Competitive dark angels ideas

[lhavoc]

Given that so many of the iconic Dark Angels tactic (like DeathRaven) is so CP overcosted, and that the Warlord trait “Brilliant Strategist” lets you recover CP. It seems to me that if/when the Lion returns, he will be a big CP generator to make these overcosted Strategums viable. Here’s hoping for more Robes and a Robed Primarch

[SnakeChisler]

Quite a few games in and as long as your starting with 8/9 CP's + the get CP's back warlord trait then I've had enough to run all the Dark Angels stratagems I've needed.

 

You can't waste them on command re-rolls though

 

9 CP's with warlord trait gives you on average 12 + 1 re-roll, 1 per turn for WOTDA, playing aggressively 4 for only in death with the character speeders giving you some 1 dice charge re-rolls.

 

In terms of competative then the usual suspects will be at the top not Dark Angels, the new deamons codex is unbelievably strong, the guard & mechanicum players have barley scratched the surface on some of thier synergies as have Eldar.

 

Ex new deamons codex plague bearers have a 5++ with 5+ fnp you can enhance that to a 4++ with a stratagem and take 30 for not much points, you can also deep strike for another stratagem.

 

If you want to win competitions then you wouldn't be taking Dark Angels, that's not to say there not competative it's just up to a point so in my opinion throwing detachments from other codex at your list won't break them up to the upper tables, we will be what we have been in previous incarnations a rock paper scissors Dex able to give a bloody nose to some slug it out with others and on games played so far very resilient.

[Madmonkeyman]

Each new codex they have released seems to be OP. Still think dark angels can hold their own against nearly every army: they do need allies though to sure up a few gaps. Agree daemon book looks great but wait to see what people come up with. I still plan to kill them all!!

[SnakeChisler]

Each new codex they have released seems to be OP. Still think dark angels can hold their own against nearly every army: they do need allies though to sure up a few gaps. Agree daemon book looks great but wait to see what people come up with. I still plan to kill them all!!

I agree that we can hold our own but I disagree with the rest of the comment.

 

The units people are proposing as fill in are for the most part available under the DA banner and all a lot of people are proposing is using one-trick-pony stratagems from other books and if you do that you burn through them at a vast rate of knots as well as pulling resources from your primary source.

 

Things like the Celexus are a bit of a side issue if they charge then their eating a bucketful of overwatch and you cant use them as screeners any more, there also not cheap.

Ravenguard infiltrate if done with multiple squads costs a lot of CP's

 

The normal advice is to burn CP's early but DA seem to play the long game, running Ravenwing units then speed of the Raven is virtually an auto every turn coupled with WOTDA on Hellblasters your skimming another 3/4 cp's. Running Character speeders means your prob gonna want at least 1 'Only in Death's'

I've also used data link telemetry against an opponent running celexus assassins as well as auspex scan when someone decided to drop within 12" of Az and the hellblasters.

 

Most of the stuff you want to do though is expensive my ravenwing for example has gone replaced by the 2 character speeders shroud and Dark talon flyers with some practice you can get -2 to hit on the flies with re-rolls and ignores cover.

My Az vehicle bubble gone replaced by hellblasters.

 

Also don't underestimate what ignores cover gives you were playing with far more terrain, anyone watching the Warhammer GT series will have seen that the custom boards at Warhammer world are packed with it.

 

Anyways comp ideas 2 Talons 2 Character speeders & Shroud

[breng77]

It is just a different allocation of CP to bring allies.  I agree you are not going to bring raven guard to infiltrate 3 units and still have CP to spare.  But infiltrating a single important unit (or using SWs for outflank) can be huge.  You talk about speed of the raven being an every turn thing.  I have not really used it more than once or twice in a game, but having white scars teaming up lets me use it essentially twice in 1 turn.  I don't think you need WOTDA every turn, I usually use it 2-3 times.

 

So if you use Infiltrate (1CP), Speed/Born (2CP), and WOTDA 1 CP you use 4 CP turn 1.  I don't find I need as many later in the game, and that the warlord trait can get 1 of those back on average. 

 

I agree on ignores cover though it is doubly important when some factions have auto-cover (Nids, AdMech).

 

It is also not all about stratagems other chapter tactics are sometimes better for certain units than ours are, and making use of that can be helpful.

