Grim Resolve is a solid chapter tactic

[Brother Vod]

Stratagem wise Deathwing didn't do bad and we have a warlord trait to re-roll charges also believe there's something about dropping inside 9" if your within 6" of a bike.

 

 

There's a tactical objective - Flawless Strategy - Score 1 VP if one or more DW arrive using teleport strike and were setup within 12" of the enemy. If your units were also setup within 6" of a RW unit score D3 VP instead

[shabbadoo]

Okay then. Seeing as *ALL* Chapter Tactics only apply to Infantry, Bikers, and Dreadnoughts, and Grim Resolve is no different, Grim Resolve is a decent Chapter Tactic. Is it universally useful for all of our units of these types? No, but the other Chapter Tactics are not universally useful either.  Also, NONE of the other Chapter tactics gets better to the degree that ours does when you roll more dice, and there will be a lot more Grim Resolve related shooting re-rolls made than any other Chapter Tactic. That is a HUGE feature that one must be sure to factor in.

 

The Ultramarines Codex Discipline ability works well with many units so far as falling back and shooting, but especially well for units that wish to get up close and happen to shoot better than they Assault. Perfect examples would be Sternguard and the "lowly" Tactical Squad. Most up-close and personal units will have pistols, and so be able to shoot without the -1 falling back penalty anyways just by staying in close combat, even if they are restricted to targeting units engaged with them. So, some targeting choice and maneuvering when falling back is offered in the Ultramarines' abilty. The Morale benefit is different, but roughly equivalent to that of Grim Resolve considering how often it will be a factor (i.e. not often). Overall, Grim Resolve is comparable. Different capabilities, but equitably useful. Codex Discipline is more about Morale and Maneuver/Targeting, whereas Grim Resolve is more about Morale and Execution (by firing squad). Very different abilities, but it is very easy to see how each can be used to affect the game....um...effectively.  I have to give the edge to Grim Resolve, or at the least say that, overall, I prefer the benefits of Grim Resolve to those of Codex Discipline.

 

The White Scars' Lightning Assault ability best suits Bikers, though any eligible units can use it. A useful ability, especially for Bikers, but Bikers are not exactly the most effective of assault units, excepting unit sergeants and bike-mounted characters. Also, while this is a pro-active ability, it does require units using it to make themselves vulnerable by putting themselves "out there." The extra 2" movement when Advancing give a bit more movement, but at the cost of not being able to Assault in most cases. Considering the importance of shooting in general (any edition), I think Grim Resolve is decidedly superior.

 

The Imperial Fists Siege Masters ability is certainly useful, but doesn't apply to enemies not in cover or that are not a Building. granted, cover should be almost everywhere on the battlefield, but it seldom is there to the extent that this ability will be a big feature. building are also seldom so present that this abi8lity will be imminently useful. As we use lots of terrain, it would be enjoyable to fight a battle in the ruins with the boys in yellow having cover, yet taking it away form the enemy, but I prefer what Grim Resolve has to offer over this.

 

The Black Templars' Righteous Zeal ability is pretty useful, and all units able to use it can put it to good use. But, they have to get close (er) to use it. Not a bad ability, but once again I prefer Grim Resolve.

 

The Salamander's Master Artisans ability is always useful, by all Infantry, Biker, and Dreadnought units, but it is only one re-roll to hit and wound per unit. Grim Resolve overall compares well enough to that. And there is the Morale bit and the Overwatch aspect bit, which together gives us a nice "Take this objective from our cold dead hands!" thing going on. Overall, I think Grim Resolve has the advantage here - especially when more shooting dice are rolled.

 

The Raven Guard's Shadow Master ability, which reduces the number of hits applicable units will take at greater than short range by 1/6, is pretty dang good! Add in other protective factors (like +1/+2 to saves from cover/camo cloaks) and Raven Guard get even more resilient. Very solid defensive ability overall, but as I do prefer more proactive abilities I prefer Grim Resolve over this one too.

 

As an Iron Hands player, would you really want to be showing off how many 6's you will NOT be rolling when you make use of The Flesh Is Weak? Do your worst, enemies of the Iron Hands! I prefer proactive abilities, though this one is utterly fluffy for the Iron hands. Would be nice if they had something they could use that would not require being hit, wounded, and failing an armor save though. At least it works against ALL wounds (unless they FAQ'd it to not to work against Mortal Wounds, which would suck). I give Grim Resolve the advantage here again.

 

Space Wolves just have the Index Imperium at this point, and no Chapter Tactics or equivalent. Hopefully that will change.

