How to field DW Terminators

[mika_angelus]

And he has a 3++ build in

[sneakybamsen]

Tomorrow I'll be going to a 3-game event at the local club. Casual stuff that can bite, so I conjured the below list to try out that Deathwing Assault stratagem based on what models I have painted that could be squeezed into a 1750 list. There are many things I'd like to be able to change, but the last 3 months have seen a staggering 4 hours of painting happen... I need to get back up on the horse (damn you, newly built house and moving into so much more space :P )

 

Master with Heavenfall blade and combi plasma

Lieutenant with combi-grav (yes, I have to use a vet for him, haven't gotten my kit to make actual lieutenants yet)

 

2 5-man tactical squads with combi-melta

5-man tactical squad with plasma gun, plasma pistol and chainsword on sarge

 

deathwing terminator squad with assault cannon and chainfist

deathwing terminator squad with cyclone launcher

dreadnought with twin lascannon and missile launcher

venerable dreadnought with dual twin autocannons

 

assault squad with jump packs and plasma pistol, power sword on the sarge

 

land raider

 

razorback with twin assaultcannon

 

6CP's and going brilliant strategist on the master to try and make a couple back. 4 of them will be allocated to deathwing assault, and the rest I'll see what I can squeeze from. I am rusty however, haven't played for 6 months, so I'll need to get back into shape.

[Helycon]

Don’t Deathwing Knights do better than dual Claw Cataphractii in almost every case?

Depends on what your aim is. Knights excell in killing high toughness, where Cataphractii dual claws excell in murdering chaff. The best way to kill chaff, is actually Cataphractii with a single claw and combibolter.

[sneakybamsen]

Single claw and bolter is no doubt awesome for killing chaff, but it's not as cool as dual claws...

 

I'm expanding my deathwing, I've decided. If it's going to be 5 or 10 of both cataphractii and tartaros only time will tell. Will probably also be getting another regular terminator box, as deathwing assault with my current selection is limited in use (as per my list above)

[mika_angelus]

I want to try my tartaros terminators with the stratagem. They actually have the highest number of shoots thanks to 2 grenade harnesses (sp?), and only 2 points more expensive then a 10 man deathwing squad with 2 assault cannons.

Should be fun.

[Syphid]

Don’t Deathwing Knights do better than dual Claw Cataphractii in almost every case?

I would be very interested to see the math on this if anybody has the time, especially with the +1 strength from Fury of the Lion warlord trait.

[Grand Master Raziel]

@sneakybamsen: If you could peel off some points for another HQ, you could separate your Elites from your Battalion and put them in a Vanguard detachment.  That'd get you another CP.  If you could also find the points to replace your Master with Azrael, that'd get you another CP.

[Endgame]

 

Don’t Deathwing Knights do better than dual Claw Cataphractii in almost every case?

I would be very interested to see the math on this if anybody has the time, especially with the +1 strength from Fury of the Lion warlord trait.

 

I have some of it available.

 

Against guard / Marines / other 1 wound models, twin LC Cataphractii win out, even without the Str boost.  

 

Against 2+ wound models, the Knights pull ahead.

 

Single LC + storm bolter is better than twin LC as mentioned earlier against T3 and T4 models.  

 

In the next couple of days (hopefully), I'll finish out the math with rerolls from a Chaplain / Belial and the Str boost from Fury.

[Syphid]

Really interesting stuff, thanks!

[Endgame]

A few numbers:

 

Edited because copy / paste mangled the table

 

Cataphractii squad, 5x Storm Bolters, 1x Grenade Harness, 4x Lightning Claws, 1x Power Weapon

Wounds caused, stock squad:

 

T3 SV5+ T3 SV4+ T4 SV3+ T4 Sv 2+/5++ T4 SV2+/3++
13.33333 10.83951 6.962963 4.111111111 3.111111111

 

Wounds caused, with melee rerolls from Chaplain:

