Competitive dark angels ideas

[ShadowCore67]

Take 10 man hellblaster squads with Azzy, Lt., and Chapter Ancient. Use WotDA. Taking the 10 man squad allows for split fire, effectively allowing you to be able to use WotDA "twice".

 

Has worked wonders in every game of mine so far. Any vehicle or elite unit they looks at dies.

Edited January 17, 2018 by ShadowCore67

[breng77]

I assume that your overcharge against harpies was in overwatch as then you can shoot characters because it is not the shooting phase. Edited January 17, 2018 by breng77

[breng77]

Take 10 man hellblaster squads with Azzy, Lt., and Chapter Ancient. Use WotDA. Taking the 10 man squad allows for split fire, effectively allowing you to be able to use WotDA "twice".

 

Has worked wonders in every game of mine so far. Any vehicle or elite unit they looks at dies.

. I've found 6 inceptors to have a similar effect where you can splitfire using WOTDA.

[Madmonkeyman]

So you still have to shoot "as it's the shooting phase" so characters need to be closer. But you can always choose models to die that will be the closest to enemy characters.

 

Usually use inceptors but thought I would give the plasma hellblasters ago. More because I liked the banner. Don't really like gun lines but it's clearly strong. Maybe harlequins wasn't a fair test for it considering how fast they are and how good their invuns are

[Madmonkeyman]

So back to my earlier question- what armies are you doing well with and what armies are you struggling against.

[Madmonkeyman]

So I play mainly in tournament so against friend who bring horrible lists . I'm finding gun lines are the easiest to deal with. Admech/ guard.

Also played grey knights / space marine raptors with good success as agin after they drop in very immobile.

Eldar/ reapers / harlequins / sisters are much harder as they can get round screens and have good fire power. Still they are quite squishy and if you can survive the alpha strike they go down quickly.

Chaos - the primarchs - still working on how to beat these guys. They are fast and attack flyers . One is ok- together it's hard work. Still think they are beatable but a harder match up for sure. Hellfire / flakk helps a bit as well.

 

So far 11 wins and one loss with the new codex.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Madmonkeyman

[SnakeChisler]

I mean that assumes you always have a ruin in your deployment zone in which to put those units, that said terrain provides good LOS to the opponent etc.  IME even with 2+/4++ people will focus them down in they are a threat.  Depending on my list I would shoot them over shooting terminators because terminators are easier to ignore especially if I have my own bubblewrap.  For instance if I have my own scouts and get first drop I can make it such that you cannot bubble wrap that ruin unless it is super deep in your own deployment, then deepstrike onto my own scouts with say Plasma Inceptors and watch you pick up a decent number of devs.  6 Bolter inceptors also 1 turns a squad on average, Sammi  in sable claw kills 5 on average if accompanied by a Talon Master (who kills another 5) 40 " range so you cannot really hide from them.

 

  Maybe it is just me, but even in cover most opponents I face can do 5 wounds to a squad with a 4++.  So it may just be a difference of out meta but Devs never seem to live unless I am sinking a to of points into trying to get them to do so (Azzy, Dark Shroud) and fortunate with terrain.

No its not just you if i were to put a dev squad out it would get wiped T1 the Hell blasters let you move and fire also with LOS blocking people just hide stuff, I'm using inceotors as well + the Sam Talon Combo

[march10k]

I mean that assumes you always have a ruin in your deployment zone in which to put those units, that said terrain provides good LOS to the opponent etc.  IME even with 2+/4++ people will focus them down in they are a threat.  Depending on my list I would shoot them over shooting terminators because terminators are easier to ignore especially if I have my own bubblewrap.  For instance if I have my own scouts and get first drop I can make it such that you cannot bubble wrap that ruin unless it is super deep in your own deployment, then deepstrike onto my own scouts with say Plasma Inceptors and watch you pick up a decent number of devs.  6 Bolter inceptors also 1 turns a squad on average, Sammi  in sable claw kills 5 on average if accompanied by a Talon Master (who kills another 5) 40 " range so you cannot really hide from them.