 

[EDIT] And then we have the Blood Angels' Red Thirst ability which gives them +1 to wound!!! (not +1 Str, which would be a less good) when Charging/being Charged/using Heroic Intervention. Regular BA's with chainswords will pile on the wounds, let alone veterans with even more attacks. Then there are the Black Rage units. Pretty good ability overall, and it is really hard to knock it considering all of the Blood Angels units that are well-suited for close combat. But it "only" works in close combat. Grim Resolve works with standard Shooting, Overwatch, and even shooting with pistols in Close combat in subsequent turns. But we only re-roll 1's. Still, that is more opportunities, and those close combat shooting casualties are removed before choppy time happens too. And there is the minor Morale boost. And we will be very likely able to shoot Blood Angels at least two times (one of them Overwatch) before they even get to use their abilities against us. All that said, I think the Blood Angels have a comparably good ability. It is more situational than ours, but it is very good in that situation. And so I wouldn't particularly favor one ability over the other; especially considering the make-up of the forces players of each Chapter are likely to field so as to make decent use of their Chapter Tactics. It is hard to say if Grim Resolve wins out over Red Thirst, but it just might have the edge in causing enough casualties before the Blood Angels can get to grips with us. Grim Resolve certainly isn't horrible in comparison to Red Thirst.

 

Last, Grim Resolve makes plasma oh so much better, and that is very important for most Dark Angels forces.

 

I guess any upset Dark Angels players (i.e us) ought to be shutting their pie holes about now. We don't have it bad in any way whatsoever, at least in regard to what our Chapter Tactics ability does overall. Grim Resolve is not universally useful, but it is very easy to *CHOOSE* to make it so (and so make use of it), and that can't be said of all of the other Chapter Tactics.

Edited December 14, 2017 by shabbadoo

[TheFinisher4Ever]

And then we have the Blood Angels who now have a codex. Had to wait to see the codex for this one. Wow. Blood Angels have NO Chapter Tactics. There is Black Rage, but only certain units have this ability (Lemartes, Tycho the Lost, Death Company, Death Company Dreadnoughts), and they pay points for it. Red Thirst is gone too. So...um, yeah..I guess I will be giving Grim Resolve the advantage over NOTHING. Seriously, what the hell is up with that? There must be an FAQ stating, "We're sorry, but we accidentally left out your Chapter Tactics! Here they are!" right? No? That sucks all manner of things, excepting blood.

The Blood Angels definitely do have a chapter tactic. It's the Red Thirst and it's certainly not gone. It's really freaking good actually. It is +1 to wound when you charge or are charged.

[march10k]

Okay then. Seeing as *ALL* Chapter Tactics only apply to Infantry, Bikers, and Dreadnoughts, and Grim Resolve is no different, Grim Resolve is a decent Chapter Tactic. Is it universally useful for all of our units of these types? No, but the other Chapter Tactics are not universally useful either.  Also, NONE of the other Chapter tactics gets better to the degree that ours does when you roll more dice, and there will be a lot more Grim Resolve related shooting re-rolls made than any other Chapter Tactic. That is a HUGE feature that one must be sure to factor in.

This.  I especially love how BoLS called our chapter tactic "situational" in comparison to Blood Angels.  ~tears of mirth~  That one works on charges and heroic interventions...which naturally every unit does every turn.  Wait....

 

A chapter tactic that lets you set your plasma on 'high' and then break off the selector lever is anything but 'meh.' 

 

But I like it in large part because it only works if you don't move.  The earliest DA army I can remember playing (mid-third) had a few odds and ends like termies and a predator, but it was built on a core of 3x10 stubborn-sergeant-led plas/plas tactical squads.  It was an immovable object daring you to wade through their fire and punch them.   That's how I see DA battle companies.  Planting their feet in a good place to die and pouring on the dakka.  Grim resolve captures that perfectly.

 

Maybe if you're a ravenwing player, it's not such a great chapter tactic.  Maybe if the second company gets a sub-codex, they'll get something more suitable.  But the point is that they're one company out of ten that probably gets 50% or more of the tabletop presence.   So they need a better chapter tactic, but the one that they have is actually just right for the chapter they belong to.

[FerociousBeast]

And again... Ravenwing gets Jink, which is no one’s definition of a bad ability, so... I’m not crying too many tears for them. Deathwing, maybe, but Ravenwing is doing pretty well so far in the new dex.

 

I also laughed at the BoLS article. But hey, what do you expect from the people who have claimed in at least three separate articles that the Lion being healed is some how news... Yeah, since 2nd edition!