T3 SV5+ T3 SV4+ T4 SV3+ T4 Sv 2+/5++ T4 SV2+/3++
15.35802 12.60082 8.12963 5 3.666666667

 

wounds caused, with melee rerolls from chaplain and +1 str from Fury of the Lion

T3 SV5+ T3 SV4+ T4 SV3+ T4 Sv 2+/5++ T4 SV2+/3++
15.35802 12.60082 8.788066 5.49382716 3.666666667        

 

Deathwing Knight Squad (4 maces, 1 flail)

T3 SV5+ T3 SV4+ T4 SV3+ T4 Sv 2+/5++ T4 SV2+/3++
7.777778 7.777778 5.185185 6.222222222 3.851851852

 

WIth Melee Rerolls (no change for +1 str)

T3 SV5+ T3 SV4+ T4 SV3+ T4 Sv 2+/5++ T4 SV2+/3++
10.37037 10.37037 6.91358 8.296296296 5.135802469

Edited January 5, 2018 by Endgame

[sneakybamsen]

@sneakybamsen: If you could peel off some points for another HQ, you could separate your Elites from your Battalion and put them in a Vanguard detachment.  That'd get you another CP.  If you could also find the points to replace your Master with Azrael, that'd get you another CP.

 

Unfortunately I am stuck with what I have that is painted, which is like 40% of my collection points wise. Azrael, Belial, plasmastators and other goodies are not in those 40% (though most of my deathwing, two land raiders and a knight is)

 

Though you are right, Raziel. Azrael instead of the Master would have been an upgrade. Alternatively drop the assault squad and get a cheap third HQ (techmarine for instance) for a 7th CP. But the event was a casual one, and I thought I'd keep my list friendly and crumply. At least so my opponents couldn't claim I was bringing a nasty list.

 

I'll try to provide a quick report on how the three games went.

First game against chaos was a close fought one. Primarily because I was ridiculously lucky. Though my opponent wasn't bringing a nasty list (only 3 oblits and 8 zerkers), his rolls were poor, and as I cannot spot any major mistakes in my own gameplay, I have to think my list was just subpar. That of course is subject to me being the viewer, and not anyone else. Highlights was my las+missile dread who managed to kill off his helldrake and his demon prince. And of course one terminator squad who did, in the end, kill his TDA sorceror and his raptors in close combat. I lost 11-3 however. Deathwing assault worked OK overall for this game, but it probably wasn't worth the 4 CP.

 

Second game was vs Primaris Ultras, and boy was I in for a smacking. By the end of turn three I had three models left, and he had a 10+ VP lead. My dice just wouldn't do anything to his 2+ wound army. First deathwing assault plus shooting put 3 wounds on an intercessor squad. The second (I blew this completely, forgetting about Auspex Scan) I set up near his 7 hellblasters, and I lost 4 terminators before they could even shoot for their two CPs. He lost 4 hellblasters due to overcharging, but the remaining three didn't even suffer a wound from my assault cannon firing twice. I just had no hope in hell of competing with his level of dakka. Not at all a tuned list, but definitely performing better than mine.

 

Third game I was facing Death Guard. I just my face ripped off again. Three turns gone and I had two or three models left. I might have made a mistake or two, but I'm not sure I can pinpoint it.

 

So how did Deathwing Assault do? First game it was decent, but second and third, it absolutely was a CP drain for no real gain. 4 storm bolters and an assault cannon couldn't kill a sorceror with it. 32 stormbolter and 12 assault cannon shots managing two wounds on single power armor model. To make it do nasty things, it takes Belial and possibly even a jump pack lieutenant with a 10 man squad of either tartaros with every kind of gun they can get, or 10 storm bolters and 2 cyclone launchers. Firing off two rounds of krak or frag missiles with either launcher gives options, but that unit alone is around 500 points.

[Grand Master Raziel]

@sneakybamsen: If you have a Master with a combi-plasma and power sword, you have a reasonable stand-in for Azrael.  The official mini for Azzy is kind of underwhelming anyway.

 

The line between a friendly event and a competitive event is kind of blurry.  I'd say err on the side of competitive, because one can always dial back the intensity of play, but one can't make a list more competitive than it is.  Sounds like your opponents went with more competitive lists than you did.