 

  Maybe it is just me, but even in cover most opponents I face can do 5 wounds to a squad with a 4++.  So it may just be a difference of out meta but Devs never seem to live unless I am sinking a to of points into trying to get them to do so (Azzy, Dark Shroud) and fortunate with terrain.

 

Everything you just said applies just as well to hellblasters as it does to devastators.  I'm NOT saying that lascannon devastators are invincible.  I AM saying that "take hellblasters, devastators are too fragile" is ridiculous.  Throw enough dice at either of them, and you'll kill them.   I prefer the devastators because lascannons are S9 with 48" range. 330 points for 10 men with 8 lascannons.  Versus 400 points for 10 men with 10 plasma incinerators.  Hellblasters are tougher at 20 points per wound versus 33, but, for tank hunting purposes, which is what I want, 18" less range and only S8 and 2 damage, just doesn't do it for me. 

 

As for having a ruin in my deployment zone, that's generally the case, my store only has three tables and most of the terrain is urban.  That said, it doesn't have to be a ruin, it's just that the added vertical distance is a great bonus due to better LOS and more difficult charges.  But any cover is good enough.  Yes, if you're getting the first drop, and you drop a scout squad to compromise my ability to bubble wrap the most ideal devastator deployment location, that's good for you and bad for me. That works  IF that's the number one priority on your mind, IF you get the first drop, and IF there's only one suitable place to park the lascannon farm.  Lots of IF in that. 

 

"especially if you have your own bubble wrap?"  That's what DWA was made for. Besides, I'm deeply skeptical that you'll find it easy to ignore 20 terminators in your deployment zone. 

 

Bubble wrap isn't perfect, there are a couple of ways to clear it out before a first turn deepstrike, DWA being one of them, but most of the time my opponents have to kill the scouts on turn one, deepstrike on turn two, and charge on turn three.  Giving me at least one turn to shoot/charge the deepstrikers and/or drop Azrael and the lieutenant down to the ground floor.  Killing the lascannons on turn one is highly improbable.  Hell, for that matter, killing them at all just hasn't happened yet.  Maybe this weekend?  I've lost games with this setup, but I haven't lost devastator squads.  The only thing that's ever really shot at them on turn one is autocannons and tau stuff, including pulse rifles. 

[breng77]

Helblasters are also 330 points for 10 guys with 10 Plasma incinerators, so against damage 1 weapons they are twice as durable.  Because they can move and fire, they are have 12" less range, further WOTDA gives them 3 damage.  It is generally more than enough to hunt tanks and way more reliable. (you never fluff the damage roll).

 

As for bubble wrap, DWA does not clear it prior to first turn deepstrike, it clears it during first turn deepstrike, so you would need 1 squad to kill the wrap and then the next squad to come down in the hole.  With my list I am more than happy if you drop 20 terminators in my deployment zone, I rarely stay there.

 

If  I can use my scouts to push your bubble wrap back to create a hole for my other units it is fairly trivial to kill 1 squad if not both of the dev squads with shooting.

 

My scout bikers will do at least  12 wound (95% of the time) (presave) in one turn, with an average closer to 20.  That is 3-4 dead right there.  I already pointed out that Sammiel will kill a squad by himself most of the time.

 

I'm not saying they are bad, but I don't think your experience of them never dying is the norm.  As you said terrain at your local store seems to lend benefits to them.  Frequently that is not the case in places I have played.  For instance in my last game my opponent had 1 large LOS blocking hill (no cover), a short ruin behind the hill (not really able to see infantry or short vehicles over the hill very well.), and a forest in his deployment.  The forest would have been the only place to deploy your squad and have good LOS to most of the table and get cover.  It was near the edge of his deployment (so not possible to force me back far enough, especially if your scouts did not deploy first.)

 

So it all depends on what is available, I would argue that in the above scenario there was no place suitable to park the lascannon farm.

[march10k]

Oh, did hellblasters get a points cut?  I thought they were 40ppm?

