DW Newcomer LF advice

[Blackraw]

Hello everyone!

To cut the story short - I am a new WH40k player attracted to DW by terrific looks on Start Collecting/Team Cassius boxes. I also bought a Dark Imperium to get to rule book. After quiet bunch of time reading forum/studying index, I decided to make an army of DW units supported with some primaris squads.

I like the Spec Ops nature of DW. Like every character in a team has a story, its veteran experience, preferred weapon. Some team may need a terminator to get some cover fire and tanking on a mission or vanguard for some ambush etc. It all sounds cool to me and make assembling/painting/list building more fun. But I did not like the idea of putting packs of primaris in DW colors as it seems a little bit off-themed for me with 10 rookie intercessors with same guns looking like a twins and wearing DW pauldron.

 

So I thought why do not I get DW to be an allied force to SM army, so that it looks like DW sends a squad or two of spec ops to help the army guys.

 

I understand that having some "theme" preferences may make the list less competitive, though I would be happy if I could gather something playable within framework of <Chapter> army with primaris supported by DW Corvus, HQ and 1-2 KT.

Which led me to few questions.

1) How shall I distribute the points between army and ally? (I suppose most of the time I will be playing 1500/2000 games)?

2) What Chapter would go well with DW (safe for Ultramarines whom I do not want to go for)? I am planning to utilize pretty much of primaris there.  Without due account to chapter-specific units, I thought of BA as I do enjoy painting with red tones and they just got a codex there. 

 

3) Forming a DW part of the army.

What are some good examples of DW as ally?

 

Right now I have got:

Start Collecting:
-Artemis
-10 veterans
-Ven. Dreadnought 

Cassius box:
-5 veterans
-2 Vanguards 
-1 Biker

-1 Termie (damn, I like this salamander model so much, too bad that it is loaded with a lot of pricey stuff)
-1 Librarian 
-1 Chaplain 

My Dreadnought is still not painted, so I guess I could easily leave it for the main army part.

For the first Kill Team my idea was to make:

2x FC Vet
1x Black Shield with bolter +ccw
1x Sergeant with bolter +ccw (shall I opt for Xeno blade here?)
1x SS+Bolter (to tank AP shots)
1x Termie (to tank 0AP shots) 
(??) 1x Vanguard (I wonder does the "Fly" perk for retreat-shoot justify his presence here?)

Again, I am quiet unaware how much points shall be allocated for ally part, but thematically I would enjoy getting some HQ Artemis/Watch Master or at least Chaplain/Libr and Corvus.

I am not limited in terms of budget, but I would like to have options to rotate/alternate some guys from what I got, as I just do not like miniatures not getting play at all , especially when they look as good as Cassius box

Thanks!
 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Blackraw

[Moostick]

Edit: I get a little riled up when someone wants to be both thematic and comoetitive. Maybe someone more positive should say something. Edited December 13, 2017 by Moostick

[Muckwarrior]

So far, I disagree with everything said here. I've been able to be extremely competitive while maintaining a thematic army. We do have some options that are incredibly unique that no other army has:

 

1) Frag Cannons. This might be the most destructive and powerful ranged weapon in the game. You can place four of these in a Kill Team and kill just about anything in one turn.

2) Corvus Blackstar. This is a 12 slot transport that can carry bikes and has a punishing amount of firepower and wounds. A Deathwatch player needs no other vehicle than this.

3) Primaris. Take Primaris Marines. I run some Hellblasters, Inceptors and a Redemptor. They're fantastic additions to cover up some potential weak points.

4) Mixed Units. Being able to place a Terminator in a squad to automatically pass morale? Awesome. Place a biker so you can fall back and then charge again? Awesome.

5) Weapon Options. I run a breacher team with 6 marines. 3 Storm Bolters, 3 Combi-Meltas, 4 Storm Shields. Can kill anything. 200 points.

[Moostick]

Competitive is a highly subjective and depends on the local meta. We can discuss this at length, but this is not the topic for it, and I'll just paraphrase a statement someone said on one of the other SM boards that says it all: If 95% of veterans of our army agree it's not competitive, and 5% say it is, which side is more likely to have certain factors that aren't common within their local meta?