I tried the full-on 10-Terminator 2xAC DWT in my last game.  On the drop, I think they killed 1 Rubric Terminator, then another on their shooting phase.  Mind you, they did put in some work over the course of the game, particularly when I was able to assault with them.  Didn't drop them with Belial, because I was already using Azrael and Sammael.  Didn't leave me feeling like it was a wonderful use of resources, but I didn't walk away from the table saying Never Again either. 

 

I don't think DWA competes with Weapons from the Dark Age though.  And personally, if, say, Khorne Berserkers can fight twice a turn just as an inherent ability, I don't see why we can't get DWA as an inherent ability (that only works once rather than every turn like with the Zerks) rather than having to spend CP on it.

[march10k]

 

So how did Deathwing Assault do? First game it was decent, but second and third, it absolutely was a CP drain for no real gain. 4 storm bolters and an assault cannon couldn't kill a sorceror with it. 32 stormbolter and 12 assault cannon shots managing two wounds on single power armor model. To make it do nasty things, it takes Belial and possibly even a jump pack lieutenant with a 10 man squad of either tartaros with every kind of gun they can get, or 10 storm bolters and 2 cyclone launchers. Firing off two rounds of krak or frag missiles with either launcher gives options, but that unit alone is around 500 points.

 

 

The generic chaos list you faced sounds like what you thought was appropriate for the event.  It sounds like you held your own in terms of killing, but he did a better job of focusing on the objectives?

 

Primaris are not overpowered by any stretch of the imagination, except possibly if they're forming a Bobby G gunline.  You didn't mention him, so I assume it was a tamer variant.  However, they are still, I think, a hard counter to Deathwing, since they're basically two-wound marines like us, with the difference that they have good kit for dealing with high-save multiwound models in the shooting phase, and we really just don't have much to work with other than weight of fire.  We should be pasting them in the assault phase, but that requires getting a 9 on 2D6 or taking a land raider.

 

Death guard is not a codex for friendly play, you have to work hard to self-nerf before it's anything but WAAC.

 

Deathwing assault...well, I think you're doing it wrong.  Paying 3 CP for 10 termies works a lot better, and if you don't take any casualties in the interim, you can still pay that 4th CP to combat squad them the following turn, consolidating your heavy weapons into one squad.  Also, the 8 stormbolter shots per model are very good at clearing chaff, but not reliable against 3+ and 2+ saves.  I've had success splitting my assault cannons off against a hard target while the stormbolters whittle down the numbers of cheap bodies...theoretically clearing a space for a squad of knights, but I haven't yet faced a knight-worthy target that was properly bubble-wrapped.  Either way, the 128 shots from 8 stormbolters reaped swathes of T3 bodies, cutting into the number of las and pulse fire coming back at me the next turn.

 

I tried the full-on 10-Terminator 2xAC DWT in my last game.  On the drop, I think they killed 1 Rubric Terminator, then another on their shooting phase.  Mind you, they did put in some work over the course of the game, particularly when I was able to assault with them.  Didn't drop them with Belial, because I was already using Azrael and Sammael.  Didn't leave me feeling like it was a wonderful use of resources, but I didn't walk away from the table saying Never Again either. 

 

I don't think DWA competes with Weapons from the Dark Age though.  And personally, if, say, Khorne Berserkers can fight twice a turn just as an inherent ability, I don't see why we can't get DWA as an inherent ability (that only works once rather than every turn like with the Zerks) rather than having to spend CP on it.

 

It's almost criminal not to drop them with Belial.  If you're shooting at rubric terminators, twinlinking your stormbolters may not make much difference, but against the sort of target that you're supposed to shoot stormbolters at, it's very very helpful.  And if you get a charge off, he continues to help.  I'm a fan of twinlinking, though, I take Belial AND Azrael because I want MOAR twinlinking.  My standard deepstrike package is Belial, ancient, 10 tactical terminators, and 8 knights.  Almost 1200 points, but it works well with the Azrael lascannon farm, the enemy has to choose which one to go after, and scouts make an alpha strike against the devastators difficult while the termies are safely in orbit until their first turn.

