Grim Resolve is a solid chapter tactic

[Indefragable]

To those commanders who understand how to use it, it allows a considerable amount of control as to the tempo of the battle. Your enemy has to fight on your terms, at all times.

 

This can be said about pretty much any Chapter Tactic, Legion Rite, Faction Perk, or perk.

 

Grim Resolve included.

[Lion El Jason]

 

To those commanders who understand how to use it, it allows a considerable amount of control as to the tempo of the battle. Your enemy has to fight on your terms, at all times.

This can be said about pretty much any Chapter Tactic, Legion Rite, Faction Perk, or perk.

 

Grim Resolve included.

 

 

I would say the exact opposite for Grim Resolve.  You need to fight on your terms (Stationary gunline optimal) and your enemy can counter this, for example by forcing you to move because you're out of range.

 

If you can capitalise on his having to play around your ability that can be as good as the ability itself.  In the above example if your opponent stays out of range forcing you to move, he's given up a huge amount of board position.  

[shabbadoo]

Assuming the 3rd-10th Companies have less oversight than the Deathwing and Ravenwing is just plain ludicrous. The Inner Circle not only exerts complete control over the 3rd-10th Companies, it exerts a large measure of control over most of the successor Chapters as well.  What other Chapter can say as much?  Not one.

 

Also, the Deathwing do not always enact the killing blow in every conflict (nor should they, becaus they have specific task that are not alwys related to doing that), and the Ravenwing are not always the facilitators when they are. Can, and do, they work together? Sure, but the whole Chapter works together. But, is one dependent upon the other? Hell no!  Last I checked, bikes can't drive over fortress walls, but Deathwing sure as hell can teleport into the heart of the fortress those walls are protecting (and they have). The only reason there is any hint of direct operational link between the Ravenwing and the Deathwing is due to the former rule related to teleport homers. Of course long before even this rule ever existed and many editions prior to it, we had Vet. Sgt. Naaman planting a teleport homer allowing Belial and a squad of Deathwing to teleport in and wipe out an Ork teleporta.

 

And the Deathwing and Ravenwing are not the heart and soul of the Chapter. The Greenwing are.  The Deathwing and Ravening are not the heroes of Piscina IV, but it is Naaman and his scouts and the stalwart squads of the Greenwing who did most of the fighting in the heinous battles of that Campaign, including the Battle of Kadillus Harbor and the even more brutal Battle of Koth Ridge; all accomplished without much help from the Ravenwing or Deathwing. Piscina IV is just one example, but it is as it should be, because the Deathwing and Ravenwing provide auxilliary units to battle groups scattered all over the place, just as does the 10th Company. They can not, and do not, do everything of note. They are the support, not the core, and thus not the heart and soul of the Chapter. They are also not the focal point of every battle, nor can/should they be...unless one fields only Deathwing and/or Ravenwing units in their army, which is an outright anomaly (if a fun one). Don't be mistaken about where emphasis should be placed though, because it is with the Greenwing.  Misplacing the emphasis is great for selling the latest Deathwing kit and a starter set with a bit of everything in it though, right?

 

Grim Resolve is a very suitable ability for ALL Dark Angels though. They have a history of stubborn fortitude that has been played up a bit more than usual than has been the case for other space marines who shall know no fear. The Deathwing in particular have always been this way, but not much later the Greenwing followed suit. Giving the Chapter a shooty ability that is tied to holding one's ground is enough in the character of that to be acceptable. Trying to dislodge Deathwing from an objective in cover would be particularly daunting, though Greenwing actually have more staying power (and firepower) due to the sheer numbers.  We can set up better firebases than anyone, which Deathwing and Ravenwing units can also do, but those units can also choose to do what other Chapter's equivalent units do too. It is not exactly an outrage to not be able to use an ability all of the time; especially when one actually has a choice in doing so or not.

 

I am fine with Grim Resolve, for all Dark Angels, as it really is very fluffy. I am just glad that we have a (mostly) proactive rule.

Edited December 19, 2017 by shabbadoo

[Phoebus]

Yes, but they're still Dark Angel Astartes. If they didn't trust the Greenwing to fully carry out orders as given without question, they wouldn't be in the Greenwing.

With respect, you’re trying to overly simplify the rather complex, nuanced structure of the Unforgiven. I didn’t say the Inner Circle don’t trust the battle-brothers of the line Companies to fully carry out orders. What I’m getting at is that there is a psychology that is perhaps unique to the Unforgiven, particularly within the Inner Circle and the 1st and 2nd Companies of these Chapters, that is a direct result of their mindset during/after the Scouring. The nascent Inner Circle didn’t trust most of the surviving battle-brothers with knowledge they believed was critical to the survival of the Legion (and later, the Chapters).

 

What I’m arguing is that you can’t just switch that off when it comes to who you trust with the execution of critical duties, especially when this mindset and psychology are reinforced over millennia. I believe that would be especially true because the Deathwing and the Ravenwing (and their equivalents) are the Chapter’s elite. So it’s not even a case of “all else being equal, I trust Belial to win this tactical objective.” It’s a matter of the better-trained, better-equipped, better-experienced warriors who you indisputably trust more being the ones you put the tactical focus on.

 

Being a battle-line is the entire point of the Greenwing, to act as foot-soldiers and capture or take objectives, hold the line or advance, ...

Exactly my point. They don’t capture or take objectives in a vacuum, though, and we’ve always known that a core theme of the Dark Angels has been the Deathwing seizing the critical objective. By contrast, holding the line may be thematically powerful but it’s not the doctrine through which the Chapter wins wars.

 

The Chapter doesn't have a reputation for sitting back until the big boys come in and fix everything, they have a reputation for working as a methodical, merciless, killing machine that works with combined-arms tactics to annihilate all in their path.

Correct, and we’re getting into military jargon now, but none of it and what I’m proposing are mutually exclusive. Combined arms is a condensed way of saying “I have infantry, I have artillery, I have armor, I have air power,” etc. Within that construct, you have a a primary effort, a secondary effort, and so on. You have units that “simply” provide supporting fires from a distance. Commanders make that kind of distinction - between units - all the time, and that distinction is made through considerations like experience, equipment, fighting strength, so on.

 

So the bottom line is, I’m not arguing along the lines of any broad generalization. I’m pointing out that the line Companies would allocated the responsibility of securing secondary efforts, as well as supporting maneuver and fire; that the Deathwing would be the decisive arm of the Chapter for obvious reasons; and that the Chapter’s chief doctrine should reflect this arrangement.

