this ever been officially addressed in 8th?  We can't really go on examples from previous Editions and as far as I know there's been nothing addressed in a FAQ or official battle report or even a picture from GW.

 

[dtse]

It says one terminator in every 5 may take a cyclone missile launcher. Nowhere does it say the missiles replace anything. So take your THSS and then add a missile launcher. Not sure why anyone wants to spend so many points on a terminator but it’s legal

[Syphid]

It says one terminator in every 5 may take a cyclone missile launcher. Nowhere does it say the missiles replace anything. So take your THSS and then add a missile launcher. Not sure why anyone wants to spend so many points on a terminator but it’s legal

Rule of cool!

[G8Keeper]

It says one terminator in every 5 may take a cyclone missile launcher. Nowhere does it say the missiles replace anything. So take your THSS and then add a missile launcher. Not sure why anyone wants to spend so many points on a terminator but it’s legal

Because you're minis are already assembled and painted that way?

[Zectz]

It's the same wording as a Melta bomb for tactical sergeants.

 

"The sergeant may take Melta bombs". This doesn't replace any wargear options.

 

"For every 5, 1 Deathwing terminator may take a cyclone missile launcher." This doesn't replace wargear. Unlike the Plasma Cannon which replaces a storm Bolter. Or a chainfist which replaces a power fist. Simple as that.

 

It goes on his shoulders and his arms are free to use whatever crazy tools he wants to :)

[Stoic Raptor]

So, Zectz, if you had a squad of 10 DWT, you're saying you could have one  guy with and assault cannon and a CML?  Because that's possible under that interpretation - and I don't think that's been possible since 2nd Ed. Space Wolves.

 

I think I'm going to magnetize the arms on my DWTs anyhow, so I can switch them between shooty and assault.  That way, if that loadout is permitted I can do it that way, if not then I can put on a SB and PF.

"For every 5, 1 Deathwing terminator may take a cyclone missile launcher." This doesn't replace wargear. Unlike the Plasma Cannon which replaces a storm Bolter. Or a chainfist which replaces a power fist. Simple as that.

It goes on his shoulders and his arms are free to use whatever crazy tools he wants to 

 

 

As for why someone would take that build? the Rule of Cool, as others have said - and also the fact that a 3++ will let your heavy weapon live longer, without losing any capability in melee.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Ulfgrim Alvsbane

[Syphid]

So, Zectz, if you had a squad of 10 DWT, you're saying you could have one guy with and assault cannon and a CML? Because that's possible under that interpretation - and I don't think that's been possible since 2nd Ed. Space Wolves.

 

I think I'm going to magnetize the arms on my DWTs anyhow, so I can switch them between shooty and assault. That way, if that loadout is permitted I can do it that way, if not then I can put on a SB and PF.

"For every 5, 1 Deathwing terminator may take a cyclone missile launcher." This doesn't replace wargear. Unlike the Plasma Cannon which replaces a storm Bolter. Or a chainfist which replaces a power fist. Simple as that.

 

It goes on his shoulders and his arms are free to use whatever crazy tools he wants to

 

 

As for why someone would take that build? the Rule of Cool, as others have said - and also the fact that a 3++ will let your heavy weapon live longer, without losing any capability in melee.

Sadly the heavy weapon options are mutually exclusive. You can take a CML or AC or PC or HF.

[Zectz]

So, Zectz, if you had a squad of 10 DWT, you're saying you could have one guy with and assault cannon and a CML? Because that's possible under that interpretation - and I don't think that's been possible since 2nd Ed. Space Wolves.

No.... because it says "take a cyclone missile launcher *or* etc etc".... The wording is clear and not ambiguous at all.

[Endgame]

The exclusivity is a bit of a bummer. If a DWT squad could take 2 cyclones with 2 other heavy weapons, that could really make death wing assault amazing

[dtse]

I’m not sure why this is even a discussion? The wording is very clear. You can take a cyclone missile launcher for every 5 terminators. It does not say it replaces anything. It’s a separate sentence to the first one and does not even refer to the other weapons.

 

But yea if you want to replace storm bolter with plasma or other heavy weapon then you can’t slap a CML. But you can definitely run a CML with a THSS

Edited December 31, 2017 by dtse

[Stoic Raptor]

 

No.... because it says "take a cyclone missile launcher *or* etc etc".... The wording is clear and not ambiguous at all.