 

It would be nice if DWA were free...or at least reduced to 1CP, regardless of squad size. The argument you make about Zerkers is pretty compelling. 

[Endgame]

I've been contemplating using Plasma Cannons as they are (slightly) more effective against sv 2+ and 3+ multi wound models on average than assault cannons if you're willing to burn another CP for the boost to damage for plasma, or willing to risk overcharging.  Plasma Cannons are also more effective if you're good at rolling D3s and can come out with 3 shots per cannon :D

 

On the other hand, maybe the best plan is to just leave out the heavy weapons all together and only DWA cheaper storm bolter and grenade harness squads when your opponents has the right targets on the table?

[sneakybamsen]

March10k, the list was made as it was cause I only have 8 termies plus two sergeants painted. There was no way I could get both heavy weapons without going two squads and staying wysiwyg. If I had had the last SB+PF terminator, I would have gone with 1 squad, without doubt.

 

I know a lot of people play the DV company master as a reasonable standin for Azzy. I just don't do standins. Might be elitist, but I like to have the correct models painted for an event.My Azzy is going to get worked on soon.

[Helycon]

I've been contemplating using Plasma Cannons as they are (slightly) more effective against sv 2+ and 3+ multi wound models on average than assault cannons if you're willing to burn another CP for the boost to damage for plasma, or willing to risk overcharging. Plasma Cannons are also more effective if you're good at rolling D3s and can come out with 3 shots per cannon :D

 

On the other hand, maybe the best plan is to just leave out the heavy weapons all together and only DWA cheaper storm bolter and grenade harness squads when your opponents has the right targets on the table?

Deathwing assault is generally used to clear chaff, which isn't multiwound, high save stuff.

Also, overcharging plasma AFTER deepstriking incurs a -1 to hit to both the Plasma- and Assault Cannon. The former probably won't live to see the shooting phase after using DWA though. It's a big risk.

[Endgame]

 

I've been contemplating using Plasma Cannons as they are (slightly) more effective against sv 2+ and 3+ multi wound models on average than assault cannons if you're willing to burn another CP for the boost to damage for plasma, or willing to risk overcharging. Plasma Cannons are also more effective if you're good at rolling D3s and can come out with 3 shots per cannon

 

On the other hand, maybe the best plan is to just leave out the heavy weapons all together and only DWA cheaper storm bolter and grenade harness squads when your opponents has the right targets on the table?

Deathwing assault is generally used to clear chaff, which isn't multiwound, high save stuff.

Also, overcharging plasma AFTER deepstriking incurs a -1 to hit to both the Plasma- and Assault Cannon. The former probably won't live to see the shooting phase after using DWA though. It's a big risk.

 

If you're using deathwing assault to clear chaff, I don't think you should be using assault cannons.   Each AC will kill around 2 guardsman on average each time you fire.  A Tartaros or Cataphractii with Storm Bolter and Grenade Harness will kill 2.5 guardman each time you fire, for fewer points.  If you add Belial for the rerolls, you will close the gap some, but you are still better off with grenade harnesses - each AC + reroll will kill 3.1 guardsman, while each Storm Bolter + Grenade harness + reroll will kill 3.4 guardsman.  

 

If possible, though, I think you want to be shooting the things that are the most danger to terminators.  Don't drop in front of SM scouts and shoot them if you will be taking counter fire from Hellblasters.  Instead, shoot the hellblasters and eat the RF bolter shots.  Here is where Plasma cannons + Belial might be useful.  DWA and shoot the hellblasters with the plasma cannons using weapons of the dark age.  Each failed save will kill a hellblaster.  Then, during the shooting phase, overcharge the plasma, and deal with the fact that some terminators might die - each plasma cannon will kill 1 hellblaster on average each time you fire in this setup, so you'll kill 8 hellblasters.  