 

Well, first, I have to wonder why you think the Inner Circle has less control over Companies III thru X? If anything, they have more control, since as we all know... Knowledge is power, guard it well :) The Inner Circle maintains an iron grip on the whole chapter (legion?).

“Control” was a poor choice of words on my part. All I meant by it is that, absent an Interrogator-Chaplain or a Librarian, you may only have 1-2 properly initiated battle-brothers in the entire Company to observe and act on the Inner Circle’s behalf. I’m speaking to the psychology of the Chapter, not implying that the 3rd-5th Battle Companies are running around doing as they please. :)

 

Anyway, the steady deterioration of the status and reputation of the "normal" Dark Angels in the eyes of the fans over the years has been due to GW and BL's excessive focus on the Hunt and the Inner Circle. If someone's going to write about the Dark Angels, well, there seems to be some unwritten rule in Nottingham that it better have the Fallen in it, and preferably Cypher himself. Even Purging of Kadillus, a story about the Dark Angels doing what Space Marines do, quickly turned into a launch pad for *yet another* story about big secrets, silly secrets, the Fallen, and the Keystone Cops/Inner Circle/Barney Fife shooting themselves in the foot.

 

So, while it might appear that the Deathwing and Ravenwing do everything for the Dark Angels, I'd argue this is a misconception based on GW's marketing, not rooted in the background or chapter culture.

On the one hand, I’m not at all a fan of the themes you describe above. I understand that this is a result of attempts to write stories unique to the Dark Angels, but speaking frankly it strikes me as lazy.

 

On the other hand, there have always been elites and larger-than-life heroes within a Chapter, even by the standard of the already super-heroic Space Marines. That’s true whether you’re talking about Ultramarines, Space Wolves, or Salamanders. So while each and every story about the Unforgiven shouldn’t be about the Fallen or a search for secrets or the Inner Circle’s taciturn nature arbitrarily working against them, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with a Chapter’s elite being depicted as such, or with the Chapter’s elite being shown to be the decisive force. That’s not to say that every story - or even most stories - should focus on the Deathwing or Inner Circle characters, of course. A perfect example of what I’m thinking about is the novel Gates of Fire. It would take a lot of mental gymnastics for someone to argue that this story isn’t ultimately about the last stand of the 300 Spartans, even though their contingent was one of the smallest the Greeks sent to Thermopylae. Pressfield’s story, however, is told from the perspective of a serf who accompanies that army.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Phoebus

[Phoebus]

EDIT: Moderators, I apologize for the back-to-back posts. I tried my hardest to post a single reply, but I think it exceeded parameters. FerociousBeast’s somehow auto-merged with Lord_Caerelion’s, but shabbadoo’s came out individually.

 

Assuming the 3rd-10th Companies have less oversight than the Deathwing and Ravenwing is just plain ludicrous. The Inner Circle not only exerts complete control over the 3rd-10th Companies, it exerts a large measure of control over most of the successor Chapters as well. What other Chapter can say the as much? Not one.

As I offered above, how many initiated battle-brothers does the Inner Circle have in the Deathwing? How many does it have in each line Company?

 

Also, the Deathwing do not always enact the killing blow in every conflict (nor should they, becaus they have specific task that are not alwys related to doing that), ...

This is the core issue, tactically speaking. The Deathwing are the Chapter’s most experienced, best-equipped, best protected infantry warriors, possessing unmatched, instantaneous mobility. By definition, any task they are assigned that isn’t relevant to the decisive engagement or primary effort of the operation is going to be the exception - not the rule.

 

... and the Ravenwing are not always the facilitators when they are. Can, and do, they work together? Sure, but the whole Chapter works together. But, is one dependent upon the other? Hell no! Last I checked, bikes can't drive over fortress walls, but Deathwing sure as hell can teleport into the heart of the fortress those walls are protecting (and they have). The only reason there is any hint of direct operational link between the Ravenwing and the Deathwing is due to the former rule related to teleport homers.

With respect, shabbadoo, you know it’s not as simple as that. On the simplest level, the Ravenwing also possess gunships, transports, and variants of Land Speeders. Beyond that, the synergy between the 1st and 2nd Companies is far greater than you describe here. If the argument is that the 7th Edition Codex essentially retconned the fluff portions of the 6th Edition Codex by virtue of omission, fair enough, but that is nonetheless the perspective I’m operating from.

 

And the Deathwing and Ravenwing are not the heart and soul of the Chapter. The Greenwing are.

I could not disagree more with this statement. The battle-brothers of the line Companies are superhuman warriors and heroes to the Imperium, but at the end of the day they are still waiting to be initiated in what the Chapter is truly about. Not just the underlying mission of the Hunt, of course, but the ethos and mindset that inform the Unforgiven.

 

... They can not, and do not, do everything of note. They are the support, not the core, and thus not the heart and soul of the Chapter. They are also not the focal point of every battle, nor can/should they be...unless one fields only Deathwing and/or Ravenwing units in their army, which is an outright anomaly (if a fun one).

Please see my responses, above. The argument has never been that the Deathwing and Ravenwing do “everything of note,” but that they are the decisive arm. Whether you want to call it the “primary effort” in American doctrine or the “schwerpunkt” in German doctrine, battles are won in key engagements, which are entrusted not to the balance of a commander’s larger force but to the unit deemed most capable of winning them.

 

In closing, and with last bit in mind, I don’t deny that Grim Resolve is a handy ability so much as I’m arguing that it doesn’t capture what this Chapter should be about. I question that the Dark Angels - the Unforgiven, really - are always captured in the best way in the lore (both Black Library fiction and a lot of the Codex text) and in the game. That obviously extends to their current doctrine. I recognize and respect that many of you are responding with the perspective of a gamer, first and foremost, and that you value the various facets of an Unforgiven force for reasons that go beyond tactical value. For my part, I’m not so much invested in any individual formation so much as I am in the concept of the Chapter (the Legion, rather) as a whole.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Phoebus

[Bryan Blaire]

Phoebus, you may just have a slightly different impression on the concept of the Unforgiven. The great majority of the battles any Unforgiven Chapter take part in aren't going to have much, if anything, to do with the actual Unforgiven themes, and therefore the greatest number of their battles will actually be persecuted mostly by the "Greenwing". For a Chapter Tactic, Grim Resolve is probably about as fluffy as it could be and greatly illustrates who the Dark Angels are as a whole Chapter, not focusing in specifically on the special companies, who should be illustrated by their own units special rules/keywords.