 

 

I'd say "replace all weapons with" is pretty clear and not ambiguous, but it seems that I'm in the minority on that.

I would really like to see something official that makes it clear.  If the intent is to allow CML/TH/SS (which I'd honestly like), then the phrase "replace all weapons" should instead say "replace its storm bolter and power fist" (a much more sensible and clear phrase IMO).

 

I'm honestly surprised they haven't issued a Dark Angels FAQ yet, the book's been out for two weeks already. :D

[dtse]

Seems pretty clear.

 

 

And yes speed of the raven needs an FAQ as to weatheror not assault weapons still get -1

[Trunkello]

They said that everybody is off work because of the holidays so the faq will come at the beginning of january.

[Robbienw]

Deathwing have historically been able to take cyclones with th/ss and lc's, it's been that way for a while.

[Berzul]

I think the wording is pretty clear. You CAN take TH SS and a CML

[march10k]

Having played a couple of games with 8th edition deathwing, I've changed my thinking a little.  I still believe in crusaders for horde control and as fire magnets, but, to the surprise of my opponents, I usually run at least one of them empty.  They more than justify themselves as dakka platforms, and deepstriking deathwing is where it's at right now.   In fact, my "standard" DA list has 20 terminators and zero vehicles (as soon as I get it painted up, I need 4 scouts, 4 lascannons, and a darkshroud).  Ten tactical terminators DWAing with Belial in support is a ridiculous beatstick.  I haven't yet had need to use DWA to clear a landing zone for the knights to try a 9" charge, but the firepower put out by 2 assault cannons and 8 stormbolters inside of 12"....twice, on turn one...is a sight to behold.  Even splitting the assault cannons off onto a separate target (can't bring myself to pay 100 points for 2CMLs, that's the same cost as 4 lascannons!), the 8 stormbolters deleted 10 man squads with 4+ saves...one each in the move and shoot phases. 

 

There is one issue with deepstriking terminators with character support, I've found:  Even if you get the charge off (I seem to succeed 2/3 of the time with the ability to reroll one die, not using the stratagem), if you want the rerolls from belial or the +1A from the ancient, you have to leave a tail to stay within aura range.  On a ten man squad that just DWAed, that's not a problem, but if you're charging with a 5 man squad, it likely means only 3 models fight.  Belial's rerolls are mitigated by that cost, and the +1A from the ancient is completely offset, and then some...except in the case of knights.  Unless you're beating on one wound models (Why?), the flail is kinda bad, so you're down to 3/4 useful models fighting, the opportunity cost of keeping the flail out is somewhat less. 

 

Because of that, my standard deepstrike package is now Belial, Ancient, 10 tactical termies, and 8 knights.  If I need them to go in in two separate locations, Belial goes with the tacticals, and the ancient with the knights.

 

One other question on that strategy. Can we combat squad after using the stratagem? Or you planning to use just 2 CP on the five man squad? I really want to run DW as well. Just trying to figure out how to make all this work.

 

I think the best way to go, if you want to combat squad, is to DWA with all ten for 3CP, then, if you don't lose any models, spend a CP to split them on turn 2.  2x5 is way better than 1x10, except during DWA. 

 

 

Yeah the rerolls are nice but if you want to get the +1A and a non crappy warlord trait you have to take either Asmodai and another HQ + Belial or an ancient and another HQ + Belial or dump Belial for Azrael. By taking the master you save pretty much the whole cost of Belial by not having to take a third character and can get the +1A from Asmodai as your second HQ.

Couldn't you just make the ancient your warlord?

Captain

 

 

Yes...just like when Pask plays second fiddle to my buried company commander...

 

I lost, barely. The biggest problem being that my Terminators/Knights just could not do enough damage to wipe out units either from range or in close.  Or they eventually (due to bad dice luck) got bogged down. My Dreadnoughts also had the same issue.

 

In essence, I think that basic Terminators are worth around 21pts with no gear. 26pts is simply not worth the extra +1 save, +1A, +1W and 5++ when compared to a 14pt Tactical Marine. Look at a basic Primaris Marine at 18pts. Add whatever you think +1save and a 5++ is worth.