[Helycon]

 

 

 

I've been contemplating using Plasma Cannons as they are (slightly) more effective against sv 2+ and 3+ multi wound models on average than assault cannons if you're willing to burn another CP for the boost to damage for plasma, or willing to risk overcharging. Plasma Cannons are also more effective if you're good at rolling D3s and can come out with 3 shots per cannon

 

On the other hand, maybe the best plan is to just leave out the heavy weapons all together and only DWA cheaper storm bolter and grenade harness squads when your opponents has the right targets on the table?

Deathwing assault is generally used to clear chaff, which isn't multiwound, high save stuff.

Also, overcharging plasma AFTER deepstriking incurs a -1 to hit to both the Plasma- and Assault Cannon. The former probably won't live to see the shooting phase after using DWA though. It's a big risk.

If you're using deathwing assault to clear chaff, I don't think you should be using assault cannons. Each AC will kill around 2 guardsman on average each time you fire. A Tartaros or Cataphractii with Storm Bolter and Grenade Harness will kill 2.5 guardman each time you fire, for fewer points. If you add Belial for the rerolls, you will close the gap some, but you are still better off with grenade harnesses - each AC + reroll will kill 3.1 guardsman, while each Storm Bolter + Grenade harness + reroll will kill 3.4 guardsman.

 

If possible, though, I think you want to be shooting the things that are the most danger to terminators. Don't drop in front of SM scouts and shoot them if you will be taking counter fire from Hellblasters. Instead, shoot the hellblasters and eat the RF bolter shots. Here is where Plasma cannons + Belial might be useful. DWA and shoot the hellblasters with the plasma cannons using weapons of the dark age. Each failed save will kill a hellblaster. Then, during the shooting phase, overcharge the plasma, and deal with the fact that some terminators might die - each plasma cannon will kill 1 hellblaster on average each time you fire in this setup, so you'll kill 8 hellblasters.

You need to have Cataphractii to do that though, but otherwise you're correct, simply because the grenade harness doesn't replace a stormbolter.

 

I have no idea how your math for the Hellblasters works though.

[Endgame]

 

 

 

I've been contemplating using Plasma Cannons as they are (slightly) more effective against sv 2+ and 3+ multi wound models on average than assault cannons if you're willing to burn another CP for the boost to damage for plasma, or willing to risk overcharging. Plasma Cannons are also more effective if you're good at rolling D3s and can come out with 3 shots per cannon

 

On the other hand, maybe the best plan is to just leave out the heavy weapons all together and only DWA cheaper storm bolter and grenade harness squads when your opponents has the right targets on the table?

Deathwing assault is generally used to clear chaff, which isn't multiwound, high save stuff.

Also, overcharging plasma AFTER deepstriking incurs a -1 to hit to both the Plasma- and Assault Cannon. The former probably won't live to see the shooting phase after using DWA though. It's a big risk.

If you're using deathwing assault to clear chaff, I don't think you should be using assault cannons. Each AC will kill around 2 guardsman on average each time you fire. A Tartaros or Cataphractii with Storm Bolter and Grenade Harness will kill 2.5 guardman each time you fire, for fewer points. If you add Belial for the rerolls, you will close the gap some, but you are still better off with grenade harnesses - each AC + reroll will kill 3.1 guardsman, while each Storm Bolter + Grenade harness + reroll will kill 3.4 guardsman.

 

If possible, though, I think you want to be shooting the things that are the most danger to terminators. Don't drop in front of SM scouts and shoot them if you will be taking counter fire from Hellblasters. Instead, shoot the hellblasters and eat the RF bolter shots. Here is where Plasma cannons + Belial might be useful. DWA and shoot the hellblasters with the plasma cannons using weapons of the dark age. Each failed save will kill a hellblaster. Then, during the shooting phase, overcharge the plasma, and deal with the fact that some terminators might die - each plasma cannon will kill 1 hellblaster on average each time you fire in this setup, so you'll kill 8 hellblasters.

You need to have Cataphractii to do that though, but otherwise you're correct, simply because the grenade harness doesn't replace a stormbolter.