[Hellrender]

And what bryan blaire says is a good thing. As a space wolves collector i know the dangers of overdoing a theme. Over focussing on the hunt of the fallen and the whole inner circle theme just risks making a parody of it all.

 

Just like the wolfs with wolf claws riding wolves forming wolf squads and having pet wolves.

[Phoebus]

Bryan,

 

With respect, the points you’re raising I’ve addressed multiple times.

 

My argument is not simply about Unforgiven themes; again, I’m not about saying, “Fallen this, Fallen that,” in every story and mission. I’m saying that the mentality of the Inner Circle would inevitably reinforce and exaggerate principles that already exist in every fighting force: that the best part of an army will be utilized to win the decisive objective.

 

The line Companies make up the preponderance of the Chapter, and are involved in the preponderance of the fighting in any given conflict, but the unique culture, history, and psychology of the Unforgiven don’t support the idea of them being the decisive arm in battle. Part of that comes down to the Deathwing and the Ravenwing being the Chapter’s elite: historically, it’s always most experienced, best-equipped warriors who are entrusted with decisive engagements. An equally important part, however, are stated background facts, such as that the battle-brothers of the Tactical Squads of the line Companies frown on improvisation and free thought. That’s a direct result of an ingrained culture of trust-based initiations. Such warriors are indubitably suited to holding the line or securing objectives, but it takes some mental gymnastics to argue that they would be the best for delivering the decisive blow or winning the key engagement. It’s not a coincidence that in both game and lore you start seeing initiative become a prevalent trait once one ascends to the Ravenwing.

 

I don’t pretend that my argument is universally represented in the lore or the game products (though I do feel that much of what I’m arguing was the prevalent theme in 6th Edition, and much of it still applies through the last one). If anything, I have been quite clear that I want the way the Unforgiven are “packaged” as a gaming force to be re-examined.

 

I’m completely fine with debating all these points. I’m happy to discuss why the Deathwing shouldn’t be the decisive arm, for instance. I love debates about the Unforgiven.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Phoebus

[shandwen]

The recent books (Ravenwing series in particular) show just how the Deathwing and Ravenwing are not decisive tools for winning battles, but are primarily (and solely when it happens) tools for apprehending fallen. The Ravenwing will redeploy away from battles at the hint of a Fallen, and the Deathwing follows suit. When speaking to winning battles the fluff says the Greenwing does it's duty, while the 1st and 2nd companies do their own thing.

[FlamingDeth]

I understand where Phoebus is coming from, in that yes, even in standard, non-hunt scenarios the Deathwing are still going to be the hammerblow that cripples then enemy, because they are the best of the best. Where I disagree is that it therefore means that Grim Resolve is putting the focus on the wrong part of the army. Sure, they may not make use of it anywhere near as much as Greenwing, but that’s fine because it’s the core doctrine for the army as a whole. Deathwing and Ravenwing should be getting their own special rules to represent their special roles in even the most mundane of engagements, they don’t need the army wide rule to cater specifically to them.

[Bryan Blaire]

I’m saying that the mentality of the Inner Circle would inevitably reinforce and exaggerate principles that already exist in every fighting force: that the best part of an army will be utilized to win the decisive objective.

While I understand the above fact and I get where you are coming from overall, and you may have addressed the points, you're ignoring in your argument that Chapter Tactics aren't rules designed to exclusively ensure that the "best part of an army" be the decisive objective winner. That's true for all the Chapter Tactics - none of them specifically reference anything to make elite units automatically better, unfortunately some have knock-on effects of doing so anyway, or not blending into or running counter to the elite units' rules as much as Grim Resolve does for the Deathwing and Ravenwing, but that doesn't mean they aren't just general effects for all units.

 

You're also ignoring that every game may not be about the "decisive objective" for a given engagement at all, or there may not be a "decisive objective" at all to be defined in a battle. You may simply be fighting one of any number of line engagements in a larger war, where simply taking the Master's/Chaplain's/Librarian's/Lieutenant's/Senior Sergeant's orders and holding the given objectives is exactly what you need to do to "win" the engagement. The Chapter Tactics are organized more for general circumstances for the entire Chapter, with elite units supposed to be represented by elite rules or those units, and for this, Grim Resolve is both fluffy and crunchy to represent the Unforgiven as a whole.

[Phoebus]

Where I disagree is that it therefore means that Grim Resolve is putting the focus on the wrong part of the army. Sure, they may not make use of it anywhere near as much as Greenwing, but that’s fine because it’s the core doctrine for the army as a whole. Deathwing and Ravenwing should be getting their own special rules to represent their special roles in even the most mundane of engagements, they don’t need the army wide rule to cater specifically to them.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t presume to know what how an ideal Chapter Tactic for the Dark Angels would be spelled out. Ideally, it would be a synergistic effect, and wouldn’t involve a key part of the army to do something contrary to its strengths. Grim Resolve works great for the Tactical and Devastator Squads of a Battle Company, but requires mental gymnastics for where Ravenwing Squadrons and Assault Squads are concerned, and is only tangentially relevant to the Deathwing. That ratio doesn’t strike me as even close to ideal.

 

While I understand the above fact and I get where you are coming from overall, and you may have addressed the points, you're ignoring in your argument that Chapter Tactics aren't rules designed to exclusively ensure that the "best part of an army" be the decisive objective winner.

See my response to CardinalVirtue, above, please.

 

You're also ignoring that every game may not be about the "decisive objective" for a given engagement at all, or there may not be a "decisive objective" at all to be defined in a battle.

I respectfully disagree. Just as in real life (or battles in fiction) the conditions of a battle may change and the actual decisive objective or engagement may end up being different than what the commander anticipated, but there will nonetheless be a place and a point that decides the battle. There’s every possibility that a commander might be lured to the wrong place, commit the Deathwing and/or Ravenwing at the wrong time, and/or be surprised by an unknown enemy force after the fact, but the efforts he undertakes to rectify this aren’t as indicative of his core doctrine. Edited December 17, 2017 by Phoebus

[shabbadoo]

Replies highlighted in red (it is just easier to reply that way). :D

EDIT: Moderators, I apologize for the back-to-back posts. I tried my hardest to post a single reply, but I think it exceeded parameters. FerociousBeast’s somehow auto-merged with Lord_Caerelion’s, but shabbadoo’s came out individually.
 

