Surviving against Eldar

[Blackcadian]

We‘ve just started a league in our gaming club, and while my monthly game will be against Death Guard I already dread the game against our resident Eldar player. Especially after watching an Eldar batrep last night.

 

Unfortunately he’s a pretty good player, too, and likes to bring out his strongest toys.

 

To be honest I’m not really sure we can hang with the pointy ears, their new Codex seems to be more than solid on all fronts.

 

Do you have an special Eldar shredding tactics or things to wach out for? He usually brings Iyanden with a Hemlock, Wraiths and a Knight. Especially the latter I have no idea how to tackle. I’m not adverse to Forge World btw if that helps, I even bought a Scorpius and a Rapier just out of Eldar hate.

[Jolemai]

Scorpius will do wonders - put it out of sight and delete a unit a turn - or put serious damage on a Wriathknight

 

A Flybrarian Dreadnought will be a fun surprise against the Hemlock but don't expect to repeat that trick in subsequent games.

 

Believe it or not, I've been enjoying Scouts against Eldar. With the new Codex the choppy ones will do damage should you charge whilst any non-sniper ones will hinder their deployment should you drop them first.

[Blackcadian]

Scorpius will do wonders - put it out of sight and delete a unit a turn - or put serious damage on a Wriathknight

A Flybrarian Dreadnought will be a fun surprise against the Hemlock but don't expect to repeat that trick in subsequent games.

Believe it or not, I've been enjoying Scouts against Eldar. With the new Codex the choppy ones will do damage should you charge whilst any non-sniper ones will hinder their deployment should you drop them first.

Yes thats what I‘m hoping with the Scorpius. Will place a Lt and Jump Pack Captain next to it, too.

 

But won’t the fun surprise be the killer overwatch that my Libby dread will eat on the charge from the flamers?

 

Scouts I unfortunately only have 5 with Sniper rifles :/

[Remtek]

A few tips:

 

- He will probably use the re-deploy strat (to re-deploy 3 units right before the game begins) to set up perfect fire lanes for his dark reapers, so make sure you don't put anything important on the flanks.  If you are running two flyers put them as far apart as possible (on flanks)

- If/when you deep strike try to keep out of los from the shooting units close to farseers. The intercept strat they have is really powerful, a unit within los of you and within 6 of a farseer can do a full shooting wtihout minus to BS

- They can use 1 cp to fall back and shoot

- Try to assault through walls to avoid overwatch

- Low target priority on wave serpents unless you have melta in range

- Cast your other powers before wings, to avoid deny the witch

 

Eldar/ynnari is probably BA's toughest matchup.. good luck :)

[swordofmandulis]

I know it's not helpful but whoever wrote the Eldar codex decided to cram as much brazen cheating in there as they possibly could.

 

It's going to be an incredibly tough match up and I would say that if you fail a vital charge, it's probably over. The biggest problem is that everything is good, so there's no taking out that key unit, because there's something else lethal or nigh unkillable to take its place. Yeah I'm salty.

[Blackcadian]

A few tips:

 

- He will probably use the re-deploy strat (to re-deploy 3 units right before the game begins) to set up perfect fire lanes for his dark reapers, so make sure you don't put anything important on the flanks.  If you are running two flyers put them as far apart as possible (on flanks)

- If/when you deep strike try to keep out of los from the shooting units close to farseers. The intercept strat they have is really powerful, a unit within los of you and within 6 of a farseer can do a full shooting wtihout minus to BS

- They can use 1 cp to fall back and shoot

- Try to assault through walls to avoid overwatch

- Low target priority on wave serpents unless you have melta in range

- Cast your other powers before wings, to avoid deny the witch

 

Eldar/ynnari is probably BA's toughest matchup.. good luck :)

Jeez all of that sounds horrible! Thanks though, at least I’ve been warned now.

[The Unseen]

I mean, everyone always wants to say that Marines, especially the Ultra's after the Ward dex fiasco, are GW's favorite, but nothing compares to how Phil Kelly makes sure his favorite faction is always the best. Eldar haven't had a bad book ever, and their rarely, if ever, not in top 3 in any given edition.

 

A friend of mine plays Eldar a lot, though not so much since 8th dropped, and he was never big on the wraith units except the knight. My suggestion is just load up on anti tank, preferably something with decent range. Overcharged plasma is good against the smaller wraith units, but your going to need a lot of lascannons or equivalent to bring down a wraithknight in a decent timeframe, and quad heavy bolter rapiers will make mincemeat out of their standard infantry, but will struggle to dent the T6 wraith units.

I'll second the scouts idea, using them to provide a screen against some of their stuff is a good idea, as their regular infantry will lose combat to them, or at least not win quickly. Just whatever you do, don't charge the flamer wraithguard within 8", and try not to let those guys ever shoot you.

