Grim Resolve is a solid chapter tactic

[FerociousBeast]

Wanted to throw this out there to counteract all the negativity around Grim Resolve right now. Current "meta" opinion on Grim Resolve is that it's too limiting, not good enough, doesn't help my Ravenwing, etc. Well, I think you can only come to this conclusion if you aren't reasonably comparing it to other Chapter Tactics, so I'm going to attempt to do that right now.

 

The common criticism is that many units in your army aren't going to be able to use it effectively, and to use it you must forego an entire phase of the game, movement.

 

I would counter this criticism by saying that almost all Chapter Tactics fall prey to similar criticisms in one way or another. Let's take a look at the Blood Angels' "Chapter Tactic," Red Thirst, which is currently enjoying some good press. It only applies to those in close combat. So while your Devastators and Aggressors and other shooty units CAN use it when they charge, they're not often going to be charging. So, like Grim Resolve, it's situational in its value, but unlike Grim Resolve, very few people are complaining.

 

Let's take a look at the Ultramarines' tactic, which has a lot of similarity to the Dark Angels'. I'm choosing the UMs because I've heard people say things like, "Grim Resolve sucks! Look at the UMs' tactic which is always useful!" Well, again, I don't think this holds water at all. Adding 1 Leadership to all units is similar to Grim Resolve's max 1 casualty, and the better one is going to be dependent upon each specific situation. The other part of the UM tactic is being able to shoot after falling back. Well, for this to kick in, a unit has to fall back... How situational is that? I imagine a DA Tactical Squad standing and shooting is going to happen far more often than a UM Tac Squad falling back. 

 

I could go on, but scanning thru the list of Chapter Tactics and equivalents, I think Grim Resolve is comfortably in the upper half. Just because not all units in the DA codex can get the same value from the tactic doesn't make it a bad tactic. That's the case to one degree or another for all Chapter Tactics and faction abilities in every codex.

[Stoic Raptor]

The other part of the UM tactic is being able to shoot after falling back. Well, for this to kick in, a unit has to fall back... How situational is that? I imagine a DA Tactical Squad standing and shooting is going to happen far more often than a UM Tac Squad falling back. 

 

You've clearly never played Ultramarines, have you?  That tactic gives you a considerable amount of mobility.  Advance while firing assault weapons, charge, fight and then fall back.  fire overwatch on the counter-charge and mop up whatever is left.

 

Or fall back as your enemy closes the range to draw them into a kill-box or envelop them.

 

That tactic grants a frightening amount of mobility to the army - almost like blitzkrieg on foot.  To those commanders who understand how to use it, it allows a considerable amount of control as to the tempo of the battle.  Your enemy has to fight on your terms, at all times.

 

There is nothing "situational" about that Chapter Tactic, except perhaps the likelihood of a player to understand its proper use.  

[FlamingDeth]

I dunno, Grim Resolve doesn’t seem terrible to me, but I haven’t been Ravenwing heavy since 5th edition. I do see the main benefit being not having to run HQs to babysit backfield units, which will be a great boon to the theoretic tenth company list I’ll be building now that we have the tools to make it not suck.

 

EDIT: I should say not suck as bad, I have no illusions that a purely fluff-based army is going to be top tier competitive or anything.

Edited December 12, 2017 by CardinalVirtue

[Corswain]

With some thought, it does seem very fluffy in a combined force - Greenwing are the unmoving anvil, Deathwing are the hammer and Ravenwing are the flankers/homing beacons for Deathwing.

 

If you wanna run pure Greenwing it seems like it will be less effective.

[FerociousBeast]

 

The other part of the UM tactic is being able to shoot after falling back. Well, for this to kick in, a unit has to fall back... How situational is that? I imagine a DA Tactical Squad standing and shooting is going to happen far more often than a UM Tac Squad falling back. 

 

You've clearly never played Ultramarines, have you?  That tactic gives you a considerable amount of mobility.  Advance while firing assault weapons, charge, fight and then fall back.  fire overwatch on the counter-charge and mop up whatever is left.

 

Or fall back as your enemy closes the range to draw them into a kill-box or envelop them.

 

That tactic grants a frightening amount of mobility to the army - almost like blitzkrieg on foot.  To those commanders who understand how to use it, it allows a considerable amount of control as to the tempo of the battle.  Your enemy has to fight on your terms, at all times.

 

There is nothing "situational" about that Chapter Tactic, except perhaps the likelihood of a player to understand its proper use.  