Edited December 14, 2017 by FerociousBeast

[shabbadoo]

 

And then we have the Blood Angels who now have a codex. Had to wait to see the codex for this one. Wow. Blood Angels have NO Chapter Tactics. There is Black Rage, but only certain units have this ability (Lemartes, Tycho the Lost, Death Company, Death Company Dreadnoughts), and they pay points for it. Red Thirst is gone too. So...um, yeah..I guess I will be giving Grim Resolve the advantage over NOTHING. Seriously, what the hell is up with that? There must be an FAQ stating, "We're sorry, but we accidentally left out your Chapter Tactics! Here they are!" right? No? That sucks all manner of things, excepting blood.

The Blood Angels definitely do have a chapter tactic. It's the Red Thirst and it's certainly not gone. It's really freaking good actually. It is +1 to wound when you charge or are charged.

Yep, I failed to find it near stratagems (never skim! ). Edited it in there. Red Book goes back on the shelf where it belongs, and now it is back to waiting for the Green Book.

Edited December 14, 2017 by shabbadoo

[shabbadoo]

 

Maybe if you're a ravenwing player, it's not such a great chapter tactic.  Maybe if the second company gets a sub-codex, they'll get something more suitable.  But the point is that they're one company out of ten that probably gets 50% or more of the tabletop presence.   So they need a better chapter tactic, but the one that they have is actually just right for the chapter they belong to.

 

Ravening can always choose to sit still though, and at close range are able to pump out 4 bolter shots per bike (2 with plasma), re-rolling 1's.

[FerociousBeast]

Regarding BA v. DA tactics, Red Thirst will have a much bigger effect when it kicks into effect than Grim Resolve, but Grim Resolve will kick into effect far more often for most DA lists.

 

I mean, 8th edition has been criticized as being the "gunline n' hordes" edition, and what better to abuse that emphasis than Grim Resolve?

 

But on another note, I think in a weird way Grim Resolve can actually promote some melee lists! Another criticism that's often leveled at Grim Resolve is: "Who needs Grim Resolve? I can get the same effect by babysitting my gunline with a Master." To which the common, very sensible reply is: "Well, now you can save the cost of that Master and buy moar dakka!" But I'd add another bit of advice: keep the Master, but kit him out for melee and send him with your Deathwing into the heart of the enemy while the boys back home keep the gunline up and running. Everyone now gets that re-roll on 1s, and you can spread your army out instead of bubbling up. Tactical flexibility, freeing up your Master for melee, reduction of the bubble effect (or rather dispersing the bubble into multiple bubbles around the table).

 

I like Grim Resolve more and more the more I think about it. It's tactically powerful, it's fluffy as hell, and it's even rooted in codex development history (3rd ed's original, misguided rule finally redeemed) -- I think GW may just have achieved a hat trick here, folks.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I concur, no pain glove for you today.

 

Carry on.

 

Blessed is the Lion's Wrath.

[Saphrael]

tl;dr - Saphrael is a curmudgeon who doesn't agree with any of the positivity on Grim Resolve, or the codex in general. However he is glad some people are happy, because he's not a complete monster.

 

Overall, Grim Resolve is comparable. Different capabilities, but equitably useful. Codex Discipline is more about Morale and Maneuver/Targeting, whereas Grim Resolve is more about Morale and Execution (by firing squad). Very different abilities, but it is very easy to see how each can be used to affect the game....um...effectively.  I have to give the edge to Grim Resolve, or at the least say that, overall, I prefer the benefits of Grim Resolve to those of Codex Discipline.

I wouldn't say they're equally useful at all, though I think members of the Ultramarines subforum can be more articulate on this point that I can.

 

I think what's missing from your comparison is that the Ultramarine ability is always useful, even when you're not using it. What I mean by that is the threat of being able to withdraw and still fire means you immediately get into your opponent's head and force decisions, which potentially causes mistakes. Then if they charge anyway you've got an ability to continue to maneuver while maintaining some damage output. Grim Resolve only works if you're playing gunline or decreasing your mobility, which is a key element to success in 8th ed. Grim Resolve is also something that can be replicated by a captain/chapter master, so it's not a unique ability (like say, Red Thirst, which can't be replicated anywhere).

But I like it in large part because it only works if you don't move.  The earliest DA army I can remember playing (mid-third) had a few odds and ends like termies and a predator, but it was built on a core of 3x10 stubborn-sergeant-led plas/plas tactical squads.  It was an immovable object daring you to wade through their fire and punch them.   That's how I see DA battle companies.  Planting their feet in a good place to die and pouring on the dakka.  Grim resolve captures that perfectly.

 

Maybe if you're a ravenwing player, it's not such a great chapter tactic.  Maybe if the second company gets a sub-codex, they'll get something more suitable.  But the point is that they're one company out of ten that probably gets 50% or more of the tabletop presence.   So they need a better chapter tactic, but the one that they have is actually just right for the chapter they belong to.