[Panzer]

Well the problem with Wards vanillar Marine codex was that it had incredibly good internal balance so no matter what the Marine player took it was always ending up strong in casual games. Only with those formations it became a real top tier army on tournaments tho.

The Eldar Codex was a completely different thing. The internal balance was pretty screwed up at times but it included some broken units....and that's all it takes for tournament lists.

 

But yeah Kelly is terrible as well. Eldar always end up super strong under his hand and I already dislike him for how bad he is at writing T'au fluff anyway (about as terrible as Ward writing his official fan fiction). 

There's hope that GW can undo some of it with their CA and whatnot once they are done releasing all the initial Codexes and can actually focus on the books that are supposed to bring balance to the game.

[Xenith]

You can't blame Kelly, Eldar have always been cheese mongers.

 

3rd ed codex by Gav Thorpe had tanks that could shoot in the movement phase then move on the shooting phase, always strike first banshees, seer councils of doom, 75pt wraithlords, starcannon spam, the list is long.

 

Eldar don't like sudden short range shooting. Deepstrike stuff to catch them off guard. It'll mess with the eldar players head.

[Panzer]

Fair enough. Damn space elves! :P

[Demoulius]

Most Eldar units (sans the wraiths) also dont take to well to beeing hit in the face. Or rather the last time I played (was in 7th mind you, but still :P )

 

Are they still T3 and S3? Because if so gunning them down might be the safest option while keeping the anti tank for the grav tanks and knights that they might take.

 

I third the Scout option. Always had a soft spot for them and compared to alot of power amoured unis they out-perform them on some areas. Or to be more specific, units like dark reapers or banshees dont gain to much when they target a scout unit vs a power armoured unit. They are cheaper, are hit and wounded on the same rolls and only armour is worse really.A strong base of scouts against the pointy ears might not be a bad idea!

[Blackcadian]

I mean, everyone always wants to say that Marines, especially the Ultra's after the Ward dex fiasco, are GW's favorite, but nothing compares to how Phil Kelly makes sure his favorite faction is always the best. Eldar haven't had a bad book ever, and their rarely, if ever, not in top 3 in any given edition.

 

A friend of mine plays Eldar a lot, though not so much since 8th dropped, and he was never big on the wraith units except the knight. My suggestion is just load up on anti tank, preferably something with decent range. Overcharged plasma is good against the smaller wraith units, but your going to need a lot of lascannons or equivalent to bring down a wraithknight in a decent timeframe, and quad heavy bolter rapiers will make mincemeat out of their standard infantry, but will struggle to dent the T6 wraith units.

I'll second the scouts idea, using them to provide a screen against some of their stuff is a good idea, as their regular infantry will lose combat to them, or at least not win quickly. Just whatever you do, don't charge the flamer wraithguard within 8", and try not to let those guys ever shoot you.

Hmmm anti-tank... Devastators will probably die fairly quickly... I do have a Sicaran with 2 Lascannons but thats about it. Would grabbing a Cerberus or a Knight be a appropriate solution? Or a Lascannon Rapier for less money and points spent, we do need those command points it seems.

 

Looks like I’m not getting around grabbing more Scouts it seems. I don’t really like the models, but I like losing to Eldar even less.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

How well do sos and the cullexus assassin work in 8th, eldar have a strong pshycic phase, could either of these units be helpful?

[swordofmandulis]

The problem you have is that you are almost guaranteed to lose a key unit/vehicle turn 1 if they have dark reapers. Their Krak missile attack always hitting on 3's regardless will devastate almost anything, and they are likely to be guided too

[Karhedron]

I play both Blood Angels and Eldar so I can offer some help here. Eldar have impressive firepower and mobility. Their melee ability is variable and depends very much on the player, some may be aggressive with Banshees and Wraithblades in Serpents and Shining Spears waiting in the webway to pounce. Others may keep some counter-charge units to protect their firebase such as Jetbike Autarch and Wraithlords, others may concentrate purely on shooting.

 

Sadly Dark Reapers are indeed a hard-counter to Culexus which is a shame as he would seriously mess with their psychers otherwise. This is made worse by the fact that Farseers often hang around the firebase near Dark Reapers anyway so staying out of LOS of the Reapers while getting close to the psychers is likely to be hard.

 

What I love as an Eldar player is an army that attacks in waves or one that I can force to come in piecemeal. My firepower is usually sufficient to overwhelm the 2 or 3 most threatening units each turn and then move on to the next wave while my CC reserves mop up any survivors. What I hate is an army that can get entirely in my face very quickly as this overloads my target priority. Also my squishy T3 space-elves are very vulnerable to both melee and massed bolter fire.