Assuming the 3rd-10th Companies have less oversight than the Deathwing and Ravenwing is just plain ludicrous. The Inner Circle not only exerts complete control over the 3rd-10th Companies, it exerts a large measure of control over most of the successor Chapters as well. What other Chapter can say the as much? Not one.

As I offered above, how many initiated battle-brothers does the Inner Circle have in the Deathwing? How many does it have in each line Company?

 

The Deathwing members have already been found worthy.  You might as well be saying, "The Inner Circle needs to keep an eye on the Inner Circle, because you never know..."   The line companies are all about the oversight. The Inner Circle is always on the lookout for those among the line companies who could potentially be an issue, or who could be recruited higher up. Even Chaplains are scrutinized. This must be something that you know of. As such, there is utter scrutiny paid to the non-Deathwing companies. The Ravenwing may very well be the most scrutinized though, as most of them are on the verge of knowing, but are not quite there yet.  
 

Also, the Deathwing do not always enact the killing blow in every conflict (nor should they, because they have specific task that are not always related to doing that), ...

This is the core issue, tactically speaking. The Deathwing are the Chapter’s most experienced, best-equipped, best protected infantry warriors, possessing unmatched, instantaneous mobility. By definition, any task they are assigned that isn’t relevant to the decisive engagement or primary effort of the operation is going to be the exception - not the rule.

 
Unless the engagement, while needing to be handled, is really just a cover for the Deathwing to fulfill their hidden purpose of chasing down/capturing something Fallen-related. There are many reasons why the Deathwing will not be called upon to do everything, always. There are only 20 squads of them to scattered about, and that is only if they are at full strength. Some battle groups get a single squad, some get a few, and some get none, and that is not the exception, but the rule.    

 

... and the Ravenwing are not always the facilitators when they are. Can, and do, they work together? Sure, but the whole Chapter works together. But, is one dependent upon the other? Hell no! Last I checked, bikes can't drive over fortress walls, but Deathwing sure as hell can teleport into the heart of the fortress those walls are protecting (and they have). The only reason there is any hint of direct operational link between the Ravenwing and the Deathwing is due to the former rule related to teleport homers.

With respect, shabbadoo, you know it’s not as simple as that. On the simplest level, the Ravenwing also possess gunships, transports, and variants of Land Speeders. Beyond that, the synergy between the 1st and 2nd Companies is far greater than you describe here. If the argument is that the 7th Edition Codex essentially retconned the fluff portions of the 6th Edition Codex by virtue of omission, fair enough, but that is nonetheless the perspective I’m operating from.

 

Well, none of those Ravenwing assets are required for the Deathwing to operate, but let's operate on your perspective. The Dark Angels' Scouts don't ride bikes since Naaman's day, and so the Ravenwing are effectively now the Scout Bikers of the Dark Angels. They are dropped planet-side to find the rumored base of a Fallen, or those rumored to be in league with them or simply have knowledge of them. Turns out the base is (unsurprisingly) shielded, so no teleportation attacks, and the Ravenwing is of course too lightly armed to deal with the situation. The Chapter leadership surely are not going to deploy the very valuable Deathwing in open battle against a fortified base where they can be needlessly blasted to crap, and so the heroic Greenwing must be called in to hammer those shields down, such that the Deathwing, who have been kicking back in orbit, can then teleport down and lay a butt whoopin' on whoever is in there. And the Deathwing surely won't teleport down at the entryway, but deep inside the corridors of the base where they can more properly fight on their own terms. You see, your perspective is one that is fatally attached to interaction between the Ravenwing and Deathwing *on an open battlefield*, which is not where the Deathwing are going to be operating safely and to the best of their ability, let alone operating in a manner suited to why TDA was created in the first place. TDA was designed for tight quarters where heavier armor and weapons can be brought to bear against more lightly armed enemies who cannot bring superior numbers to bear. I know the game is played a certain way (i.e. on an open battlefield), but that way isn't truly suited to the Deathwing because they are unable to fully capitalize on their advantages, and are otherwise very vulnerable. This has much to do with why Terminators are not the best of choices in the game as it is usually played. Now, put them in some space hulk corridors where enemies block the line-of-sight of other enemies, such that only a few can engage the Deathwing at a time, and now you have Deathwing operating as they were intended to. Note that the Ravenwing are not so conspicuously absent from the equation. They necessarily took on Scout tasks too when certain units were left out of our codexes, but that has been rightfully turned back. The Ravenwing are best classified as outriders who seek to prevent escape, and chase down those who do escape. That is really their core purpose, not facilitating the Deathwing, because everyone has always facillitated the Deathwing.

And the Deathwing and Ravenwing are not the heart and soul of the Chapter. The Greenwing are.

I could not disagree more with this statement. The battle-brothers of the line Companies are superhuman warriors and heroes to the Imperium, but at the end of the day they are still waiting to be initiated in what the Chapter is truly about. Not just the underlying mission of the Hunt, of course, but the ethos and mindset that inform the Unforgiven.

 

The Greenwing is what the Chapter is about. Everything else is about what the Chapter forces itself to be, which is not what it is supposed to be. Let's use politics in general as a metaphor. Imagine you get into politics to help people, but then you are forced into becoming a corrupt a-hole. Is the the point of politics then to be a corrupt a-hole? I don't think so. The Greenwing embodies the heart and soul of the Dark Angels; the Inner Circle embodies its failings. When Greenwing become Inner Circle, their heart and soul is sacrificed on the altar of lies. This is a core feature of the Chapter, but it is what the Chapter strives for that is its heart and soul, and what they strive for is not the propagation of the lies but to no longer have a need for the lies. The Greenwing are the ideal, not the Inner Circle, and it is the pursuit of the ideal, through redemption by those who know they need it, that motivates the Inner Circle at all. The Inner Circle is not the heart and soul of the Chapter, but the cancer upon it.
 

... They can not, and do not, do everything of note. They are the support, not the core, and thus not the heart and soul of the Chapter. They are also not the focal point of every battle, nor can/should they be...unless one fields only Deathwing and/or Ravenwing units in their army, which is an outright anomaly (if a fun one).

Please see my responses, above. The argument has never been that the Deathwing and Ravenwing do “everything of note,” but that they are the decisive arm. Whether you want to call it the “primary effort” in American doctrine or the “schwerpunkt” in German doctrine, battles are won in key engagements, which are entrusted not to the balance of a commander’s larger force but to the unit deemed most capable of winning them.