It's good for you that the current version of Grim Resolve suits your head cannon on battle companies, but that isn't really relevant for a discussion on the in-game effectiveness of the trait. I started with DA late 2nd and I remember fondly the 'Foxhole' mission at the back of the early 3rd mini-dex, so I know what you mean about reinforcing stoicism for battle companies. I suppose it's just frustrating that the two things that the older DA theme emphasises (morale and disciplined defence) aren't very relevant/effective in 8th.

 

I'd also argue that you needn't be a Ravenwing player to be frustrated by having a chapter tactic that is practically useless to a key part of the army and you shouldn't have to wait for supplements to get the most out of your chapter trait. It's not like BA bikers need a supplement to benefit from their chapter tactic.

And again... Ravenwing gets Jink, which is no one’s definition of a bad ability, so... I’m not crying too many tears for them. Deathwing, maybe, but Ravenwing is doing pretty well so far in the new dex.

I also laughed at the BoLS article. But hey, what do you expect from the people who have claimed in at least three separate articles that the Lion being healed is some how news... Yeah, since 2nd edition!

I disagree, I think Jink is a bad ability. Giving up shooting to get a 4++ on units that are primarily useful to the army because of their shooting output? That's a hellava trade-off.

 

Now obviously units like the Darkshroud and Black Knights benefit way more than regular bikers, but your average bike, attack bike, land speeder or flyer aren't very happy about Grim Resolve or Jink. This could have been completely mitigated by some cool special abilities/stratagems. It wouldn't have been hard to represent some of the very flavourful abilities that DW and RW had in 7th, eg. Hit and Run, Teleport Homers, Ravenshield, Summon the Deathwing, Attack Squadron, Vengeful Strike.

 

Ravening can always choose to sit still though, and at close range are able to pump out 4 bolter shots per bike (2 with plasma), re-rolling 1's.

Sure they can, but that kinda defeats the purpose of having a highly mobile shooting unit, which is why Grim Resolve isn't great for RW (or indeed, DW). And for the purpose of evaluating and comparing Grim Resolve to other traits, that's pretty relevant.

 

Regarding BA v. DA tactics, Red Thirst will have a much bigger effect when it kicks into effect than Grim Resolve, but Grim Resolve will kick into effect far more often for most DA lists.

 

I mean, 8th edition has been criticized as being the "gunline n' hordes" edition, and what better to abuse that emphasis than Grim Resolve?

 

But on another note, I think in a weird way Grim Resolve can actually promote some melee lists! Another criticism that's often leveled at Grim Resolve is: "Who needs Grim Resolve? I can get the same effect by babysitting my gunline with a Master." To which the common, very sensible reply is: "Well, now you can save the cost of that Master and buy moar dakka!" But I'd add another bit of advice: keep the Master, but kit him out for melee and send him with your Deathwing into the heart of the enemy while the boys back home keep the gunline up and running. Everyone now gets that re-roll on 1s, and you can spread your army out instead of bubbling up. Tactical flexibility, freeing up your Master for melee, reduction of the bubble effect (or rather dispersing the bubble into multiple bubbles around the table).

Again I disagree. BA are far more likely to be in assault than DA units are to be standing still and rolling 1s.

 

And yeah, you don't need your captain to babysit backfield fire support units... but he was never doing that anyway. He was advancing up the field near high damage output or plasma squads... which is what he still needs to do. That's why Grim Resolve is so disappointing for it's overlap with the Captain's ability, because the units that really need to reroll 1s on their shooting are mobile and so still need the captain. Hell, if the Grim Resolve let you re-roll 2s instead of 1s it would be better.

 

All of that being said, I'm really glad that some of you are happy with the dex and can see a silver lining in Grim Resolve. I wish my brain worked more like yours.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

I think Grimm Resolve is a pretty solid chapter tactic, not as good as Red Thirst and a couple of the other chapter tactic/legion traits available, but far superior to some of the others and far better than earlier incarnations of Grimm Resolve too.

[SnakeChisler]

I wouldn't swap grim resolve for red thirst for a number of reasons

 

The chapter tactic comes as a bundle with stratagems and wing abilities what everyone is focusing on is 1 part of a whole

 

For a start we have some neat deathwing stratagems which you wouldn't get if you had red thirst - honor the chapter will be devastating on DW Knights (fight twice), deathwing assault - shoot twice it may seem a bit meeeh n the surface but 20 bolt rounds with re-rolls + 2 rockets x 2 with say a talon master close by is going to clear  horde type units if you go the full 10 man squad then?