 

 

First, I'm not saying the UM ability is bad, or that it doesn't "give you a considerable amount of mobility." I am saying, though, that, yes, it is situational. How many times is a specific UM unit going to fall back in a game? Once? Well, it's not hard for even a mobile Ravenwing or Deathwing unit to find it useful to sit still for one turn, and as for a gunline, this ability's going to kick into effect most turns, and often even in the opponent's turn during Overwatch.

[Stoic Raptor]

 

 How many times is a specific UM unit going to fall back in a game? 

 

Every chance they get.  I had hoped I'd made that very clear.  If you haven't played as (or against) an Ultramarine commander who understands the proper use of this tactic, you may think it's a rare occurrence.

 

I guarantee you, face someone who knows its proper use, and you'll no longer see it as situational or a once-per-battle event.  You'll find yourself out of range to return fire, chasing your opponent across the board, caught in crossfires, and unable to keep an enemy unit locked in combat.

 

You know all the frustration people have over Flying units being able to fall back from a combat and return fire while doing so?  Well, apply that to an entire army.

 

You might want to stop into the Ultramarine forum and ask a few questions about the proper use of this tactic, I'm sure there are many players there who could further enlighten you and dispel the notion that their Chapter Tactic is "situational". And that extra point of Ld doesn't hurt, either - I've never met nor heard of a UM player who's lost a model to a Morale roll.

[The Unseen]

Except, against actual dedicated melee units, the UM "fall back and shoot" tactic doesn't help at all. If you take a round of combat with Berzerkers, Ork or genestealer hordes, or terminators, most units are just dead, or so crippled they may as well be. The Ultra's tactics does indeed let you charge into other weak but shooty units and then make them give up their shooting while retaining your own, but it still doesn't work in all situations against all enemies. Please, go ahead and charge an average ultramarine unit into my DC Squad, I'll enjoy the extra consolidate move.

Grim Resolve is IMO pretty damn good. How can having a free captain bubble be bad? I'm just happy that the DA tactic rewards running a mixed army again, for way to long playing Dark Angels has been "White Scars, but painted black" or Deathwing, there are 8 other companies you know.

[Helycon]

While it's not necessarily bad, it's not on par with a lot of the other chapter- or legion tactics.

 

The captain bubble talk you can skip, it's not the same, since it is a tactical hindrance. You can't reposition your units to regain line of sight with Grim Resolve, whereas with a captain, you can.

 

The fact it doesn't apply to a lot of units is false, but a lot of units again need to drop the thing they're good at to receive it.

 

The Blood Angels one is incredibly good. It always works, even on devastators who might get charged. They will simply wound easier. Same applies to a shooty dread. It just benefits the assault units more since it's their sole purpose. it's a charge deterrent for the shooty units to keep them safe. Wipe us out or get smacked back.

 

The UM one is good too, and sure, you won't charge anything that will massacre you afterwards. You can tie up a lot of units however and when used tactically, you can manoeuvre quite handily and use that to gain an advantage, like Ulfgrim said. You can tie up a tank, save your tacticals that way, fall back and use that melta you have in there still, whilst gunning some more chaff with the bolters.

 

The Ravenguard tactic is incredible and will most certainly work for 75% of your units if you screen them well.

 

These are just SM tactics. Some of the Eldar, Guard, CSM or Tyranid tactics are just as good as the ones mentioned above, if not better.

 

Grim resolve is very good for long range units, is very good for creating a perimeter, but does limit your tactical options in the meantime. If you compare them to the former, it's just an OK tactic, which suits the theme and fluff well, but is nowhere near as powerful. It's difficult for a lot of people to see Dark Angels getting the short stwraw I guess.

[Syphid]

So with the talk of Assaulting, shooting, falling back, and shooting again... which weapon work best for Intercessor with Grim Resolve and our various strategems and warlord traits? Assault to advance, shoot, and fall back with intractable, or rapid fire/heavy Boltguns to stand and shoot? I'm rebuilding my we,y and I'm trying to decide how to best match wargear to our chapter traits.

[Berzul]

I'd say grim resolve wont change that you need to MOVE to get places you can then hold with the USR.

 

Id go assault, as that gives you better overall damage output during the entirety lf a battle, as ypu position around holdable grpund to hold it grimmly... and with resolve

[themortalgod]

I think the main reason Grim Resolve it taking so much criticism is because it is almost completely useless for the thematically "unique" aspects of the chapter which are the units which draw players to DA in the first place. 

 

Players don't become Dark Angels fans because they want to play a "green" version of a non-descript vanilla chapter. They are attracted to Dark Angels because of the Ravenwing and Deathwing. (not all, but I'd surmise most) 

 

Grim Resolve is mostly useless for DW and RW armies who don't really care about the moral benefit and are both often constantly on the move so never taking advantage of the re-roll perk. 