 

I have no issue with that concept. The decisive moment of any battle is where the action turns. The best suited elite unit may be present at that place, at that time, or not. You've never played a game where your elite units were neutralized, only to have some Joe Schmoe line unit win the battle for you because they happened to be at the right place at the right time and do the right thing? Heck, I had Grots wipe out two squads of Scouts and take and objective in one game, and that was the decisive bit. Another time I had a Tactical squad wither away enough Eldar to barely be able to weather a storm of return starcannon fire, which won the game. I could go on and on with examples of non-elite units doing decisive things. It happens all the time. Going along with that, the Deathwing are not the rock, paper, and scissors all in one package, and neither are the Ravenwing. That is my point in total.

In closing, and with last bit in mind, I don’t deny that Grim Resolve is a handy ability so much as I’m arguing that it doesn’t capture what this Chapter should be about. I question that the Dark Angels - the Unforgiven, really - are always captured in the best way in the lore (both Black Library fiction and a lot of the Codex text) and in the game. That obviously extends to their current doctrine. I recognize and respect that many of you are responding with the perspective of a gamer, first and foremost, and that you value the various facets of an Unforgiven force for reasons that go beyond tactical value. For my part, I’m not so much invested in any individual formation so much as I am in the concept of the Chapter (the Legion, rather) as a whole.

 

I am not approaching this point of things from a gaming perspective at all (though I was earlier in speaking as to whether Grim Resolve is a good ability or not). The ability suits the Chapter's known character. That the ability is good enough game-wise has nothing to do with it. Perhaps you take issue with only the shooty aspect of the rule, though I hope you don't take issue with the Morale portion of it.

[Bryan Blaire]

We'll have to agree to disagree, Phoebus. I think you are blind to this because of your personal feelings and what you are saying about battles makes no sense, in the game or real life. You keep posting as if decisive things are known 100% of the time on a given battlefield or that things are 100% decisive or not, and they aren't. Many times, that is usually something discovered after the fact. You're also ignoring the fact that the game you are playing doesn't always have to be the specific decisive portion of a given battle (none of us can say that about anyone else's narratives).

 

Grim Resolve very much represents on the table-top who the Dark Angels are: determined fighting through, regardless of the situation. It even sounds like how the Lion gets described, and has been specified before in different Codex editions. Grim Resolve isn't about defining how the army advances or fights when things are perfect, it's about defining what the Dark Angels do when they are on their back foot, which is stand and deliver a withering hail of fire, not giving an inch.

[Phoebus]

We'll have to agree to disagree, Phoebus.

That’s perfectly fine. At the end of the day, this is nothing more than an exchange of opinions regarding something that has already been published. That said...

 

I think you are blind to this because of your personal feelings and what you are saying about battles makes no sense, in the game or real life.

I am not, and what I have said does not.

 

I have supplemented my opinions with a historical example (earlier in this thread) and references to modern doctrine, as well. You don’t have to agree with me when it comes to the Chapter’s ethos and psychology, but - and I don’t want to sound like I’m trumpeting my own experiences here - nothing I’ve said goes against the very basic warfighting principles I’ve accumulated in a 21-year military career. A considerable portion of my life has been spent advising ground force commanders, observing and assisting in the planning process, and seeing them play out. I assure you there is nothing unusual about a commander assigning his best assets to prosecute the key objective while utilizing the balance of his force to, e.g., provide supporting fires and maneuver.

 

You keep posting as if decisive things are known 100% of the time on a given battlefield or that things are 100% decisive or not, and they aren't. Many times, that is usually something discovered after the fact.

100% is an exaggeration that I have never used, Bryan. I have simply argued that the Deathwing should be the decisive arm in operations. If you’d like me to be more specific, a commander will have specific objectives and tasks for his forces regardless of what is known or unknown about the enemy (and finding out as much as possible about the enemy will certainly be one of those tasks). The unknown and unexpected are a major reason why there is a strategic reserve to begin with. When said reserve possesses an effectively limitless and instantaneous means of maneuver, it can also easily serve as the primary effort for an operation.

 

Again, I don’t want to come off as authoritarian or smarter-than-thou. I am perfectly happy for anyone here to tell me that they don’t like or agree with my in-game perspective of the Unforgiven. I just wanted to make sure it was understood that I’m not just inventing or hijacking military jargon, words, and concepts to support my argument. :)

 

Where the Chapter Tactics itself is concerned, I again point you to my response to CardinalVirtue.

 

shabbadoo,

 

I promise you a response. I hope you’ll allow me an interlude!

Edited December 17, 2017 by Phoebus

[Bryan Blaire]

Again, Phoebus, you keep arguing as if Chapter Tactics is supposed to be something that is somehow influencing the use of the Deathwing as a hammerblow. They aren't. None of the Chapter Tactics represent a commander using their most elite force to secure objectives. Grim Resolve is very representative of the Unforgiven attitude toward battle on the whole.

 

There is also nothing about Grim Resolve that prevents the use of Deathwing units as the "decisive arm", that's what makes no sense about your argument.

[Phoebus]

Again, Phoebus, you keep arguing as if Chapter Tactics is supposed to be something that is somehow influencing the use of the Deathwing as a hammerblow. They aren't. None of the Chapter Tactics represent a commander using their most elite force to secure objectives.

No, I’m not. Bryan, I’m not trying to be rude but this is the third time I find myself asking you to refer to my response to CardinalVirtue regarding my proposals. I am very happy to debate with you, but not if it means that you ignore my stated points and instead make assumptions.

 

Grim Resolve is very representative of the Unforgiven attitude toward battle on the whole.

There is also nothing about Grim Resolve that prevents the use of Deathwing units as the "decisive arm", that's what makes no sense about your argument.

Grim Resolve requires the forces benefitting from it being static. While thematically apropos to the ethos of the Chapter (unyielding, unwilling to surrender ground) and some of the stories told of it, standing still does not even marry itself to the most basic of Space Marine themes: a shock force aimed at the most strategically important objectives!

 

Even the Imperial Fists, whose concept - more than any other Chapter’s - lends itself to static defense, received a Chapter Tactic that simply improves their attack. That it functions only when attacking enemies in cover doesn’t detract from the fact that it’s completely in line with the Chapter’s ethos - not a part of it, not even just a majority of it - and don’t require that the units benefiting from it to give anything up. This last bit is true with every other Chapter Tactic - except ours. Literally the only cogent argument I’ve seen thus far about another Chapter Tactic requiring the units in question to give something up involves the Ultramarines. I struggle to think of any other Chapter Tactic that doesn’t seamlessly apply equally well across the Chapter.