 

Based on this, I would suggest going Baals-to-the-wall for an all out decapitation attack. Jump Pack assault with as many units in jump packs as you can. Infiltrate your CC Scouts up close. Load up the rest in Transports and Flyers and hurtle up the board as fast as you can. Make no mistake, you will take casualties but once you get close, you will start causing pain. Even a 5-man assault squad will butcher Eldar in melee unless they are a dedicated CC squad. I would suggest running MSU where possible as this denies Eldar easy targets for Doom (their favourite psychic power) and means that Battleshock will not be an issue.

 

Eldar shoot hard and certain stratagems make them shoot harder so attacking piecemeal will see you wiped out. If you commit everything in one go, you will take casualties but your survivors will make a mess of anything they touch as even you basic troops will wound Eldar infantry on a 2+. The other reason for getting close quickly is that many people take the Alaitoc Craftworld trait which means that enemy units shooting at the Eldar have a -1 to Hit penalty from outside 12". Get inside that 12 bubble and maximise your firepower.

 

Eldar have lots of multi-wound weapons, Reapers are a fantastic example. For this reason, expensive multi-wound infantry like Primaris, SG and Terminators may be more of a liability than a help. Multiple squads of normal infantry may be a better bet as you can force your enemy to waste their multi-wound weapons overkilling 1-wound infantry. Plasma and melta will help deal with tough targets as will heavy weapons on your transports and aircraft. I am not convinced about Devastator squads or fire-support tanks as these just make tasty targets. Spread your dangerous weapons through the rest of your army so your opponent cannot kill them all. That said, Eldar have little indirect fire so Whirlwind variants are quite effective for their points and if they send mobile units or Webway units to destroy them, they will have spent a lot of points taking out a cheap unit.

 

In short, Eldar excel at bringing maximum power to bear on the most dangerous threats so the way to win is to saturate them and deny them priority targets.

 

The last piece of advice is to take a decent melee character with the Angel's Wing relic as this ignores overwach. This is specifically to counter Wraithguard with D-scythes as they have the most terrifying overwatch in the game and will delete a squad of Marines per turn if left unmolested. Also they can withdraw from combat and still shoot so take something like a Thunderhammer to kill them quickly.

[Panzer]

What I love as an Eldar player is an army that attacks in waves or one that I can force to come in piecemeal. My firepower is usually sufficient to overwhelm the 2 or 3 most threatening units each turn and then move on to the next wave while my CC reserves mop up any survivors. What I hate is an army that can get entirely in my face very quickly as this overloads my target priority. Also my squishy T3 space-elves are very vulnerable to both melee and massed bolter fire.

 

That's a universal thing tho. If the enemies come one by one you can dedicate your whole armies power on one part of the enemies army at a time and simply overwhelm it. That's why new players often lose with armies more experienced player win with. Especially when there are elements that are particularly quick and others that aren't. ;)

[Remtek]

I play both Blood Angels and Eldar so I can offer some help here. Eldar have impressive firepower and mobility. Their melee ability is variable and depends very much on the player, some may be aggressive with Banshees and Wraithblades in Serpents and Shining Spears waiting in the webway to pounce. Others may keep some counter-charge units to protect their firebase such as Jetbike Autarch and Wraithlords, others may concentrate purely on shooting.

 

Sadly Dark Reapers are indeed a hard-counter to Culexus which is a shame as he would seriously mess with their psychers otherwise. This is made worse by the fact that Farseers often hang around the firebase near Dark Reapers anyway so staying out of LOS of the Reapers while getting close to the psychers is likely to be hard.

 

What I love as an Eldar player is an army that attacks in waves or one that I can force to come in piecemeal. My firepower is usually sufficient to overwhelm the 2 or 3 most threatening units each turn and then move on to the next wave while my CC reserves mop up any survivors. What I hate is an army that can get entirely in my face very quickly as this overloads my target priority. Also my squishy T3 space-elves are very vulnerable to both melee and massed bolter fire.

 

Based on this, I would suggest going Baals-to-the-wall for an all out decapitation attack. Jump Pack assault with as many units in jump packs as you can. Infiltrate your CC Scouts up close. Load up the rest in Transports and Flyers and hurtle up the board as fast as you can. Make no mistake, you will take casualties but once you get close, you will start causing pain. Even a 5-man assault squad will butcher Eldar in melee unless they are a dedicated CC squad. I would suggest running MSU where possible as this denies Eldar easy targets for Doom (their favourite psychic power) and means that Battleshock will not be an issue.

 

Eldar shoot hard and certain stratagems make them shoot harder so attacking piecemeal will see you wiped out. If you commit everything in one go, you will take casualties but your survivors will make a mess of anything they touch as even you basic troops will wound Eldar infantry on a 2+. The other reason for getting close quickly is that many people take the Alaitoc Craftworld trait which means that enemy units shooting at the Eldar have a -1 to Hit penalty from outside 12". Get inside that 12 bubble and maximise your firepower.