[Madmonkeyman]

trouble with allies is you end up with stuff you don't want like unwanted Hqs to get the things you want so not sure if they are worth it.  Interested to hear how people are doing with things.  Main ideas would be infiltrating aggressors or black templar scouts.   Im hoping the new books ( custodies etc) bring something we can use.  

 

Over all I'm loving the new codex and I've found it very competitive. 

[breng77]

The HQs are not a huge issue if you were already taking an extra detachment for the CP.  The largest issue is that those HQs don't benefit other parts of your army, so you end up losing a bit of synergy.

[march10k]

 

 all a lot of people are proposing is using one-trick-pony stratagems from other books and if you do that you burn through them at a vast rate of knots as well as pulling resources from your primary source.

 

 

 

 

 WOTDA on Hellblasters

 

My Az vehicle bubble gone replaced by hellblasters.

 

 

Not me...I'd propose 3x10 IG as bubble wrap, and either a naked officer for HQ or a primaris psycher if you want.  Replaces the scouts that I would have used for bubble wrap, but gives me three bonus CP while consuming none. 

 

I wouldn't take hellblasters, it's too many points per shot, but that's a personal decision. Actually, Azrael has the only plasma weapon in my list...but if I were going to run plasma, it would be devastators or inceptors.

 

My Az vehicle bubble is now an Az lascannon devastator bubble.  Ten guys rocking eight lascannons camped in the upper floors of a ruin have a 2+/4++ and vertical distance to enhance the standoff provided by the scouts providing deepstrike bubble wrap and the elevated firing position also makes it harder for targets to break LOS or claim obscuration.

 

 

trouble with allies is you end up with stuff you don't want like unwanted Hqs to get the things you want so not sure if they are worth it.

 

Well, my example of a cheap IG battalion would be worth it.  Well under 200 points for 3 ten man units of bubble wrap and 3CP is a steal...oh, and an irrelevant HQ, but he's so stupid cheap.  I'd be happy to have just the three squads and 3 CP for a full 200 points, and this is cheaper and comes with a 31st meat shield...

[breng77]

Interesting that 165 points for 4 shots is not too many points per shot, but 165 points for 5-10 shots is.  Not saying you need to take helblasters (Lascannons are better strength if you are taking the basic Plasma incinerator, better range, and more damage potential.) but the points per shot argument isn't a very strong one when you are fielding units with less shots and wounds for the same points.  In your case A squad of 10 helblasters when using WOTDA compares pretty favorably with 10 Devs with 8 lascannons. as far as damage output, simply because it puts out between 2 and 12 extra shots per turn.

[Solrac]

Interesting that 165 points for 4 shots is not too many points per shot, but 165 points for 5-10 shots is.  Not saying you need to take helblasters (Lascannons are better strength if you are taking the basic Plasma incinerator, better range, and more damage potential.) but the points per shot argument isn't a very strong one when you are fielding units with less shots and wounds for the same points.  In your case A squad of 10 helblasters when using WOTDA compares pretty favorably with 10 Devs with 8 lascannons. as far as damage output, simply because it puts out between 2 and 12 extra shots per turn.

 

Points per shot actually increases when you are not shooting which is what March is talking about.

 

A Lascannon team will be shooting every turn because of the range. Hellblasters need to get into range at least turn 1. The other thing about Plasma is you won't be overcharging every turn (e.g shooting at things with -1 to hit means riskier overcharge).

 

I myself like Hellblasters but as March said it's really personal preference.

 

Always remember if you plan to run an infantry gunline, regardless of what, ALWAYS find the points for at least the basic Ancient.

[breng77]

With 30" range and 6" move I think helblasters will be firing every turn as well. They might not have their first choice of target turn 1, but they'll have range to something. Also if considering things like that devs die faster and as such will shoot less during the game. I've played few games where they were not dead turn 1 or 2.

[Madmonkeyman]

What flavour of hellblasters do people use by the way. I agree normal devs die too quickly in my experience. IG squads are not a bad investment if you are mainly running a gun line. Still think you need the scouts though.

[breng77]

I think in DA rapid fire are likely the best though I can see an argument for the heavy option, the increased cost is generally why I would opt of rapid fire though.