In contrast, other chapter traits, while they may not be useful for every unit in an army, they are useful for parts of most armies so you almost always feel like you get usage out of them during the game. But with Grim Resolve, if you are running a purely DW/RW force its entirely likely that your chapter tactic won't come into play at all for the entire game. Thats why I feel many Dark Angels players are upset, especially when coupled with the fact that it feels like DW were left largely to rot with nothing added to help them overcome their extreme weaknesses right now. (not to mention all of the obvious oversights throughout the codex)

 

A similar equivalent would have been if they had say given World Eaters or Blood Angels a trait that is useless for close combat units or if they were to give Tau a trait designed to buff their assault potential. A well designed faction trait compliments the core thematic elements of the army and promotes building an army within the theme of the faction. The Dark Angels faction trait is the opposite, it promotes creating a generic army and dissuades taking the most thematic elements since those elements gain the least benefit from the trait.

I think  better choice would have been to invert the trait. Instead of making it trigger the re-roll when a unit is immobile, have it trigger re-rolling so long as the model moved closer to an enemy unit during its preceding movement phase. This would thematically fit better with the sense of grim resolve as it shows the staunch focus on achieving the objective regardless of threat. It also would flip things so it is now most useful for RW and DW while it isn't as useful for vanilla style gunlines. (though it still does help the gunline a bit too since it lessens the penalty if they need to move)

Edited December 13, 2017 by themortalgod

[Brother Captain Ed]

Ultramarine here.

 

The UM tactic is really good (though the Salamander tactic is best). Both points brought up are valid: I play my army knowing that I can fall back and shoot and it comes up at least once in most games. But...it comes up once in most games. Yes, canny UM generals use it whenever possible. But canny *opponents* don't get burned on it twice. Dedicated melee units will do too many casualties and dedicated shooting units will target accordingly. Plus, the new pile in and consolidate rules make it very easy to trap a unit in combat. Ironically, it works consistently best on my bikes. They are fast enough, tough enough, and shoot enough to make hay with it even if things aren't ideal.

 

I do think Grim Resolve is good, though. Devastators and Hellblasters are critical units this edition. In many cases they are gonna park in a ruin and hurt things. Grim Resolve frees them from a captain to babysit. Plus, DAs have the best Hellblasters in the game now. Yeah, it's not as good as the bubble, but it's boardwide and it's free. Plus, you are still likely to have the bubble where you are assaulting anyway. (Though I'm blown away y'all can't take a captain on a bike.)

 

It's a very solid chapter tactic. Perhaps not one to write home about. But you will use it every game unless you are a dedicated Ravenwing speed freak. (And more power to you if you are.)

[Phoebus]

I think the main reason Grim Resolve it taking so much criticism is because it is almost completely useless for the thematically "unique" aspects of the chapter which are the units which draw players to DA in the first place. 

 

Players don't become Dark Angels fans because they want to play a "green" version of a non-descript vanilla chapter. They are attracted to Dark Angels because of the Ravenwing and Deathwing. (not all, but I'd surmise most) 

 

Grim Resolve is mostly useless for DW and RW armies who don't really care about the moral benefit and are both often constantly on the move so never taking advantage of the re-roll perk. 

Nailed it.

 

If you look at the White Scars, the focus is always on speed and mobility. Their Chapter Tactics follow suit. Likewise, the Space Wolves are not a Codex Chapter that also has wolf-themed units. The Blood Angels, who parallel us quite nicely in terms of Codex design, can certainly invest in more-or-less Codex-appropriate Battle Companies and supporting assets, but the units that define the Chapter are the Honour Guard, Death Company, and jump pack-equipped Assault Squads, and the rules are geared toward them. Where the Dark Angels are concerned, emphasis is placed on the combined arms strike forces, but it's the Deathwing and the Ravenwing that are the decisive arms. The rules - particularly the Chapter's defining trait - should reflect this.

[SnakeChisler]

The Ravenwing & Deathwing haven't been troops since 6th while Ravenwing as an army had a bit of a swansong in 7th due to double jink GW positioned Space Marine armies round a core of tactical Marines and now Intercessors.

 

Grim Resolve reinforces that core mantra boots on the ground

 

Is it useful for the Deathwing / Ravenwing? Probably not

Is it fluffy? Yes

 

I personally think it's very good mostly because it feels very thematic, how useful it will be will depend on army composition and playing style.

 

Saying it's no use to Deathwing is moot anyway terminators in this edition are pretty unplayable, the high cost, lacklustre firepower and restricted movement means your playing them coz you want to which was also the case in 7th.

Game format has also changed from 6th with the introduction of progressive objectives even more so with chapter approved.