 

Eldar have lots of multi-wound weapons, Reapers are a fantastic example. For this reason, expensive multi-wound infantry like Primaris, SG and Terminators may be more of a liability than a help. Multiple squads of normal infantry may be a better bet as you can force your enemy to waste their multi-wound weapons overkilling 1-wound infantry. Plasma and melta will help deal with tough targets as will heavy weapons on your transports and aircraft. I am not convinced about Devastator squads or fire-support tanks as these just make tasty targets. Spread your dangerous weapons through the rest of your army so your opponent cannot kill them all. That said, Eldar have little indirect fire so Whirlwind variants are quite effective for their points and if they send mobile units or Webway units to destroy them, they will have spent a lot of points taking out a cheap unit.

 

In short, Eldar excel at bringing maximum power to bear on the most dangerous threats so the way to win is to saturate them and deny them priority targets.

 

The last piece of advice is to take a decent melee character with the Angel's Wing relic as this ignores overwach. This is specifically to counter Wraithguard with D-scythes as they have the most terrifying overwatch in the game and will delete a squad of Marines per turn if left unmolested. Also they can withdraw from combat and still shoot so take something like a Thunderhammer to kill them quickly.

This is excellent advice! Would like to add one thing; our Scouts infiltrate at an earlier stage than Rangers, so you can open up pockets to land in safely by blocking their forward deployments. 2 scout units should be enough if you space them out max. 

[Karhedron]

This is excellent advice! Would like to add one thing; our Scouts infiltrate at an earlier stage than Rangers, so you can open up pockets to land in safely by blocking their forward deployments. 2 scout units should be enough if you space them out max.

Yup, plus if you get the first turn, those Scouts are all set for a T1 charge. If you don't get the first turn, the Eldar player will often have to dedicate some firepower to clearing the chaff rather than risk them tying up his valuable shooty units.

[Jolemai]

Why do our Scouts "infiltrate" at an earlier stage than Rangers?

[Karhedron]

Scouts deploy as normal during the Deployment phase as long as they are >9" from the enemy deployment zone.

 

Eldar rangers deploy at the start of the first Battle Round (before either player's turn) >9" from the nearest enemy unit. This means Scouts can hold a landing zone for your Deep Strikers by preventing Eldar Rangers from deploying as a chaff screen. It is a subtle and important distinction between the 2 flavours of "infiltration" and one that we can use to our advantage in this case.

[Panzer]

Why do our Scouts "infiltrate" at an earlier stage than Rangers?

Because there are multiple different kind of infiltration effects.

 - One that lets the unit arrive from reserves (Skitarii infiltrators), so basically deep striking

 - One that lets you deploy the unit outside of your deployment zone during the regular deployment phase but outside their deployment zone (T'au Stealth Suits) plus the usual >9" regulation

 - One that lets you deploy the unit outside of your deployment zone during the regular deployment phase wherever you want as long as they are more than 9" away from any enemy unit

 - One that says you deploy the unit at the beginning of the first battle round

 - probably many others as well

Edited December 13, 2017 by sfPanzer

[Pendent]

It's a bit tougher against a wraith heavy army like what is described in the OP but I feel like it's worth emphasizing that we can absolutely wreck many Eldar  lists in assault with really cost efficient units. Stuff like Reivers, Scouts and Death Company with bolter/chainsword will all get some serious work done against T3 since we'll be wounding on 2's on the cahrge and Eldar aren't precisely known for their great saves.

[Karhedron]

Against Wraiths, your long range shooting will actually do better since Wraiths are slower and shorter range but very tough and deadly.

[Pendent]

Against Wraiths, your long range shooting will actually do better since Wraiths are slower and shorter range but very tough and deadly.

Yeah, like I said that's a sort of different deal. My gut says that we'd want to heavily leverage our mobility against them but they do have access to Wave Serpents and the like so in the end those wraiths will get where they need to be.

 

The really obnoxious thing is that Wraithguard are now T6, meaning that the huge amount of S5 shooting we can put out is much less effective. I think the best option is our codex against wraithguard in particular would probably be plasma Inceptors since you can just kite and then redeploy using Upon Wings of Fire.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I'd keep calm. If he mainly runs Iyanden he is pulling punches (-1 to hit is better), and that wraith knight isn't the terror it used to be.

 

The units you've listed also tend to eat through points in a hurry a wraith knight, 2 units of wraiths, a hemlock would be over a 1000 points. I'm willing to bet that he has serpents for the wraiths (and probably a 3rd unit) so its more like 1500, after HQs and troops he isn't going to be able to fit in all the tricks that elder have. If he isn't running serpents than he probably plans on deep striking the wraiths which is going to eat through a lot of his CPs.  

 

I really can't emphasize that last point enough I really think that people see how many combos elder have available and do more to hinder their own plans that what would have happened if you forced us to use a stratagem.