[Bryan Blaire]

No, I’m not. Bryan, I’m not trying to be rude but this is the third time I find myself asking you to refer to my response to CardinalVirtue regarding my proposals. I am very happy to debate with you, but not if it means that you ignore my stated points and instead make assumptions.

Yes, you are. Your argument continuously reverts back to talking about the Deathwing and Ravenwing and saying that the Greenwing are useless to focus on because they aren't what is enjoyable or the draw of the Unforgiven (something that is very much your own opinion and countered by at least myself and one other poster in this very thread). If you can't see that you are doing that, I don't know what to tell you.

 

Your response to CardinalVirtue is about as useless as one can be - "I don't know what it should be, but it should be something equally beneficial to all Dark Angels units." That's great, but hardly anything that can be discussed, because you offer up nothing to discuss. My preference would be for the Deathwing and Ravenwing to get rules appropriate to their function and not even need to worry about the Chapter Tactic at all.

 

That particular line of discussion is meaningless regarding whether Grim Resolve is fluffy and a good Chapter Tactic to represent the Unforgiven.

 

Also, if you don't want to discuss my responses, stop quoting/responding.

 

Grim Resolve requires the forces benefitting from it being static. While thematically apropos to the ethos of the Chapter (unyielding, unwilling to surrender ground) and some of the stories told of it, standing still does not even marry itself to the most basic of Space Marine themes: a shock force aimed at the most strategically important objectives!

So your argument against Grim Resolve is "The Dark Angels have a theme that is opposed to being Space Marines, so I don't like the rule that is directly married to the idea of this theme" and you think that makes a compelling argument? You might as well say that you hate the unyielding theme of the Unforgiven that they will stand and die rather than giving an inch. Even the Deathwing have been described in the fashion as "Their Resolve is without question and they have never been known to falter, no matter how fearsome the enemy, preferring to give their lives than take a single step backwards in the face of the enemy." (Dark Angels 4th Edition Codex, pg 28). Doesn't sound like the theme had much care for the "most basic Space Marine themes" at that point.

 

6th Edition DA Codex - they became Stubborn (Morale boost in Grim Resolve from 8th) and can't choose to voluntarily fail Morale, due to their intractable nature (will keep on fighting even when discretion might prove better). It was actually the Standard of Devastation that made the DA better at shooting in 6th, now that's basically included at all times (and they were even better when stationary in proximity to the banner). In 7th, the Stubborn part remained, but now they have a universal bonus to shooting only in Overwatch - requiring that your enemy assault you for you to gain any benefit. Talk about a reactionary tactic.

 

Grim Resolve just expands the preponderance of shooting that the Dark Angels has been gaining over time.

 

Now, I would propose that it would be nice if they gained the re-rolls in Overwatch regardless of whether they moved or not, but I'm assuming that there might be a balancing concept involved as to why they didn't do this, but some playtesting will probably show if this is broken or not in conjunction with all the other new stuff for the DA.

 

Even the Imperial Fists, whose concept - more than any other Chapter’s - lends itself to static defense, received a Chapter Tactic that simply improves their attack. That it functions only when attacking enemies in cover doesn’t detract from the fact that it’s completely in line with the Chapter’s ethos - not a part of it, not even just a majority of it - and don’t require that the units benefiting from it to give anything up.

Sorry, the argument that "The Imperial Fists Chapter Tactic doesn't line up with their theme of being siege defenders, but I like its benefits, so will use it as an example" doesn't hold any water with me. The Imperial Fists have the Iron Warriors "Chapter Tactic", not their own. Again, Grim Resolve is thematically appropriate, and therefore superior to the Imperial Fists' CT is.

 

In the end, the way Grim Resolve is written serves to highlight the underlying nature of all Unforgiven, they are not any better on the advance than any other battleline Marines and need their Inner Circle commanders to provide them the benefits of their leadership while advancing and taking objectives, however, once there, the intractable nature of the Unforgiven takes over and they don't require as much minding, allowing their command force she to strategically re-prioritize themselves to new objectives, allowing their forces to hold, not giving any ground, able to blaze away. It's about as "basic nature illustration" a fluffy rule could be.

[Stormxlr]

Honestly though.... Greenwing, Ravenwing and Deathwing all operate in such different ways in the books and stories that they should have had their own equivalents in chapter tactics for each wing.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I think we're deviating too far from the subject which is Grim resolve being good, decent or otherwise. ;)

[Phoebus]

The Deathwing members have already been found worthy. You might as well be saying, "The Inner Circle needs to keep an eye on the Inner Circle, because you never know..." :teehee:

With respect, you misunderstood me. I’m comparing the amount of initiated brethren found in the two Companies, not arguing that the Deathwing requires as much oversight. I’m pointing out why the Inner Circle would place more trust in the First Company, which carries over to all Company Masters (obviously) being “graduates” of the Deathwing and in turn should (in my humble opinion) play into the Chapter being culturally and psychologically predisposed to utilize the Deathwing as the decisive arm.

 

Unless the engagement, while needing to be handled, is really just a cover for the Deathwing to fulfill their hidden purpose of chasing down/capturing something Fallen-related. There are many reasons why the Deathwing will not be called upon to do everything, always.

There will always be exceptions, shabbadoo. We’re talking about the rule.

 

There are only 20 squads of them to scattered about, ...

Are there? ARE THERE? Muahahaha! ;)

 

... Some battle groups get a single squad, some get a few, and some get none, and that is not the exception, but the rule.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, the “rule” is:

 

“Most Dark Angels deployments consist of a single Battle Company, reinforced by elements of the Deathwing, Ravenwing, Scout and Reserve Companies.

...

Any Dark Angels force can also call upon elements of the 1st or 2nd Companies for support; ...

...

For this reason, very few Dark Angels strike forces go to war without at least one squad of Deathwing on hand ...”

 

Excerpt From

Codex: Dark Angels Enhanced Edition

Games Workshop

https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/codex-dark-angels-enhanced-edition/id1319855282?mt=11

This material may be protected by copyright.

... They are dropped planet-side to find the rumored base of a Fallen, or those rumored to be in league with them or simply have knowledge of them.

Can we please not assume the Fallen are in play? The Codex makes it clear that years, even decades go by without even a hint of the Fallen coming to the Dark Angels’ attention. Let’s instead focus on the wars the Unforgiven fight the majority of the time.

