Grim Resolve is a solid chapter tactic

[Phoebus]

Shabbadoo,

 

It's not madness, though. I think one of our disconnects comes down to our perception of certain concepts. For instance, "Special Forces" isn't something that even enters my equation. I see the Deathwing as an elite tasked with shock assault against the most important objectives, the Ravenwing as an elite tasked with reconnaissance, screening, and skirmishing, the 3rd-5th Battle Companies as the Chapter's core, and the rest as supporting assets. None of these fight unconventional warfare in the way we understand that term: commando missions of infiltration, sabotage, asset recovery, assassination, etc. If you're looking for a real-world comparison, the Deathwing is best described as a modern American brigade having one of its 10-12 subordinate companies (we'll ignore the battalion echelon for the sake of this discussion) be comprised only of veterans with 10 or more years of experience, the best marksmanship and fitness scores, superior psychological reports, next generation equipment, and, well, the ability to instantaneously appear where the enemy least wants them! ;)

Now, of course a given battle plan is going to involve the core of a fighting force. That's not in dispute. The point I'm trying to make is that, every battle plan has primary and secondary objectives, primary and secondary efforts, and so on. This is as true of a line company as it is of the multi-division corps tasked with stopping German advance across the Ardeness. What's equally true is that not all - or even most, or even half - of the force in question will be tasked with the commander's primary effort. A company's operation order will place the primary effort on a single platoon, while a corps' might do so on a reinforced brigade. The majority of the force, and I'm generalizing here, will be tasked with secondary objectives, supporting maneuver, securing support-by-fire positions, and so on.

 

Where your second point is concerned, with respect, that's a dangerous generalization. A commander may not utilize a unit on account of it lacking the appropriate manpower (casualties), equipment (shortfalls), not being suitable for the area of operations (armor in the mountains), or other conditions (weather precludes aircraft from flying). All else being equal, though, a unit is either tasked, held as a reserve, or rotated out of the theater of operations (reconstitution). I've never had a commander who denied artillery, attack helicopters, or close air support, or settled for the doctrinal numerical superiority of, e.g., assaulting a fixed position when an additional component could make the attack more viable. A recurring theme in military history is commanders assigning the most crucial objectives to their most experienced, best-equipped forces. That was as true of Alexander, with his Companion cavalry and Hypaspist infantry, Napoleon with his Old Guard, Hitler with his obsession over his SS Divisions, and so on. Only in the last decade and a half has American military doctrine focused on parity across its conventional forces, with the emphasis being on using the most combat-ready unit rather than an "elite" (e.g., the 82nd Airborne Division pre-2001).

 

The Adeptus Astartes absolutely do place distinction between their elite and their core, of course. Furthermore, they place incredible importance on warrior cults and proving oneself in battle. That's why I cannot even imagine a Dark Angels commander not employing the Deathwing "just because." If the Battle Company assigned with the initial push somehow steamrolled the opposition all the way to the objective, would the commander unleash his 1st Company elite just for the sake of doing so? No, of course not, but he certainly wouldn't exclude them by default. As for the morale of the warriors in question, what you state would certainly apply to Astra Militarum contingents, but I can never see that being a consideration for the Adeptus Astartes - much less the Dark Angels, in whom unflinching obedience is ingrained. Finally, I would argue that the quote you provided refers to strike forces requesting Deathwing assets prior to departing for independent operations: I don't believe it's a case of a Master or a Chaplain having to ask the Deathwing Squad on their strike cruiser to join them in battle.

(Regarding battle barges, shields, etc., I'll leave it up to you... but that may be a topic for another day. I think we can agree that these assets work or don't work according to the author's whim, and are accordingly precise.)

 

At the end of the day, while the uninitiated Dark Angels outnumber the initiated by something approaching a 4:1 ratio, the Codex makes no bones about the core themes and concepts of this Chapter being the Inner Circle, the specialist Wings, and what the Legion's choices in the aftermath of Caliban's destruction made the Unforgiven into. I don't begrudge the Chapter Tactic also involving the Dark Angels' uninitiated core, but I don't think a compromise that denied one of the signature formations their chief strength was necessary. I certainly don't think cooperation between the Chapter's various formations - a stated theme and a rules feature for an entire edition - should be dismissed out of hand.

[Hellrender]

So you say elite troops that are superb marksmen and veterans of many a year, that perorm infiltration,assasination, recon and sabotage, they are not special forces??

Because that is exactly what special forces do.

 

The greenwing is the core of the army. Simples. In any given engagement there is maybe 1 deathwing squad available.. If even that. And you cant have your whole strategy evolve around 5 super bad ass dudes when you have 80 bad ass space marines available, because those 5 cant be everywhere.

 

Im sorry to say, but you keep making the same argument without trying to listen to what bryan and shab say. The core is the majority. When i have to defend a spot from a million orks, i rather have 80 bad ass marines then 5 super bad ass terminators.

 

If i have to take a city i rather have oå marines than 5..(well i tjink you get the point).

 

And in each of those cases i would utilize the deathwing exactly as special forces. Teleport in and assasinate the ork warlord. Or teleport in and take out a shield generator (if that is even possible as shields tend to distort teleporting tech.

 

In every major engagement i have much more use for 80 marines defending or taking a city.

 

The deathwing are super badass on space hulks, sure. They are awesome at doing niche roles like assassinating the ork warlord. But 5 dudes attacking a city.. ?? Yeh greenwing does that better any time a day. You also need to remember that greenwing are not like normal soldiers vs special ops. They are super bad ass marines in their own right.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I will say it again more clearly :agree to disagree and move on. The enciclopedia size arguments going although good won't make anyone chance sides. That's 40K in a nutshell.

Live long and prosper.

[Phoebus]

Hellrender,

 

I'm not trying to be rude here, but I'm calling it a day. This is partly because Chaplain Lucifer is drawing a line, but it's also partly because it's getting too frustrating to respond to when it's clear you didn't read my own post(s) for content. If it's too long, fair enough, but - again, I'm not trying to be rude - nothing you directed at me hasn't been answered at least three or four times already.

 

Shabbadoo,

 

If you're interested in continuing this over PM, hit me up.

[Chmur]

 

 

Shabbadoo,

 

If you're interested in continuing this over PM, hit me up.

 

Or you guys could set-up your own thread. While the discussion on the past pages has not been what I expected going into reading this thread, it was definitely interesting - it's always great to see how other people's perceptions and experiences shape the opinion about the fluff.

[Phoebus]

I'll leave it up to shabbadoo. I love talking about this stuff, though. :)