 

We've got something for everyone in this book, I'm quite excited and am looking forward to putting together a deathwing force it will however have 3 troop choices & ravenwing support. Its never going to be competitive but it will be fun and fairly good at club nights. 

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

I wouldn't swap grim resolve for red thirst for a number of reasons

 

The chapter tactic comes as a bundle with stratagems and wing abilities what everyone is focusing on is 1 part of a whole

 

For a start we have some neat deathwing stratagems which you wouldn't get if you had red thirst - honor the chapter will be devastating on DW Knights (fight twice), deathwing assault - shoot twice it may seem a bit meeeh n the surface but 20 bolt rounds with re-rolls + 2 rockets x 2 with say a talon master close by is going to clear  horde type units if you go the full 10 man squad then?

 

We've got something for everyone in this book, I'm quite excited and am looking forward to putting together a deathwing force it will however have 3 troop choices & ravenwing support. Its never going to be competitive but it will be fun and fairly good at club nights.

 

That's a fair point actually, I do think Grimm Resolve and our wing traits and stratagems, warlord traits, pshycic powers, and to a lesser extent relics are very good and synergies well with our units and reflect our fluff well, just as Red Thirst et al synergies well with the BA's available units and reflect their fluff. I just think that in a complete vacuum, comparing chapter tactics and chapter tactics only, Red Thirs seems a little more powerful, but fluff wise it wouldn't suit us as all, so it's kind of a moot point. I'm just glad that GW seem to be coming up with rules that are fluffy and reflect the fighting styles and background of all the armies and codexes that they've released so far.

[Phoebus]

But I like it in large part because it only works if you don't move.  The earliest DA army I can remember playing (mid-third) had a few odds and ends like termies and a predator, but it was built on a core of 3x10 stubborn-sergeant-led plas/plas tactical squads.  It was an immovable object daring you to wade through their fire and punch them.   That's how I see DA battle companies.  Planting their feet in a good place to die and pouring on the dakka.  Grim resolve captures that perfectly.

 

Maybe if you're a ravenwing player, it's not such a great chapter tactic.  Maybe if the second company gets a sub-codex, they'll get something more suitable.  But the point is that they're one company out of ten that probably gets 50% or more of the tabletop presence.   So they need a better chapter tactic, but the one that they have is actually just right for the chapter they belong to.

 

You're cutting to the heart of the matter. Grim Resolve is a nod to earlier themes, and is almost certainly married to a marketing decision. There has been, I think it's fair to say, an obvious push toward larger-scale games in the past couple of years, and the fact of the matter is that the majority of a Dark Angels force's models are not part of the Inner Circle, the Deathwing, or the Ravenwing.

 

I will concede that what I'm hoping for is a re-evaluation of the Dark Angels as a product: one that focuses on its lore and makes them - that is, their ruleset as much as the look of the force that is fielded - more distinct than a Codex Space Marines army.

[cernunnos]

That's the problem, though: the Battle and Reserve Companies are not a fundamental facet of the Chapter and - no offense intended - it doesn't make sense to make them that. At best, they're the "face" the Chapter presents to the Imperium. "Look at us, we're Codex! Our strike forces are led by a Captain or a Chaplain, they're largely based on a Battle Company or a Demi-Company, they have Reserve Company assets, Scouts, Bikers, and Terminators!"

 

Think about Alexander the Great's army as a historical example. The majority of his core force were Macedonian phalangites. They were just a supporting arm, though. The decisive arm were a more mobile infantry elite and his cavalry. Those are the guys who actually won his battles for him. It's more or less the same thing with the Dark Angels. For several editions now, it's the Deathwing who deliver the decisive, killing blow, and it's the Ravenwing who provide the penultimate maneuver to achieve that.

 

 

Don't worry Phoebus, I don't take offense if people disagree with me.  We all work with the same source material but create our own interpretations of the chapter from that.  Online discussion about the chapter would be far duller if we all conceived of the chapter in exactly the same way. 

 

I do not wish to downplay the importance of the Hunt for the Fallen.  I guess my initial approval of Grim Resolve isn't really any kind of judgement on how well the new codex represents the hunt for the fallen.  I will have to wait until tomorrow (hopefully) to make that judgement when I can see the full rules.  Rather it is based on the fact that while the hunt for the fallen and associated Inner Circle, Deathwing and Ravenwing are a fundamental characteristic of the Dark Angels it isn't all they are.  The Dark Angels have other character traits, such as stubbornness and discipline and I think that Grim Resolve helps push these. 