 

I have no idea how your math for the Hellblasters works though.

 

Could be my excel is wrong, but...

 

Presume a combat squad of DWT where both PC are in the same squad and using death wing assault.  They drop with Belial and shoot hellblasters.

 

each plasma gets 2 shots (average).  75% hit, 67% wound, 16% pass the save, resulting in .83 wounds * 2 for weapons of the dark age.  So, either 0 or 1 dead hellblaster per plasma cannon, with a heavy lean toward 1 dead hellblaster.  During the shooting phase, overcharge each plasma.  That is 2 more shots where 75% hit, 83% wound, 16% pass the save, yielding 1.25 wounds per so 2.5 will fail their save, meaning you'll kill either another 2 or 3 hell blasters. A safe bet is you'll be killing 4 total / dealing 8 wounds.  This can go higher if you're hot on the d3s for the number of plasma shots or if the dice are slightly hot on your hit and wound rolls, since every failed save kills a hellblaster.  

 

Each assault cannons gets 6 shots, have 75% hit, 67% wound, and 50% pass the save, resulting in 1.5 wounds, so the squad yields 3 wounds on the DWA and again in shooting phase.  This kills 3 hellblasters / deals 6 wounds.  

[sneakybamsen]

As I read our plasma stratagem (I keep forgetting the name) we get +1 to damage AND to wound, so even without overcharging, you're wounding t6 or lower on 2+. For two plasma cannons it might not make a huge impact, with averaging only 4 shots, but over the course of the game, or if using with more shots, it does matter. Also makes a decent impact when firing against tougher targets.

 

IF I were to do what Endgame describes, I'd consider not overcharging, but instead using the stratagem on both DWA and in the shooting phase.

[Helycon]

 

 

 

 

 

I've been contemplating using Plasma Cannons as they are (slightly) more effective against sv 2+ and 3+ multi wound models on average than assault cannons if you're willing to burn another CP for the boost to damage for plasma, or willing to risk overcharging. Plasma Cannons are also more effective if you're good at rolling D3s and can come out with 3 shots per cannon

 

On the other hand, maybe the best plan is to just leave out the heavy weapons all together and only DWA cheaper storm bolter and grenade harness squads when your opponents has the right targets on the table?

Deathwing assault is generally used to clear chaff, which isn't multiwound, high save stuff.

Also, overcharging plasma AFTER deepstriking incurs a -1 to hit to both the Plasma- and Assault Cannon. The former probably won't live to see the shooting phase after using DWA though. It's a big risk.

If you're using deathwing assault to clear chaff, I don't think you should be using assault cannons. Each AC will kill around 2 guardsman on average each time you fire. A Tartaros or Cataphractii with Storm Bolter and Grenade Harness will kill 2.5 guardman each time you fire, for fewer points. If you add Belial for the rerolls, you will close the gap some, but you are still better off with grenade harnesses - each AC + reroll will kill 3.1 guardsman, while each Storm Bolter + Grenade harness + reroll will kill 3.4 guardsman.

 

If possible, though, I think you want to be shooting the things that are the most danger to terminators. Don't drop in front of SM scouts and shoot them if you will be taking counter fire from Hellblasters. Instead, shoot the hellblasters and eat the RF bolter shots. Here is where Plasma cannons + Belial might be useful. DWA and shoot the hellblasters with the plasma cannons using weapons of the dark age. Each failed save will kill a hellblaster. Then, during the shooting phase, overcharge the plasma, and deal with the fact that some terminators might die - each plasma cannon will kill 1 hellblaster on average each time you fire in this setup, so you'll kill 8 hellblasters.

You need to have Cataphractii to do that though, but otherwise you're correct, simply because the grenade harness doesn't replace a stormbolter.

 

I have no idea how your math for the Hellblasters works though.

Could be my excel is wrong, but...

 

Presume a combat squad of DWT where both PC are in the same squad and using death wing assault. They drop with Belial and shoot hellblasters.

