Competitive dark angels ideas

[breng77]

It would only work if the dark shroud were a character, otherwise people will just kill that first. I don't rate the darkshroud unless it is out of LOS -1 to hit 4++ and 9 wounds is decent but it will still go down to focused heavy fire.

[Helycon]

That's the point. It's going to draw massive fire from your opponentwhich will then not be going into your other fragile stuff.

[FarFromSam]

Here's what I've been toying with when it comes to vets.

 

They're cheap, but can be kitted out for just about anything. They shine in shooting because you're able to pod them in where ever you'd like for some sweet alpha strike.

 

Like others have said, they become a little bit of a liability since they can only be a 5 man, 1 wound, unit. So the question is, what power armor unit benefits from vets shooting, and can also cheaply add strong cc oriented bodies?

 

The company champion, my new favorite unit, that's who. For only FORTY POINTS you get a 4 wound, 3 attack CHARACTER who hits on a 2+. And with the Blade of Caliban, he hits hard. +3 str, -3ap, D3 wounds. They lack shooting, since they can only seem to take a bolt pistol, but that's fine. When they're backed up by vets.

 

Company veterans can use their special rule and on a 2+ jump in and soak a failed save roll for a champion.

 

My plan is to have a squad of company vets with storm bolters and chainswords with a power sword thrown in. Then, 4 company champions riding in a drop pod. The total comes to 354 points. And leaves room for one more character. (looking at you Azrael 4++). But any will do. For an extra 50, swap sb for combis, and go vehicle hunting. 12 s7 D3 attacks from the Champions alone scares most vehicles.

 

Also, with the above scenario, you're only an elite and hq away from 2 cps for two vanguard detachments. It's about the same price as termis, but it's something unique.

 

Looking forward to fielding company champions with Combat squad tacticals in razorbacks.

 

Not sure if it will be competitive, but the image of greenwing lone stars running around, jumping into combats to cause mayhem finally has me excited for this codex. Any of yall tried it yet?

[Madmonkeyman]

If you are running a drop pod have you looked at the imperial space marine?

[Berzul]

I just played a game against Death Guard with

 

Company Champion

4 Veterans with Bolt Pistols, Combat Shields, Chainswords and a Power Sword

Company Master with Heavenfall Blade and Fury of the Lion

All in an Assault Cannon Razorback.

 

The squad looked small and unimportant to my opponent. I then managed to get them into melee with a Defiler, killed it, then move on to Foetid Bloat Drone and killed it, then into a Demon Prince and killed it, then into a Chaos Lord and killed him. I ended the battle with just the Company Champion and the Company Master on the board, but still... they killed just so. much. stuff.

[breng77]

That's the point. It's going to draw massive fire from your opponentwhich will then not be going into your other fragile stuff.

My issue is I'm not convinced it will draw massive firepower a couple of lascannons getting through puts it down a decent amount of times.

[VorpalPoolNoodle]

My current vet loadout is 5x twin plasma pistols with a company master swinging a relic blade, plasma pistol and eye of the unseen, plus a chapter ancient with plasma pistol. All of these ride in a pod.  

 

Alpha strike from just the vets alone has potential 30 damage and has some good anti-melee if they survive into their next turn to shoot again.

[Madmonkeyman]

I think that company champ is a steal for 40pts. Does he even replace the power sword with the blade of Callaban or is it 0 Pts. Could put 4-5 in a rhino or razorback with the imperial space marine ( because he is also great) . One one drop in the rhino. Advance it turn one next to true dark shroud and pop smoke for a -2 to hit rhino . Could be quite good. Would be about 350 pts for 5 characters and about 20 wounds . Cos you have to target each one separately you would need loads of extra fire power to kill them. Combat shields not a bad idea , think storm shields would be too much. You could even position the rhino after they disembark so the characters can be shot next turn.

[Helycon]

 

That's the point. It's going to draw massive fire from your opponentwhich will then not be going into your other fragile stuff.

My issue is I'm not convinced it will draw massive firepower a couple of lascannons getting through puts it down a decent amount of times.