 

The codex has a lot of subtle interactions and we've some decent stratagems, I can see scout snipers with an Lt being popular

 

If you want to fall back and shoot then I believe we have a stratagem for that

[shabbadoo]

Which units in the codex do not have Grim Resolve?

[Helycon]

Which units in the codex do not have Grim Resolve?

It applies to infantry, bikers and dreadnoughts.

[Syphid]

 

Which units in the codex do not have Grim Resolve?

It applies to infantry, bikers and dreadnoughts.

Not landspeeders? That's unfortunate.

[Phoebus]

The Ravenwing & Deathwing haven't been troops since 6th while Ravenwing as an army had a bit of a swansong in 7th due to double jink GW positioned Space Marine armies round a core of tactical Marines and now Intercessors.

 

Grim Resolve reinforces that core mantra boots on the ground

 

Is it useful for the Deathwing / Ravenwing? Probably not

Is it fluffy? Yes

 

I personally think it's very good mostly because it feels very thematic, how useful it will be will depend on army composition and playing style.

 

Saying it's no use to Deathwing is moot anyway terminators in this edition are pretty unplayable, the high cost, lacklustre firepower and restricted movement means your playing them coz you want to which was also the case in 7th.

Game format has also changed from 6th with the introduction of progressive objectives even more so with chapter approved.

I don't think there's a disagreement regarding Grim Resolve being fluffy. It's a question of priorities. When people think "Dark Angels," the initial ideas that spring up are about the Inner Circle, the Deathwing, the Ravenwing, and so on. Mostly uninitiated "boots on the ground" battle-brethren come a distant also-ran. Grim Resolve as the Chapter Tactic is... like giving the White Scars something that predominately applies to infantry models because technically they make up the preponderance of the force. If Grim Resolve is absolutely necessary, it could've been something provided by a Character's aura or something, leaving the Chapter Tactic open for something that pertains to the decisive arm of the Chapter.

 

You're spot on, though, in pointing out that the issue we're discussing is symptomatic to a core problem: that the Deathwing has been some flavor of underwhelming or outright handicapped for some time now. Hence my point earlier: the Dark Angels need to be re-considered from the ground up.

[Lysere]

Something to keep in mind is your characters. If you're primarily focusing on deathwing where do you think you'll have a captain or equivalent? With the deathwing probably, same for ravenwing.

 

It gives dark angels the ability to maintain partial rerolls while being able to take specialized characters to support their more elite aspects. Marines have a plethora of useful characters to choose from and grim resolve frees up some of those slots that would normally be used to babysit the ranged units and use them instead for the more interesting aspects of your army, the ones that probably won't be getting much out of the chapter tactic.

[FerociousBeast]

Deathwing and Ravenwing have their own rules! Don’t overlook that. If the DA chapter tactic focused on synergy for DW and RW, as arguably it did in a manner of speaking in the Jervis Johnson dex, then the Greenwing would again be screwed and those who focus on them or the codex as a whole—yes, we do exist—would be far more screwed than the DW/RW players claim to be now.

 

Instead, we have a broadly useful and very thematic rule that, while not optimized for DW/RW, can yet be used by them to good effect. While meanwhile certain other units become incredibly powerful thru it.

 

As far as chapter tactics go, that’s a pretty good place to be. Job’s a good ‘un, boyz.

[Helycon]

Deathwing and Ravenwing have their own rules! Don’t overlook that. If the DA chapter tactic focused on synergy for DW and RW, as arguably it did in a manner of speaking in the Jervis Johnson dex, then the Greenwing would again be screwed and those who focus on them or the codex as a whole—yes, we do exist—would be far more screwed than the DW/RW players claim to be now.

 

Instead, we have a broadly useful and very thematic rule that, while not optimized for DW/RW, can yet be used by them to good effect. While meanwhile certain other units become incredibly powerful thru it.

 

As far as chapter tactics go, that’s a pretty good place to be. Job’s a good ‘un, boyz.

if you're using Grim Resolve on RW or DW, you've already won the game really. They should never remain still. The former because they are great for objective grabbing, the latter because they're too slow to not move them .

 

Ravenwing has Jink, which is a great rule, but not very useful on a lot of units, since the majority doesn't have assault weaponry. Yes, we have a stratagem, but that only works so often with limited amounts of CP.

 

The DW immunity to morale is laughable at best and not an actual rule as such. Losing so many terminators that morale kicks in with a reroll AND grim resolve's morale component is just never happening. Why not add the fantastic warlord trait of the leadership bubble towards the combo while we're at it.