 

each plasma gets 2 shots (average). 75% hit, 67% wound, 16% pass the save, resulting in .83 wounds * 2 for weapons of the dark age. So, either 0 or 1 dead hellblaster per plasma cannon, with a heavy lean toward 1 dead hellblaster. During the shooting phase, overcharge each plasma. That is 2 more shots where 75% hit, 83% wound, 16% pass the save, yielding 1.25 wounds per so 2.5 will fail their save, meaning you'll kill either another 2 or 3 hell blasters. A safe bet is you'll be killing 4 total / dealing 8 wounds. This can go higher if you're hot on the d3s for the number of plasma shots or if the dice are slightly hot on your hit and wound rolls, since every failed save kills a hellblaster.

 

Each assault cannons gets 6 shots, have 75% hit, 67% wound, and 50% pass the save, resulting in 1.5 wounds, so the squad yields 3 wounds on the DWA and again in shooting phase. This kills 3 hellblasters / deals 6 wounds.

I was getting 8 hits in both phases in my head, and therefore not killing 8 due to rolls. Was just quick napkin math, but 8, that wasn't happening.

 

Sure, the assault cannon doesn't kill as many, is doesn't cost a stratagem and maybe an expensive terminator either.

[Helycon]

As I read our plasma stratagem (I keep forgetting the name) we get +1 to damage AND to wound, so even without overcharging, you're wounding t6 or lower on 2+. For two plasma cannons it might not make a huge impact, with averaging only 4 shots, but over the course of the game, or if using with more shots, it does matter. Also makes a decent impact when firing against tougher targets.

 

IF I were to do what Endgame describes, I'd consider not overcharging, but instead using the stratagem on both DWA and in the shooting phase.

The +1 to wound is literally not in the stratagem. It doesn't even contain the word 'wound'. So sadly, that's not going to work.

[sneakybamsen]

 

As I read our plasma stratagem (I keep forgetting the name) we get +1 to damage AND to wound, so even without overcharging, you're wounding t6 or lower on 2+. For two plasma cannons it might not make a huge impact, with averaging only 4 shots, but over the course of the game, or if using with more shots, it does matter. Also makes a decent impact when firing against tougher targets.

 

IF I were to do what Endgame describes, I'd consider not overcharging, but instead using the stratagem on both DWA and in the shooting phase.

The +1 to wound is literally not in the stratagem. It doesn't even contain the word 'wound'. So sadly, that's not going to work.

 

You are right. I'm sorry, I remember it now. It's the killshot stratagem. So much stuff to keep track of and so few games for me to get to know it all.

[Normal Norman]

Could be my excel is wrong, but...

 

Presume a combat squad of DWT where both PC are in the same squad and using death wing assault. They drop with Belial and shoot hellblasters.

 

each plasma gets 2 shots (average). 75% hit, 67% wound, 16% pass the save, resulting in .83 wounds * 2 for weapons of the dark age. So, either 0 or 1 dead hellblaster per plasma cannon, with a heavy lean toward 1 dead hellblaster. During the shooting phase, overcharge each plasma. That is 2 more shots where 75% hit, 83% wound, 16% pass the save, yielding 1.25 wounds per so 2.5 will fail their save, meaning you'll kill either another 2 or 3 hell blasters. A safe bet is you'll be killing 4 total / dealing 8 wounds. This can go higher if you're hot on the d3s for the number of plasma shots or if the dice are slightly hot on your hit and wound rolls, since every failed save kills a hellblaster.

 

Each assault cannons gets 6 shots, have 75% hit, 67% wound, and 50% pass the save, resulting in 1.5 wounds, so the squad yields 3 wounds on the DWA and again in shooting phase. This kills 3 hellblasters / deals 6 wounds.

 

Due to the way that modifiers are applied after rerolls, you only have a 66% chance of hitting when deeepstriking with heavy weapons.

 

You can reroll 1s and 2s as they are straight misses and a 4+ hits but any 3s become misses only after modifiers are applied and so you can’t reroll them.

 

It is stupid and I don’t like it but there you go.