[Kallas]

Dark Angels are probably the best place for Heavy Plasma Incinerators:

- 36" range, so can reach out well

- Grim Resolve helps a bunch (no need for a Captain babysitter; don't want to move anyway because they're Heavy)

- High strength when Supercharged synergises nicely with Weapons of the Dark Age (9/-4/3 is pretty great for dropping heavy vehicles)

 

A decently sized unit (7+?) in cover with a Lieutenant (and possibly an Ancient). Pretty expensive and have a huge target on their heads but they'll rip up basically anything.

 

Assuming 10 Marines with Lt, they'll average about 18 wounds to T8/3+. That's a dead Russ, likely a dead Land Raider too (averages 15 wounds vs a Raider, but a 6+ save is far from reliable!) Even a 5-man squad will lay down the hurt, almost killing a Rhino chassis (with WotDA anyway).

[Berzul]

Here is a small list of things I think have worked great in my past few games, or atleast seem good on paper. Not sure if competitive, but good either way:

 

1) Devastators with Plasma Cannons, a Company Ancient, and an Apothecary, in a Drop Pod, with WotDA

 

Drop for positioning, walk out, start blasting that overcharged D3 plasma shots. Die, shoot again, come back, repeat.

 

Add a Master (or maintain positions after dropping in) and a Lieutenant for better effect.

 

2) 10-man Deathwing Terminator Squad with stock weaponry (for lower costs), and a 10-man Assault Squad with Flamers, and DWA

 

Drop down the termies at 11", with the Assault Marines at 9.1" in a screening formation. Shoot on movement, shoot in shooting, hold off the charge with the marines with 2D6 autohits in Overwatch, then jump out of combat and countercharge with Terminators.

 

Add Heavy Weapons, a Character with Master of Maneuver and an Ancient for better effect.

 

3) 4 Company Veterans with Plasma Pistols, Combat Shields and Chainswords and a Company Champion, in a Twin Assault Cannon and Storm Bolter Razorback, with a Master with Heavenfall Blade and Fury of the Lion, WotDA and a CRR.

 

Drive up to the enemy, pop out, fire charged plasma, then charge in. Rerroll a die for better odds, hit for 12/7 attacks at S5/S8 all around.

 

Actually managed to beat a soulgrinder to death in one round of combat with this.

 

Replace the Master for a IC for more melee focus, or add a nearby Librarian with Righteous Repugnance for greater effect all around.

[Madmonkeyman]

So how have people got on with the new codex . What armies / lists have you done well/ struggled against. Any good tactics etc.

[Noneisbackhere]

Guys what units you think will do great in a 1000point list full competitive. I've tried to make an alpha strike list with inceptors-bikes-talonmaster-Dark talons but its costly. Any ideas?

[SnakeChisler]

Running Sableclaw & Talon master with relic blade using Rievers to screen front intercessors back an sides

 

Use a speeders to flank down 1 side, be aggressive, speeder Whirlwind stratagem works well figure we'll be the only ones using it.

 

If your opponent tries to commit to that side then you've enough speed to redeploy or fly in and snipe out a warlord, only in death strat let's you blast away for a final time. You can push the reivers out for some grenade shenanigans and shut down shoot units.

 

Hoping onto buildings makes you pretty immune to most charges from ground troops.

 

Adding inceptors adds to the general mayhem, again on buildings there infantry so get +1 for cover bolters have been average but plasma has been wrecking multi wound models & tanks.

 

Good combo is the Ancient with a Librarian as it adds one to his leadership so bumps to 10 if within 6" makes mind wipe a lot easier, get the rievers in on the action for -1 that big scary thing with a bit of degradation can end up hitting on > 6

[breng77]

1k points is tough I would forgo our character speeders at that level as they end up being a large portion of your points. I'd likely go with some scouts a jump pack master, then pick some hard hitting elements.

[Noneisbackhere]

Running Sableclaw & Talon master with relic blade using Rievers to screen front intercessors back an sides

 

Use a speeders to flank down 1 side, be aggressive, speeder Whirlwind stratagem works well figure we'll be the only ones using it.

 

If your opponent tries to commit to that side then you've enough speed to redeploy or fly in and snipe out a warlord, only in death strat let's you blast away for a final time. You can push the reivers out for some grenade shenanigans and shut down shoot units.