 

Its a shame they synergy with our chapter tactic is just not meant for the units that actually add flavour to the army. I reckon that's what annoys most people, and in that regard, I agree with them. I do love Jink and they should have really named it the RW chapter tactic, because it sort of is, but I would have liked it to be something that was usable by all RW. Have it be a 5++ for moving a minimum distance, whilst advancing makes it a 4++.

 

DW should have had something unique too that is useful, not the morale bonus on morale bonus on immunity. Maybe have them be relentless? That would make more sense. Or maybe shoot whilst advancing at -1 for all weapons?

[cernunnos]

I don't think there's a disagreement regarding Grim Resolve being fluffy. It's a question of priorities. When people think "Dark Angels," the initial ideas that spring up are about the Inner Circle, the Deathwing, the Ravenwing, and so on. Mostly uninitiated "boots on the ground" battle-brethren come a distant also-ran. Grim Resolve as the Chapter Tactic is... like giving the White Scars something that predominately applies to infantry models because technically they make up the preponderance of the force. If Grim Resolve is absolutely necessary, it could've been something provided by a Character's aura or something, leaving the Chapter Tactic open for something that pertains to the decisive arm of the Chapter.

 

 

 

 

I think this probably sums up why I am quite happy with Grim Resolve benefitting mostly greenwing.  It seems to me that for a lot of the time Dark Angels players haven't really been Dark Angels players but Deathwing players, Ravenwing players or a mix of the two.  Grim Resolve gives the greenwing element a bit of flavour to seperate it from other chapter's battle companies.  Hopefully it stops the greenwing side being a mere "distant also-ran" and rather one of the fundamental facets of the chapter alongside Deathwing, Ravenwing and Inner Circle. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by cernunnos

[Orkinstein]

I think Grim Resolve is very good for our dreadnought Edited December 14, 2017 by Orkinstein

[Phoebus]

 

I don't think there's a disagreement regarding Grim Resolve being fluffy. It's a question of priorities. When people think "Dark Angels," the initial ideas that spring up are about the Inner Circle, the Deathwing, the Ravenwing, and so on. Mostly uninitiated "boots on the ground" battle-brethren come a distant also-ran. Grim Resolve as the Chapter Tactic is... like giving the White Scars something that predominately applies to infantry models because technically they make up the preponderance of the force. If Grim Resolve is absolutely necessary, it could've been something provided by a Character's aura or something, leaving the Chapter Tactic open for something that pertains to the decisive arm of the Chapter.

 

I think this probably sums up why I am quite happy with Grim Resolve benefitting mostly greenwing.  It seems to me that for a lot of the time Dark Angels players haven't really been Dark Angels players but Deathwing players, Ravenwing players or a mix of the two.  Grim Resolve gives the greenwing element a bit of flavour to seperate it from other chapter's battle companies.  Hopefully it stops the greenwing side being a mere "distant also-ran" and rather one of the fundamental facets of the chapter alongside Deathwing, Ravenwing and Inner Circle. 

 

That's the problem, though: the Battle and Reserve Companies are not a fundamental facet of the Chapter and - no offense intended - it doesn't make sense to make them that. At best, they're the "face" the Chapter presents to the Imperium. "Look at us, we're Codex! Our strike forces are led by a Captain or a Chaplain, they're largely based on a Battle Company or a Demi-Company, they have Reserve Company assets, Scouts, Bikers, and Terminators!"

 

Think about Alexander the Great's army as a historical example. The majority of his core force were Macedonian phalangites. They were just a supporting arm, though. The decisive arm were a more mobile infantry elite and his cavalry. Those are the guys who actually won his battles for him. It's more or less the same thing with the Dark Angels. For several editions now, it's the Deathwing who deliver the decisive, killing blow, and it's the Ravenwing who provide the penultimate maneuver to achieve that.

[SnakeChisler]

That's a good point about Ravenwing 4++ as a chapter buff even if I only use it say on the Shroud it's pretty big

 

I think people are missing the point with the morale and Deathwing it's a super powerful trait given that just looking at our dex in isolation we have multiple ways of manipulating leadership no doubt others have as well.

 

Stratagem wise Deathwing didn't do bad and we have a warlord trait to re-roll charges also believe there's something about dropping inside 9" if your within 6" of a bike.

 

I kind of sigh inside when I read the negativity from Deathwing players it's years now this gripe of wanna play Deathwing only has been like an open sore that you just won't let heal with a brief period of a 6th ed codex and a 7th ed rulebook giving them a null deplyment option.

 

8th has a min 50% deployment requirement and you don't want to be putting expensive terminators in the backfield and even eternal war missions are getting progressive elements introduced via chapter approved.

 

As more stuff comes out the more I'm liking the chapter trait