 

One other thing I have noted is that Grim Resolve may actually do something to help represent the hunt for the Fallen on the tabletop.  As it seems to mostly promote static gameplay yet doesn't seem to help Deathwing and Ravenwing, it helps reinforce this spatial seperation of those privy to the secrets and those in the Dark.  The rules encourage the use of battle company forces as a firebase at arms length providing fire support rather that advancing on the enemy to enact the capture. 

Edited December 15, 2017 by cernunnos

[march10k]

I wouldn't say they're equally useful at all, though I think members of the Ultramarines subforum can be more articulate on this point that I can.

 

I think what's missing from your comparison is that the Ultramarine ability is always useful, even when you're not using it. What I mean by that is the threat of being able to withdraw and still fire means you immediately get into your opponent's head and force decisions, which potentially causes mistakes. Then if they charge anyway you've got an ability to continue to maneuver while maintaining some damage output. Grim Resolve only works if you're playing gunline or decreasing your mobility, which is a key element to success in 8th ed. Grim Resolve is also something that can be replicated by a captain/chapter master, so it's not a unique ability (like say, Red Thirst, which can't be replicated anywhere).

 

I think that's a bit exaggerated.  The "threat of being able to withdraw and still fire" is really only a thing if the unit in question is better off shooting than chopping.  There are plenty of units like that, but it's certainly not "always useful."  What's more, for a lot of units, the difference between shooting and melee is going to be marginal.  Certainly not enough to take up residence in C:UM opponent's head.  Grim resolve works when it needs to.  If you're advancing with a tactical squad, you won't shed many tears over the potential to lose a reroll on 1-2 misses.  OTOH, if you're camping in cover with hellblasters or devastators, it's hard to imagine a better chapter tactic.  It would be a pretty bad tactic if it only worked on bolters.  but rerolling half of your misses on lascannons, being able to put your plasma on 'melty' and leave it there?  Those are pretty huge.  You don't have to run a gunline to be well-served by the tactic, you just need to have some dedicated firebase units, which you should have anyway.  And "can be replicated with a captain?"  First of all, captains cost points.  Second, they can only be in one place at a time.  That's a pretty shabby alternative to a free army-wide rule!

 

 

Again I disagree. BA are far more likely to be in assault than DA units are to be standing still and rolling 1s.

 

Correction!  Being in assault isn't the standard.  It only works in a player turn in which you take or deliver a charge.  So DA units that advance into melee don't benefit very often from Grim Resolve, and BA units providing covering fire would prefer not to benefit from Red Thirst.   It's pretty much a wash. 

Edited December 15, 2017 by march10k

[shabbadoo]

Overall, Grim Resolve is comparable. Different capabilities, but equitably useful. Codex Discipline is more about Morale and Maneuver/Targeting, whereas Grim Resolve is more about Morale and Execution (by firing squad). Very different abilities, but it is very easy to see how each can be used to affect the game....um...effectively.  I have to give the edge to Grim Resolve, or at the least say that, overall, I prefer the benefits of Grim Resolve to those of Codex Discipline.

I wouldn't say they're equally useful at all, though I think members of the Ultramarines subforum can be more articulate on this point that I can.

 

I think what's missing from your comparison is that the Ultramarine ability is always useful, even when you're not using it. What I mean by that is the threat of being able to withdraw and still fire means you immediately get into your opponent's head and force decisions, which potentially causes mistakes. Then if they charge anyway you've got an ability to continue to maneuver while maintaining some damage output. Grim Resolve only works if you're playing gunline or decreasing your mobility, which is a key element to success in 8th ed. Grim Resolve is also something that can be replicated by a captain/chapter master, so it's not a unique ability (like say, Red Thirst, which can't be replicated anywhere).

I think I may have found a flaw in this line of reasoning...

 

Dark Angels Ted: "Look, Bob. The Ultramarines are threatening to do something...from across the battlefield...if we were to engage them in close combat...for some reason."

Dark Angels Bob: "Oo-oo-oh. They are in my head now. Clever. Makes me quiver in fear. I guess we'll just have to shoot them until they figure out we have no plans to engage them in the manner they would like us to."

Dark Angles Ted: "Yup."

Dark Angels Bob: "Look. They are advancing to engage us now. That's almost smart, but don't they know about all the plasma we have?"

Dark Angles Ted: "You'd think so, Bob, You'd think so. Prepare to Overwatch."

 

 

Now, I don't mean to make it sound like Codex Discipline sucks, because it doesn't. Codex Discipline works best for Bikers, as they have the movement capability to get in the enemy's face quickly and so then be able to use this ability. They can also best shoot the hell out of the enemy after disengaging (rapid fire 2 twin bolters, plus nastier weapons). Mounted units can get stuck quickly enough too, but then Grim Resolve doesn't require us to buy more expensive fast units or spend additional points on transports just to make our ability reasonably viable. The main point is that Codex Discipline requires more effort/certain units/enemy "cooperation" to make use of it more effectively, whereas all that Grim Resolve requires is standing still and shooting (not really a finesse-type ability).