 

Hoping onto buildings makes you pretty immune to most charges from ground troops.

 

Adding inceptors adds to the general mayhem, again on buildings there infantry so get +1 for cover bolters have been average but plasma has been wrecking multi wound models & tanks.

 

Good combo is the Ancient with a Librarian as it adds one to his leadership so bumps to 10 if within 6" makes mind wipe a lot easier, get the rievers in on the action for -1 that big scary thing with a bit of degradation can end up hitting on > 6

 

To be more specific its for my local league. The first 2 players i would play against are chaos/tyranids. I was thinking to run:

-Sammael Sableclaw

-Talonmaster

-Intercessorsx5

-tacticalx5

-tacticalx5

-reiversx5

-reiversx5

-dark talon

[Madmonkeyman]

Maybe have scouts rather than tacticals. Apart from that you don't have any heavy weapons apart from the dark tallon gun which isn't that good. Take the relic sword on the tallon master . Over all will work well

[Noneisbackhere]

Maybe have scouts rather than tacticals. Apart from that you don't have any heavy weapons apart from the dark tallon gun which isn't that good. Take the relic sword on the tallon master . Over all will work well

Yes i missed that, heavenfall blade is pretty much an auto include on my talon master. Well i was thinking that i dont need much of heavy w. against tyranids, and against chaos well, whats the biggest vehicle that someone could bring in a 1000point list? And if someone does Rift cannon could work with some luck :D

[march10k]

With 30" range and 6" move I think helblasters will be firing every turn as well. They might not have their first choice of target turn 1, but they'll have range to something. Also if considering things like that devs die faster and as such will shoot less during the game. I've played few games where they were not dead turn 1 or 2.

 

If lascannon devs are dying that fast, you're using them wrong.  Mine (10 of them with 8 lascannons) go upstairs in ruins with Azrael and a lieutenant.  Pretty tough to shoot them out, and being upstairs with scouts pushing back deepstrikers, it takes a while to get to them, at which point Azrael and the lieuenant (with heavenfall blade) defend them.  It's a chunk of points (~750 with 3x5 scouts for bubble wrap), but eight twinlinked lascannons rerolling ones to wound is worth it, and I haven't lost a lascannon yet in 5 games with this setup.  The scouts always die, I lose the sergeants a lot, and lost Azrael once, but a 2+/4++ and barriers to a successful charge (even without the bubble wrap, deepstrikers wouldn't have much luck charging 9" plus the vertical distance) make them very durable, and then there's the opportunity cost.  Do you shoot the terminators that dropped in your face or the lascannons in the distance?  The fact that the lascannons really aren't easier to kill than the terminators means they don't take much fire. 

 

/edit/  And when I get my Darkshroud to the table...

Edited January 16, 2018 by march10k

[breng77]

I mean that assumes you always have a ruin in your deployment zone in which to put those units, that said terrain provides good LOS to the opponent etc.  IME even with 2+/4++ people will focus them down in they are a threat.  Depending on my list I would shoot them over shooting terminators because terminators are easier to ignore especially if I have my own bubblewrap.  For instance if I have my own scouts and get first drop I can make it such that you cannot bubble wrap that ruin unless it is super deep in your own deployment, then deepstrike onto my own scouts with say Plasma Inceptors and watch you pick up a decent number of devs.  6 Bolter inceptors also 1 turns a squad on average, Sammi  in sable claw kills 5 on average if accompanied by a Talon Master (who kills another 5) 40 " range so you cannot really hide from them.

 

  Maybe it is just me, but even in cover most opponents I face can do 5 wounds to a squad with a 4++.  So it may just be a difference of out meta but Devs never seem to live unless I am sinking a to of points into trying to get them to do so (Azzy, Dark Shroud) and fortunate with terrain.

[Madmonkeyman]

So I tried out some hell blaster last night with banner / azrael. I was in the bad situation where harlequins were going to charge my lines and azrael and almost certainly kill everything. So I over charged all the plasma with the +1 damage stratagem. Got a few hit but more importantly got quite a few deaths ( didn't reroll ones as I needed deaths) then shot at key characters at bs 2+ before he could charge in . Did alot of damage and meant that he was not in a great position after the assault.