 

Yes, they can move and fire, if you give up the rerolls.  Are you going to move and overcharge?  I've never found S8 satisfactory against tanks, I guess that's the root of our disagreement.  When you're talking about ONE lascannon versus ONE plasma incinerator, yes, 3 damage is more reliable than D6. (if you wound.  Plenty of T8 out there!)  And it costs CP.  When you're talking about 8D6 damage versus a flat 30 damage, the lascannons are going to be a lot less unpredictable.

 

The main thing that hellblasters have going for them is that nobody's going to want to get within 15" and face twice the pain.  I'm still going with S9.  I face a lot of leman russes, and wounding on 3s instead of 4s is a big deal to me.

 

The point about 20 terminators is that they're a lot of threat to be ignoring, they don't automatically and unthinkingly get dumped into the same spot every game.  If you have a highly mobile army that I can't cripple by deleting one or two key units, then I'm not likely to pour 20 terminators into a remote corner of the board that they won't be able to walk back from in a reasonable timeframe. 

 

The scouts preventing bubble wrapping...you're missing my point.  If you use that first drop the way you describe, it doesn't push back my bubble wrap, it only forces me to put the lascannon farm somewhere else.  There's not going to be the hole for your other units that you describe. 

 

Sammael is a badass, all of our named characters are. The only comparable unit in another army would be a couple of tau commanders mont'ka-ing on turn one with maxed out dakka.  They, like Sammy, can just blow right by the bubble wrap into shooting range without hurting their BS, and with ATS to offset the cover save. 

 

It sounds like you suffer from a dreadful lack of terrain on your tables.  Either way, the success or failure of the lascannon farm isn't totally dependent on getting a cover save, vertical distance to delay a charge, and an elevated firing position to ensure LOS.  Those are all fantastic bonuses, but if there's no cover on the board that works both ways.  Unrestricted lines of sight are great for my lascannons and my stormbolters will love not having to chew on infantry in cover. Not having that additional charge barrier is a bit of a bummer, though.

[breng77]

Helblasters are 33 points per model with base equipment. 

 

Why would I give up re-rolls if both fire bases have Azreal.  I don't see too much T8 honestly, there just isn't that much in the game (knights, Landraiders, Leman Russes superheavies, seems like about it.)

 

Lascannons are still unpredictable even with 8D6, but if we are assuming all hits, and average results 30 damage is still more on average than 8D6 damage (28).

 

As for terrain there is plenty, it just isn't ruins.  That seems to be the issue, any table where a tall ruin in a deployment zone has LOS to most of the table I would consider that lacking useful  terrain   The hill in question was huge, and blocked LOS.  So good terrain just not for Devestators.  So if my scouts can deny the one really good placement for them and force them somewhere that has worse LOS, range and position then they have done fine and I can ignore your farm.    So maybe it is just the terrain styles we play on.  I prefer mobility to slightly easier wounding against a minority of targets.  Helblasters are just more flexible, they are better against a larger variety of targets 10 Helblasters deletes your 10 terminators on average in 1 shooting phase, whereas 8 lascannons is not likely to do so.  Or against say hordes, the helblasters make a meaningful contribution, and the devs really don't/

 

Again lascannon devs are far from bad, many people use them with helblasters as part of an azzy fire base, they are just not as flexible.

[SnakeChisler]

The thing with Hellblasters is volume of shots & mobility + 2 wounds

 

They are Azreal's body guard of choice

[march10k]

 

 I don't see too much T8 honestly, there just isn't that much in the game (knights, Landraiders, Leman Russes superheavies, seems like about it.)

 

Lascannons are still unpredictable even with 8D6, but if we are assuming all hits, and average results 30 damage is still more on average than 8D6 damage (28).