 

Turns out the base is (unsurprisingly) shielded, so no teleportation attacks, ...

If only the Adeptus Astartes possessed warships capable of breaking open shielded, kilometers-long things made out of metal... ;)

 

... so the heroic Greenwing must be called in to hammer those shields down, such that the Deathwing, who have been kicking back in orbit, can then teleport down and lay a butt whoopin' on whoever is in there. And the Deathwing surely won't teleport down at the entryway, but deep inside the corridors of the base where they can more properly fight on their own terms. You see, your perspective is one that is fatally attached to interaction between the Ravenwing and Deathwing ...

Not really, Shabadoo. I’m very happy to champion the synergy of the two Companies as described in the Codex of two editions ago, but what I’m most keen on is what I’ve consistently been talking about here: the Chapter utilizing its best assets for the decisive engagement. With that in mind, while I think the scenario you proposed is a bit contrived (hence my reference to the warships, above), I’m not at all opposed to artillery or gunships being the enablers. What I’m opposed to is the idea that more lightly armed, less armored, and less experienced warriors would be the focus of a battle plan, especially when it’s been devised by an officer of the Inner Circle.

 

I know the game is played a certain way (i.e. on an open battlefield), but that way isn't truly suited to the Deathwing because they are unable to fully capitalize on their advantages, and are otherwise very vulnerable.

And yet this perspective - the vulnerability in an open battlefield, not the origins of Tactical Dreadnought Armour - is never expressed or even implied in the Codices (to my knowledge). What is consistently re-affirmed, over multiple editions, if only in short vignettes, is the use of the Deathwing in shock assaults in the midst of enemy formations or against key objectives, with their firepower and survivability being cited.

 

This has much to do with why Terminators are not the best of choices in the game as it is usually played.

With all due respect, the game leaves a lot to be desired in terms of gameplay - especially where faithfulness to the current background material is concerned.

 

The Greenwing is what the Chapter is about. Everything else is about what the Chapter forces itself to be, which is not what it is supposed to be.

We are literally on diametrically opposite sides right now! :D

 

The introduction to the Codex is literally about the “dark obsession of the Unforgiven,” and how the foe is ruthlessly taken apart by the Deathwing and the Ravenwing, with support by their other battle-brothers. The history of the Chapter is quite literally the history of the Inner Circle and how it transformed what was left of the Legion into the Unforgiven we know of today. I challenge you to tell me that when you ask anyone what comes to mind when they think of the Dark Angels or the Unforgiven that their answer is, “the Greenwing.”

 

The Battle and Reserve Companies are comprised of warriors who have no say in, or knowledge of, what the Chapter is truly about. The battle-brothers of the line are ideologically and psychologically distinct from their officers. They are isolated and compartmentalized precisely so that the Imperium cannot know what the Chapter is about. What the Dark Angels are supposed to be is absolutely irrelevant when compared to what they actively are. It plays a role in the setting only insofar as it serving as the ends towards which the Dark Angels are struggling.

 

You've never played a game where your elite units were neutralized, only to have some Joe Schmoe line unit win the battle for you because they happened to be at the right place at the right time and do the right thing?

This game isn’t perfect; we all know that. It doesn’t perfectly approximate a Space Marine’s abilities, it doesn’t perfectly capture scale, or firepower, or maneuver. It certainly won’t be proof to a myriad of stratagems that might not have much at all to do with a given faction’s ethos. The parameters that inform the ruleset can’t be what a given opponent might spring on you, though.

 

Going along with that, the Deathwing are not the rock, paper, and scissors all in one package, and neither are the Ravenwing. That is my point in total.

I don’t disagree with that at all. Again, as I offered to CardinalVirtue, I don’t know what the idea Unforgiven Chapter Tactic would look like, but I’d like to think that it would reward synergy and that it would not require any one arm of the Chapter - especially a signature one - to do something out of character in favor of another arm.

 

]I am not approaching this point of things from a gaming perspective at all (though I was earlier in speaking as to whether Grim Resolve is a good ability or not). The ability suits the Chapter's known character. That the ability is good enough game-wise has nothing to do with it. Perhaps you take issue with only the shooty aspect of the rule, though I hope you don't take issue with the Morale portion of it.

I certainly have no issue with the Morale bit; in fact, I’m not even opposed to it being shooting-centric! :)

 

As I offered earlier, my problem with Grim Resolve comes down to the fact that being stationary doesn’t really lend itself to Space Marine ethos overall (again, them being a shock, rapid-assault force, first and foremost), isn’t necessarily something that yells “Deathwing!” and requires some mental gymnastics when it comes to the Ravenwing and Assault (ahem, Close Support) Squads.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Phoebus

[FerociousBeast]

Honestly though.... Greenwing, Ravenwing and Deathwing all operate in such different ways in the books and stories that they should have had their own equivalents in chapter tactics for each wing.

Like, for example, Grim Resolve, Jink, and Inner Circle?

Edited December 17, 2017 by FerociousBeast

[Phoebus]

Yes, you are. Your argument continuously reverts back to talking about the Deathwing and Ravenwing and saying that the Greenwing are useless to focus on because they aren't what is enjoyable or the draw of the Unforgiven (something that is very much your own opinion and countered by at least myself and one other poster in this very thread). If you can't see that you are doing that, I don't know what to tell you.

Bryan, I have never said anything of the sort, and you putting words in my mouth is getting a little frustrating. You’re a Moderator of this forum, but at this point it’s becoming clear that one of us - and it’s not me - is allowing emotion to creep into this discussion. If you don’t care for my position, fair enough. If you’re interested in continuing this discussion, however, I would ask you to recognize that there is substantial difference between these two statements:

 

1. It makes sense for the most experienced, best-equipped part of one’s force to be assigned the decisive engagement/objective.

2. The Greenwing are useless to focus on because they aren’t what is enjoyable or the draw of the Unforgiven.

 

My intent here is not to say that the 3rd-10th Companies “aren’t fun,” or that (and this is what I suspect this is leading to) I think you, or shabbadoo, or whoever, isn’t “doing it right.” If you genuinely think that’s the case, then you’re right: we’re better off ending this discussion.

 

Your response to CardinalVirtue is about as useless as one can be - "I don't know what it should be, but it should be something equally beneficial to all Dark Angels units." That's great, but hardly anything that can be discussed, because you offer up nothing to discuss.