Three words:

Line

Of

Sight

[dtse]

One manticore easily takes out a darkshroud even hitting on 5s. Doesn’t mean it’s not worth taking. At the end of the day everything in this game currently can be taken out by something. I one-shot two dreadknights in overwatch :cuss. Everything dies

[Orkinstein]

I think that company champ is a steal for 40pts. Does he even replace the power sword with the blade of Callaban or is it 0 Pts. Could put 4-5 in a rhino or razorback with the imperial space marine ( because he is also great) . One one drop in the rhino. Advance it turn one next to true dark shroud and pop smoke for a -2 to hit rhino . Could be quite good. Would be about 350 pts for 5 characters and about 20 wounds . Cos you have to target each one separately you would need loads of extra fire power to kill them. Combat shields not a bad idea , think storm shields would be too much. You could even position the rhino after they disembark so the characters can be shot next turn.

 

The funny thing is that our company champion doesn't have combat shield in equipment list but has combat shield rule 

[breng77]

 

 

That's the point. It's going to draw massive fire from your opponentwhich will then not be going into your other fragile stuff.

My issue is I'm not convinced it will draw massive firepower a couple of lascannons getting through puts it down a decent amount of times.

Three words:

Line

Of

Sight

If it is out of Los it isn't absorbing fire. Beyond that in a list using a -2 to hit talonmaster I highly doubt it is out of LOS. As to it being worth taking it depends on your list in a gun line I think it works well in a mobile list less so.

[Berzul]

 

 

I think that company champ is a steal for 40pts. Does he even replace the power sword with the blade of Callaban or is it 0 Pts. Could put 4-5 in a rhino or razorback with the imperial space marine ( because he is also great) . One one drop in the rhino. Advance it turn one next to true dark shroud and pop smoke for a -2 to hit rhino . Could be quite good. Would be about 350 pts for 5 characters and about 20 wounds . Cos you have to target each one separately you would need loads of extra fire power to kill them. Combat shields not a bad idea , think storm shields would be too much. You could even position the rhino after they disembark so the characters can be shot next turn.

The funny thing is that our company champion doesn't have combat shield in equipment list but has combat shield rule

Wait.... what??

[brother_b]

It's the same with BA I think he just comes with it.

[Helycon]

 

 

 

That's the point. It's going to draw massive fire from your opponentwhich will then not be going into your other fragile stuff.

My issue is I'm not convinced it will draw massive firepower a couple of lascannons getting through puts it down a decent amount of times.

Three words:

Line

Of

Sight

If it is out of Los it isn't absorbing fire. Beyond that in a list using a -2 to hit talonmaster I highly doubt it is out of LOS. As to it being worth taking it depends on your list in a gun line I think it works well in a mobile list less so.

 

No, it's even BETTER when it doesn't get shot at, since everything will keep that -1 to hit them, making sure that 6+ hit roll special shenanigans don't work. Your opponent will try to maneuver stuff into positions into positions to try and kill it, making you able to act on that, hopefully in a positive way. 

 

In a mobile list it's just going to protect your more valuable stuff. You keep advancing it every turn you get for the 4++ invulnerable. Again: if they're shooting at it, less chance of your actual killy stuff dying.

[breng77]

Yes, but the question as always is, would spending the points on more killy stuff be better than spending it on the darkshroud.  If it takes a lot of fire to go down sure, but if it takes 2 lascannon hits and dies not so much.

 

My point was you cannot both make the argument that it will draw massive firepower, and when I say I'm not sure if it will draw massive firepower, you say, it will be out of LOS.  I agree in a gunline list where it can hide it is worth it 100%.  In a mobile list (like the proposed use of the talon master) I don't really think it draws enough firepower to be worth its points.  Now I could be wrong, but it is a unit that puts out no offense, if it dies quickly it is a problem.  Further it has trouble keeping up with more mobile elements to some extent given that it has 2-4" less movement and a regular advance roll.

 

I'm not saying it is a something that should never be used, but I don't think it is anywhere near an obvious take in a more mobile force.  In my 1500 point lists I rarely include it because it is too much investment.  At 2k it might make the cut.

[Helycon]

Yes, but the question as always is, would spending the points on more killy stuff be better than spending it on the darkshroud.  If it takes a lot of fire to go down sure, but if it takes 2 lascannon hits and dies not so much.

 

My point was you cannot both make the argument that it will draw massive firepower, and when I say I'm not sure if it will draw massive firepower, you say, it will be out of LOS.  I agree in a gunline list where it can hide it is worth it 100%.  In a mobile list (like the proposed use of the talon master) I don't really think it draws enough firepower to be worth its points.  Now I could be wrong, but it is a unit that puts out no offense, if it dies quickly it is a problem.  Further it has trouble keeping up with more mobile elements to some extent given that it has 2-4" less movement and a regular advance roll.