 

As for terrain there is plenty, it just isn't ruins.  That seems to be the issue, any table where a tall ruin in a deployment zone has LOS to most of the table I would consider that lacking useful  terrain   The hill in question was huge, and blocked LOS.  So good terrain just not for Devestators.  So if my scouts can deny the one really good placement for them and force them somewhere that has worse LOS, range and position then they have done fine and I can ignore your farm.    So maybe it is just the terrain styles we play on.  I prefer mobility to slightly easier wounding against a minority of targets.  Helblasters are just more flexible, they are better against a larger variety of targets 10 Helblasters deletes your 10 terminators on average in 1 shooting phase, whereas 8 lascannons is not likely to do so.  Or against say hordes, the helblasters make a meaningful contribution, and the devs really don't/

 

I see tons of leman russes.  Half of my shop is playing guard, and they all bring 3-5 proper tanks.  Most of the rest run a knight, one guy likes to play three of them.  I need S9 in my meta.

 

It's 30 damage vs 28 if we assume overcharge, all hits, all wounds, and perfectly average D6s.  At which point you have paid a CP for 2 points of damage.

 

Actually, in terms of terrain, our tables pretty much have the old standard of 1/4 of the table covered in terrain. At least half of it is more than 4" tall.  Tons of LOS-blocking for infantry, and even from an elevated firing position, there is plenty of dead space where you can't shoot, caused by all of the tall terrain you aren't in.  If you weren't up there on the second or third floor, you'd have 1-2 lanes that are 3-5" wide to shoot down, and long range shooting would be completely worthless.  That sounds very different from what you described, with one decent LOS-blocker plus a couple of craters and forests?

 

If you force me out of one deployment spot, it comes nowhere near following automatically that the lascannons are no longer a threat.  

 

Why would I drop ten terminators in front of ten hellblasters when I have eight lascannons pointed at them?  That just doesn't make sense.  But you do bring up an interesting point.  What happens first, DWA or auspex scan?  FAQ needed!  Both trigger "immediately" on arrival.

 

Yes, hellblasters are good enough (though not efficient) at killing horde units.  20 shots that virtually all result in a model removed is nothing to sneeze at.  But show me a horde army that consists exclusively of chaff.  There will be a viable target out there for the lascannons.  And they will have range to it.  Meanwhile, the stormbolters...80 twinlinked boltgun shots on turn one will put a nice dent in the cheap infantry.  And the survivors of that cheap infantry will have to face units of 8 and 10 termies, they won't be focusing down one five man squad at a time.  

 

 

The thing with Hellblasters is volume of shots & mobility + 2 wounds

 

They are Azreal's body guard of choice

 

 

Volume of shots comes into play inside 15".  So what they really represent is board control, projecting a 21" bubble for your opponent to stay out of.  If you're getting two shots each, your opponent is cornered or doing it wrong.  Shouldn't happen often.  And mobility?  Well, maybe compared to Devs.  But then, Devs have 18" more range, offsetting 3 turns worth of moving towards the enemy.  Unless you're using that mobility to run away, it's not really an advantage over lascannons.  

 

Azrael is there to give the 4++ bubble and twinlinking while representing a counter-charge threat.  He is the bodyguard.

Edited January 20, 2018 by march10k

[breng77]

No FAQ needed if 2 things happen at the same time the player whose turn it is decides the order. As for terminators vs helblasters if I castle around them your choices are to either not drop them near anything, or drop them near helblasters.

 

As for horde armies with no good lascannon targets that would be my orks if I want to go super competitive. All boy equivalent models and characters. It can be dull to play but it is effective precisely because it negates anti-tank shooting.

 

 

In the end I use neither helblasters nor devs (or azzy for that matter) as they don't fit my preferred playstyle.

[dtse]

Caledonian uprising.

 

Dude bringing Sammy, talonmaster, shroud

 

SEVEN dark talons. Welcome to 8th edition dark angels.

 

 

On a more cool note I think primaris aggressors and Inceptors may have some play and fun combos with the new Custodes. The 5+ invuln banner seems a nice way of giving decent invuln without using Azrael and Custodes have deepstrike stratagems. Or jet bikes and ravenwing combo.

[Helycon]

Caledonian uprising.

 

Dude bringing Sammy, talonmaster, shroud

 

SEVEN dark talons. Welcome to 8th edition dark angels.