I offered that, ideally, the Chapter Tactic would involve “a synergistic effect.” I qualified that it should not impose on the strengths of a signature portion of the faction. Does that not suffice for discussion? Does it really merit such an abrasive response from you?

 

As for the Ravenwing’s rules, all I can say is that the Black Huntsmen finally have the Inner Circle rule. Perhaps in another few editions, the Ravenwing Champion will, too, and there’ll be an option for Veteran Sergeants to purchase it, and I can die in peace!

 

Also, if you don't want to discuss my responses, stop quoting/responding.

Bryan, I asked you to stop ignoring my stated comments. That’s hardly a refusal to discuss.

 

You might as well say that you hate the unyielding theme of the Unforgiven that they will stand and die rather than giving an inch.

Of course not. I don’t hate any of the themes of the Unforgiven. I question that the one selected for the Chapter Tactic is the most apropos one. I appreciate you providing the precedent and the context that inform Grim Resolve, but I haven’t been shy about saying I think a re-examination of the Chapter’s gaming concepts would be good. You don’t agree; that’s fine. It’s not a cause for argument. “We’re simply not going to agree on this because I value these themes and their place in the game’s history” are perfectly valid answers.

 

Now, I would propose that it would be nice if they gained the re-rolls in Overwatch regardless of whether they moved or not, but I'm assuming that there might be a balancing concept involved as to why they didn't do this, but some playtesting will probably show if this is broken or not in conjunction with all the other new stuff for the DA.

I suspect you’re right about that.

 

Sorry, the argument that "The Imperial Fists Chapter Tactic doesn't line up with their theme of being siege defenders, but I like its benefits, so will use it as an example" doesn't hold any water with me. The Imperial Fists have the Iron Warriors "Chapter Tactic", not their own.

I’m going with what’s available, Bryan. I’m not trying to be the slightest bit snarky right now, but would you rather talk about Black Templars getting bonuses to charge without requiring one of their signature formations to give up something central to it? What about White Scars getting movement bonuses all around, and so on?

 

... they are not any better on the advance than any other battleline Marines and need their Inner Circle commanders to provide them the benefits of their leadership while advancing and taking objectives, ...

Agreed and agreed.

 

... however, once there, the intractable nature of the Unforgiven takes over and they don't require as much minding, allowing their command force she to strategically re-prioritize themselves to new objectives, allowing their forces to hold, not giving any ground, able to blaze away. It's about as "basic nature illustration" a fluffy rule could be.

This is the part that I have trouble with, obviously. Well, the last part at any rate. I’m sorry we can’t see eye to eye on this. I’m not trying to be contrary for the sake of it, and I’m certainly not telling you that you have to agree with me. I’ve offered you my thoughts regarding Space Marines, the employment of forces, and so on. I don’t want the Chapter Tactic to be something just about the Deathwing. If compromising basic rules were allowed, I could envision something like a Dark Angels unit being able to target and shoot an enemy unit locked in combat with another Dark Angels unit, albeit at reduced efficiency (snap shots?). Edited December 17, 2017 by Phoebus

[Bryan Blaire]

 

Honestly though.... Greenwing, Ravenwing and Deathwing all operate in such different ways in the books and stories that they should have had their own equivalents in chapter tactics for each wing.

Like, for example, Grim Resolve, Jink, and Inner Circle?

Yeah, pretty much. :lol: And lo and behold, the Ravenwing and Inner Circle also can still gain the benefits of the Chapter Tactic when it is appropriate as they should, as they all came up through the Chapter Companies. Whether their battlefield use makes this a regular occurrence is a different story, but to say that the Chapter Tactics are somehow subpar simply because two companies that are still part of the Chapter have their own rules more suited to their place in the forces is just goofy.

[shabbadoo]

Phoebus wrote:

 

What I’m opposed to is the idea that more lightly armed, less armored, and less experienced warriors would be the focus of a battle plan, especially when it’s been devised by an officer of the Inner Circle.

 

That is just outright madness. The focus of any battle plan is always the core units, by necessity. The heart of any military force is its core units, not its special forces. For Space Marines their core units just so happen to be elite badasses to begin with. The core is what is used to fight all engagements, while any special units may be assigned tasks suited to them, if there even are any that suit them. They are too valuable to use in the muddy bloody trenches, but you put an "America, @#$! Yeah!" mission brief in their hands, and it's on! But not every battle will have an "America, @#$! Yeah!" mission brief. When such missions do exist though, these missions will nearly always be about hampering the enemy in a key way, such that the core can then hammer the enemy into dust decisively. You see, the whole point of special forces is to support the core, but who is doing the Lion's share of the work? The core. The heart of the force. That would be the Greenwing. If the core is not the focus of a commander's battle plan, that commander is an idiot beyond compare.

 

Also, if a commander doesn't need a unit, they don't use it. They surely don't think, "I've got this awesome unit that I just have to use, just because I have it! I don't care if the situation doesn't warrant their use - I have to use them because they iz teh awesome!" That is the kind of commander that needs to be shot by his own special forces, because he is an idiot. Inner Circle Commanders surely draw up battle plans that do not make use of the Deathwing and Ravenwing (ground units specifically) all too often. It will probably be the norm even, because auxiliary units are only called upon "if needed" (to quote "the rule"), if we are thinking that Dark Angels Command would be sound realists as to how one uses special forces. And maybe they don't use battle barges to drop the shields on an enemy bases either, because macro-cannons are not fine surgical instruments, and maybe they kinda sorta wanta have targets left alive to capture instead of them being reduced to their component atoms. And so, just maybe they would be intelligent enough to send in the Greenwing instead to surgically remove those shields with just the right amount of force so as to leave some survivors.

 

Therefore, the Dark Angles Chapter Tactic should in no way be about cooperation among units that may not even be present. Chapter Tactics really represents the core facet of a Chapter; something that every marine comes to embody by they time they are given their power armor and are truly a space marine. They have been fully trained and indoctrinated at that point. Sure, some of them may go on to become something more than that and so gain additional abilities, but the core trait that binds them all together is already established before that. All of the Chapter Tactics represent either training (Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Raven Guard), a unique feature (Iron Hands, Salamanders), or something related to the character of the Chapter (Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels). Our Chapter Tactic just so happens to be one more related to the character of the Chapter, and that is all about the history of the Chapter. The Dark Angels are just a grim bunch, not "the cooperation Chapter." That sort of thing is better suited to being represented in stratagems. And so Grim Resolve suits the Dark Angels well enough.

Edited December 19, 2017 by shabbadoo