 

I'm not saying it is a something that should never be used, but I don't think it is anywhere near an obvious take in a more mobile force.  In my 1500 point lists I rarely include it because it is too much investment.  At 2k it might make the cut.

A Talonmaster dies just as easily if you don't keep it behind stuff, and doesn't have and doesn't have an invulsave if it wants to be offensive and there fore has less use at that point.

 

I feel a Darkshroud is a fantastic addition to almost anything. Why do people rave (pun intended) about the Raven Guard and Alpha Legion traits? Because -1 to hit is just very good, that's why.

[breng77]

A talon master is really easy to keep behind stuff (especially with  out of LOS things counting for targeting it), so it is more durable, and adds offense, and buff auras.  If the Dark Shroud was a character it would be amazing (and broken).

 

Those chapters and their  tactics are raved about for 2 reasons.

 

1.) -1 to hit is good, this is true.  But it is better when your opponent cannot remove it simply by killing a single model.  If that model were out of LOS at all times (like in a gunline) then it is actually more powerful that the trait because they cannot just get close to negate the buff.  I look at the dark shroud as a 9 wound flyer if it isn't out of LOS.  No one seems to say that those are unkillable.  IF you don't get first turn against things that ignore LOS the shroud is dead turn 1, and your -1 is gone.  Like I said at 2k I think it is likely worth it, at lower points it is questionable to me, because I would rather have other units that fill our offensive roles.  It is also faster and character protection makes it much better at grabbing objectives.

 

2.) both those chapters also have the 1 CP infiltrate stratagem, I honestly think if this was given to a different chapter in both cases you would hear, -1 to hit is good, but I'm taking my Berserkers as Night lords so I can infiltrate them.  IT would be a situational trait that you want on your back field units, much like our own Grim Resolve.  But when you pair it with the best stratagem it becomes an obvious choice.

[Zectz]

There will always be the debate if the Darkshroud is worth the points instead of just bringing more offensive units. The value of it though is you can give the -1 to any kind of unit in your list, when Raven Guard/Alpha Legion only get it for troops + dreads and it's really strong. You have to also consider that the -1 bonus brings other bonuses too like making overcharged plasma worse and preventing any "hit roll of a 6" bonuses like Necron Telsa weapons.

 

Something I want to try is the x3 Predator setup using Killshot with a darkshroud behind them. Or if you're bringing Land Raiders with Deathwing Knight/Asmondi bomb + other rhino carrying company champion/vets using smoke launcher + darkshroud first turn.

[breng77]

That is true, that applying it to non-infantry/bike/dread units has merit.  Again I think in general it is a valid choice dependent on the rest of your list. In my current list I don't value it but that could be in part due to playing a mixed force of White Scars and Dark Angels, where the DA are mostly ravenwing and deepstriking units like inceptors.  So the Shroud would not apply to all my units, and would struggle to keep up with the bulk of my army.  I see more value in a non RW force where it is protecting vehicles, or a firebase.  This is more true in vehicle heavy lists where the biggest threats to the dark shroud are also threats to your vehicles.

[Polythemus]

Has anyone tried using some combo with empiric channelling and leadership debuffing to force losses from morale?

I posted a list with Zeke, and two Libby and reivers plus int Chappell, but I think you’d need atleast 2000pts to run it. I think the reivers would need to be choppy

[dtse]

You still need to kill things to force morale lol

[Polythemus]

I agree dtse but since this is not the space to discuss my list I did not list it in full. my question was in regards to the theory of a core built around psychic shenanigans with leadership debuff , and empiric channel. With other units to cause morale checks. The build I have seen you argue for thus far has been pick and choose factions with gun line D angels, which is nice but I’m wondering if other options have been tried. Since most of the players here are just looking to be competitive within a local meta that’s the kind of list I’m looking for. Running the field with dark Angels at a GTO ITC event ain’t happening.

[breng77]

I feel like there is not enough LD lowering stuff in just DA. -2 seems like about it, which means you will still need to cause a bunch of casualties to squads to get them to take much damage. Not to mention it is a strategy that many armies basically ignore.

[Madmonkeyman]

The psychic power will still work even in fearless stuff to cause mortal wounds. Think it's a fun idea but has too many failure points to be reliable. You won't know to you try it though