 

 

On a more cool note I think primaris aggressors and Inceptors may have some play and fun combos with the new Custodes. The 5+ invuln banner seems a nice way of giving decent invuln without using Azrael and Custodes have deepstrike stratagems. Or jet bikes and ravenwing combo.

I did get the codex for CA. I love the looks and narrative so far,even if the rules aren't the strongest (which is really how I like it, balanced with proper strengths and weaknesses).

 

I reckon I'll most often run them with some Grey Knights though, but more units means more options, means more fun!

 

Waiting for FW to release rules for those gorgeous models though! Just compare the GW and FW Contemptors for AC :P

 

When it comes to DA and that list though, some people will always try to spam the best units from a codex and nothing else. It's why I will never bother with competitive; it's just not fun to me. It'll probably perform very decently with the amount of bolter shots to clear hordes, and a good amount of S10 attacks which are also capable of mortal wounds. All hard to hit, rerolls from Sam and Talonmaster, all boxes ticked.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Helycon

[Madmonkeyman]

Honestly don't think. Flyer spam is that good. You have to table your opponent to win . There is no other option. You can't score objectives really.

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

A fun combo for those of you not adhering to mono-faction:

Ig have a psychic power called Terrifying Visions: target enemy unit within 18", -2Ld until next psychic phase.

Very useful if you're running a libby and want very reliable Mind Wipes or better Trephinations.

[SnakeChisler]

A fun combo for those of you not adhering to mono-faction:

 

Ig have a psychic power called Terrifying Visions: target enemy unit within 18", -2Ld until next psychic phase.

 

Very useful if you're running a libby and want very reliable Mind Wipes or better Trephinations.

If you add an Ancient you get +1 to Leadership without having to cast a psychic power or take IG

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

You should be doing that anyways if youre taking a libby that will hang out in the middle of your line.

[lhavoc]

So has anyone put together a complete list of what’s good? We have:

 

Azrael Gunline (Formation)

 

(Units)

Agressors

Hellblasters (Heavy Plasma)

Scouts (Area Denial)

Ravenwing Knights (Plasma)

Anything with Plasma really

[SnakeChisler]

Mind wipe for psychic - works best with ancient buffing leadership of Librarian

Stock 2 powers to take are Aversion & mind wipe

 

Auspex scan on large AZ Hellblaster's units + ancient

Data link telemetry - situational but when it's needed (hard to hit targets such as flyers assasins) ITS a real work horse

 

Talon masters ignores cover - underrated it's a real bonus splitting the HB off to targets in cover your opponent thinks are well protected, work in tandem with Sammael & Dark Talon.

[breng77]

My list of what is good would be

 

HQ

Azzy

lieutenants

Sammi

Talonmaster

Master

 

Elites

Dreads (maybe, better for us than most marines)

Ancient

 

 

Troops

Scouts

 

Fast Attack

Inceptors

RW bikers

Dark Shroud

Scout bikes (though not as good as for other chapters)

 

Heavy Support

Helblasters

Devestators

Predators

 

Flyers

Dark Talon

 

transports

Razorback

 

Warlord Traits

Master strategist is our best it is ok, I don't love it (might be my ability to never roll a 5+ to get my CP back)

 

Relic

Heaven Fall blade

 

Stratagems

Speed Of the Raven

WOTDA

Only in Death does duty end (better for us than most space marines due to Sammi/talon master)

Stuff that is good for all marines (auspex scan, Killshot)

 

That is about all I think I would class as "good"

Edited January 22, 2018 by breng77

[Helycon]

Everyone seems to neglect the Stormraven. It's a massive beasty with a ton of firepower, transport capability, PotMS, Hard to hit, and can work together with a Darkshroud to be even more durable and survive first turn. To be fair, I haven't built mine, but look forward to using it.

[breng77]

It is ok, I think with the points hike I just find them too expensive.  It becomes a question of do I want a storm raven or 2 Dark Talons.  It also isn't Ravenwing, so does not benefit as much from some of our buffs, stratagems etc.

Edited January 22, 2018 by breng77