Edited December 15, 2017 by shabbadoo

[Phoebus]

Don't worry Phoebus, I don't take offense if people disagree with me.  We all work with the same source material but create our own interpretations of the chapter from that.  Online discussion about the chapter would be far duller if we all conceived of the chapter in exactly the same way. 

 

I do not wish to downplay the importance of the Hunt for the Fallen.  I guess my initial approval of Grim Resolve isn't really any kind of judgement on how well the new codex represents the hunt for the fallen.  I will have to wait until tomorrow (hopefully) to make that judgement when I can see the full rules.  Rather it is based on the fact that while the hunt for the fallen and associated Inner Circle, Deathwing and Ravenwing are a fundamental characteristic of the Dark Angels it isn't all they are.  The Dark Angels have other character traits, such as stubbornness and discipline and I think that Grim Resolve helps push these. 

 

Right on, cernunnos, and I appreciate your approach to the topic. It's all good talk, and I'm just passing off my humble opinion, as well.

 

To be clear, I'm not so much worried about the Hunt for the Fallen as I am invested in a depiction of the Dark Angels that reflects what the Hunt will have done to their tactical mindset.

 

What I mean by that is, the Deathwing and the Ravenwing aren't just the Chapter's elite and its mobile reconnaissance/screening force, respectively. At the risk of sounding obvious, they are the warriors the Inner Circle handpicked to lead the Hunt. The Unforgiven don't just go after the Fallen (in fact, I'd argue this happens very rarely), but I think that history had an undeniable impact on them. The Chapter is about circles of initiation and trust. The Deathwing and the Ravenwing are those warriors the Inner Circle trusts to execute its most important tasks, and the Inner Circle in turn is comprised of the Chapter's leadership. What I'm arguing, then, is that it's counter-intuitive - unrealistic, even - for the Inner Circle to shift the tactical focus and burden of responsibility to warriors they trust less. Whether the Unforgiven are fighting Fallen Dark Angels, other Chaos Space Marines, Eldar, or Necrons, the Deathwing should be the decisive arm, the Ravenwing the means by which it's delivered most efficiently, and the balance of the Chapter providing supporting maneuver and fires.

 

Is Grim Resolve the best way to capture that? I defer to more experienced brethren, but I don't think it's a coincidence that more than one veteran has noted it's more tied to the 3rd-5th Companies.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Phoebus

[march10k]

At the same time, though, the first company, at least, almost never operates alone, or only with the 2nd company.  When it's not an operation to capture a fallen brother, the deathwing might be given the decisive task, but they'll certainly be outnumbered by bretheren from the battle companies by a factor of ten or more, and their success invariably depends on the "at all costs" completion of the supporting tasks.  When it does come to the Fallen, in the eyes of the (themselves no slouches at analyzing a tactical situation) greenwing, they're usually accepting serious casualties without being allowed to know why.  The blind faith that their superiors aren't wasting combat power and must have a very good reason for giving them a seemingly stupid suicide mission is very well captured in Grim Resolve.  Besides, stories of tragic/heroic last stands by Dark Angels abound.  If you think of it more as a chapter trait than a consicous "decision about how we wage war," then it makes a lot more sense.

[breng77]

I have little issue with Grim Resolve + Jink + inner circle as our Chapter tactic.  They are not the best tactic out there, I put them more or less on par with the second tier of space marine stratagems (Salamanders, Ultra Marines).  In each case if you want to get the best use of the tactic you must build your army to suit said tactic.  I think once stratagems are included we come out well ahead of most chapters, as +1 damage for plasma is extremely strong, DWA is a solid stratagem.  In general there are few stratagems in the SM book that are better than what DA have.

 

The issue DA have is that their best units are pretty pricey, that is where grim resolve helps if buffs their cheaper units and removes the need for them to be baby sat to be more effective.

 

Now if you want to play one of the wings as a pure army, I think you will be on the back foot, but that is probably true anyway.

[Phoebus]

At the same time, though, the first company, at least, almost never operates alone, or only with the 2nd company.  When it's not an operation to capture a fallen brother, the deathwing might be given the decisive task, but they'll certainly be outnumbered by bretheren from the battle companies by a factor of ten or more, and their success invariably depends on the "at all costs" completion of the supporting tasks.  When it does come to the Fallen, in the eyes of the (themselves no slouches at analyzing a tactical situation) greenwing, they're usually accepting serious casualties without being allowed to know why.  The blind faith that their superiors aren't wasting combat power and must have a very good reason for giving them a seemingly stupid suicide mission is very well captured in Grim Resolve.  Besides, stories of tragic/heroic last stands by Dark Angels abound.  If you think of it more as a chapter trait than a consicous "decision about how we wage war," then it makes a lot more sense.