I also think that Land Raiders, of all varieties, are around 80pts overcosted in this edition.

 

Fists and hammers are absolutely awful this edition.  Maces are pretty good, though, what with their predictable damage and not suffering the -1 to hit.  Terminators have ALWAYS been overcosted.  So I'm not surprised.  I'm actually happy that the weapons loadout points cost went a la carte, versus a points upcharge for chainfists and Thundernators.  I'm very seriously considering some mechanized lightning claw squads.  They're cheap, and twin claws aren't as awful as fists and hammers this time around.

[Helycon]

Remember dat model within 1" of models that are within 1" of an enemy are eligible to fight as well. That generally means you can get them within 6" easily with their 40mm bases.

[Syphid]

How does everybody feel about the new Tartaros and Cataphractii Deathwing?

[Endgame]

How does everybody feel about the new Tartaros and Cataphractii Deathwing?

I've been looking at both.  I've only been playing against Nids and Death Guard, but I think my results, combined with some Math Hammer, show both are viable alternatives (and potentially better than) normal terminators.

 

Tartaros have probably the best death wing assault option for sheer number of causalities against typical targets (Guard, Marines).

 

Take a 10 man squad w/ Plasma Blaster, 2x Reaper Autocannons and Grenade Harnesses, 2 Combi Bolters w/ PF, and 5x LC.  Combat squad it into 2 squads (shooting in 1 squad, melee in the other) 

 

The shooting combat squad yields more causalities in math hammer than any other combination I've run (including double assault cannon, double cyclone, and double plasma cannon).  In practice, its somewhat swingy based on the number of shots from the grenade harness - I had an epic game where 2 harnesses yielded 20 total shots and shredded a unit of gaunts.   I've also had games where I roll low on all of the shots and its not nearly impressive.

 

 

IMO, the Cataphractii squad is best running single Lightning Claw, and is marginally more survivable than DWT on a 1st round drop (the first squad to deep strike is the one that seems to attract the most firepower).  Cataphractii also make the best "cheap" death wing assault unit if you add grenade harnesses, and since everything in the unit hits on 3s, they can drop independently of an expensive character like belial. Additionally, the Lightning Claw is about the same or better than the power fist depending on target (better vs T3, about the same vs T4).  However, you probably want to have a transport available as these guys are Slow (with a capital S) - after you deep strike they can end up stuck not contributing a ton unless you can shuttle them elsewhere with a transport.

 

What i need to try yet is trying to get more use out of Fury of the Lion.  Moving from S4 to S5 on the Lightning claws is significant, and since LCs are slightly less expensive you can bring a few upgrades elsewhere.

[march10k]

I have no use for Tartaros, but the 4++ of Cataphracti is attractive.  I'd ABSOLUTELY FREAKING love to run them with twin claws...

[Helycon]

I have no use for Tartaros, but the 4++ of Cataphracti is attractive.  I'd ABSOLUTELY FREAKING love to run them with twin claws...

To be fair, Cataphractii need to be ferried somewhere. If they fail their charge after deep striking, big chance you've wasted any assault potential they have, due to them being outrun by pretty much anyone. Their 4++ is only ever useful against weapons with AP-2 or better. Sure, there's tons of it in the game, but the main one is going to be the autocannon. Most people don't overcharge their plasma like DA do with Grim Resolve, so that's a lot less likely. 

 

While I absolutely loved the models, I feel that Tartaros are the better option next to the Indomitus we already had. Terminators are still difficult to run due to the amount of multidamage weapons in the game though. But hey, try em and see what works :) .

[sneakybamsen]

For running a pure assault deathwing unit besides the knights, I'd go for tartaros as they are the fastest terminators available. At least they are not moving slower than marines, which does mean a lot. 5 of those with twin claws, or perhaps 10 guys with all the shooting prowess they can bring. Cataphractii are cool, but 4" move and ½ advance is somewhat offputting. And they are even more expensive...

[Kilofix]

Don’t Deathwing Knights do better than dual Claw Cataphractii in almost every case?

[Stormxlr]

Why is Cataphractii Master 50 points more expensive than normal TDA?

[ephrael]

Why is Cataphractii Master 50 points more expensive than normal TDA?

I would guess it’s because Cataphractii looks 50pts cooler.