I don’t disagree with your opening point, march10k. What I’m saying is that, outnumbered or not, the Deathwing squad(s) making up a given Dark Angels strike force plays the decisive role (or should). That’s as true of an assault as it is of a last stand. By contrast, the line company brethren are nonetheless going to play a secondary, supporting role. While Grim Resolve may capture their experiences in that regard, I question it being the showcase item.

 

But again, I recognize that this requires Games Workshop to re-evaluate what the Dark Angels mean within the context of a range of Space Marine armies.

[FerociousBeast]

I have to say, Phoebus, I disagree completely with your central point, that the greenwing should take a back seat in all things to the DW/RW. In fact one of my issues with the DAs in novels as well as codexes has always been that the GW is overshadowed to an inappropriate degree. The Deathwing and Ravenwing should take an outsized role in chapter politics and tactics in only one scenario: when there Fallen in play. In all other scenarios, they are a typical Space Marine force where the Battle Company is the central tactical unit.

[Phoebus]

That's fine, FerociousBeast. Look, at the end of the day I've offered you (well, more accurately, I offered it to cernunnos) my reasoning, and am happy to acknowledge that it stems from non-standard thoughts: on how and why this Chapter would prioritize tactical matters differently than a Codex-driven one. You're by no means obligated to agree with me, but I'm curious to hear why you think the Inner Circle would be able to divest itself of its most fundamental hang-ups and put the tactical focus and weight of effort on the formations they have less control over.

 

To be completely clear, I'm not interested in "fair" or "sensible" from our perspective. That's certainly appropriate for a properly Codex-adherent Chapter, but what I'm interested in is a product informed by the Unforgiven's unique context.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yes, but they're still Dark Angel Astartes. If they didn't trust the Greenwing to fully carry out orders as given without question, they wouldn't be in the Greenwing. It's not like the Dark Angels don't pick who progresses. Being a battle-line is the entire point of the Greenwing, to act as foot-soldiers and capture or take objectives, hold the line or advance, as ordered by their Inner Circle Company Master. They're not just random grunts that suddenly showed up. They've already made it through both being a Neophyte and Scout, under the inspection of the respective Sargeants, Chaplains, and Master of Recruits.

 

The Dark Angels are paranoid, yes, the Inner Circle most of all. I just find it absurd to suggest that they don't trust their own troops to perform the exact role they've been intensively inspected and trained for. At the end of the day, they're still a military organisation. They don't need the Deathwing there to oversee every routine Ork hunt or assault against recidivists.

 

When hints of the Fallen come to light, sure, the Deathwing/Ravenwing step forward, and the Greenwing takes two steps back and faces the other way. Other than that, the Greenwing does its thing, as any other Chapter does, and does it damn efficiently, from what we know about the Chapter as a whole.

The Chapter doesn't have a reputation for sitting back until the big boys come in and fix everything, they have a reputation for working as a methodical, merciless, killing machine that works with combined-arms tactics to annihilate all in their path.

 

If a killing blow is needed, sure, the Deathwing are there for that. Other times? The Dark Angels do it the same way they always have. With bolters and plasma being fired with grim resolve, never stopping until everything in their path is dead.

[FerociousBeast]

*snip* I'm curious to hear why you think the Inner Circle would be able to divest itself of its most fundamental hang-ups and put the tactical focus and weight of effort on the formations they have less control over. *snip*

 

Well, first, I have to wonder why you think the Inner Circle has less control over Companies III thru X? If anything, they have more control, since as we all know... Knowledge is power, guard it well :)  The Inner Circle maintains an iron grip on the whole chapter (legion?).

 

Anyway, the steady deterioration of the status and reputation of the "normal" Dark Angels in the eyes of the fans over the years has been due to GW and BL's excessive focus on the Hunt and the Inner Circle. If someone's going to write about the Dark Angels, well, there seems to be some unwritten rule in Nottingham that it better have the Fallen in it, and preferably Cypher himself. Even Purging of Kadillus, a story about the Dark Angels doing what Space Marines do, quickly turned into a launch pad for *yet another* story about big secrets, silly secrets, the Fallen, and the Keystone Cops/Inner Circle/Barney Fife shooting themselves in the foot.

 

So, while it might appear that the Deathwing and Ravenwing do everything for the Dark Angels, I'd argue this is a misconception based on GW's marketing, not rooted in the background or chapter culture.