 

Back to the topic. We'll need some more info on your preferences. I think the first important thing is to define your definition of "competitive".

 

To OP's questions:

 

1) Really up to you on this

 

2) DW can do anything average, so it can be tailored to supplement any army. Since you only want to play armies you like, what are some factions you like? If it's an assault oriented army like BA, then I would opt to have DW be long range support...which is actually their weakest point, but you can take Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters, or Stalkers. Not the most optimized, but they work.

 

3) As with point 2, you should figure out what your main army will focus on before deciding what your DW allies will do.

[Thanatos31]

If you're starting out just be clear - DeathWatch is a very very cool looking and "lore-tastic" army - but it will put you in a frustrated space when you're playing against other armies. Currently the DW is a big, cool looking , Glas-Cannon that needs either an unexperienced opponent (preferably with a "non-codex" army / and or / a lucky day to have a sucessfull day ( in the gaming world). 
Everyone here is hoping that the DW will be more competitive as soon as the Codex drops next year. 

 

to your questions: 

 

1) How shall I distribute the points between army and ally? (I suppose most of the time I will be playing 1500/2000 games)?

 

--> depends on the ally - SpaceMarine factions typically benefit from allies that can bring bodies to the fight cheaply. Either build a 75% "elite" army and add 25% cheap bodies, or just use a few DW units to add as a vanguarg or patrol detachment , to add that SF flavor to your list. 

2) What Chapter would go well with DW (safe for Ultramarines whom I do not want to go for)? I am planning to utilize pretty much of primaris there.  Without due account to chapter-specific units, I thought of BA as I do enjoy painting with red tones and they just got a codex there. 

 

--> maybe think about rather going with Astra Militarum as an ally, as they can give you more bodies and weapons. Otherwise (going with any Elite army) you're just adding the same "specialized, low model count" appraoch to your entire list. If you want to do that, honestly,  the better approach is to just start an entire army of BloodAngels or DarkAngels , and then maybe add in 1 -3 DW units to the list for a cool "special forces" feeling. 

[Thanatos31]

So far, I disagree with everything said here. I've been able to be extremely competitive while maintaining a thematic army. We do have some options that are incredibly unique that no other army has:

 

1) Frag Cannons. This might be the most destructive and powerful ranged weapon in the game. You can place four of these in a Kill Team and kill just about anything in one turn.

2) Corvus Blackstar. This is a 12 slot transport that can carry bikes and has a punishing amount of firepower and wounds. A Deathwatch player needs no other vehicle than this.

3) Primaris. Take Primaris Marines. I run some Hellblasters, Inceptors and a Redemptor. They're fantastic additions to cover up some potential weak points.

4) Mixed Units. Being able to place a Terminator in a squad to automatically pass morale? Awesome. Place a biker so you can fall back and then charge again? Awesome.

5) Weapon Options. I run a breacher team with 6 marines. 3 Storm Bolters, 3 Combi-Meltas, 4 Storm Shields. Can kill anything. 200 points.

1)I agree - you forgot to mention the points cost per weapon , and what other armies can bring to the field (with those points).

2 I agree - very good flyer - bit blunted due to lack of POTMS

3) true - DW benefits - but every other Space Marine chapter can utilize them better due to army wide boosts / chapter tactics

4) I agree - you forgot to mention the points and that KT members have 1W and die as fast as vanilla marines. 

5) not bad, primaris hellblasters have a similar punch, have two wounds each and are cheaper. 

 

not trying to piss on your parade...hell.. I love the DW....but realistically, we're in a tough tough spot when it comes to playing 8th edition currently.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Thanatos31

[Major_Gilbear]

Firstly, welcome to the B&C! :D

 

I asked a very similar question yesterday (link), and have a very similar stock of models to work from.

 

Since my general thoughts are already posted there, I won't repeat myself here. Instead, I will address a few of your other comments:

 

- You will have low numbers, so a little flexibility in some squads is probably sensible. This could be as simple as adding a power weapon and/or a storm shield to a bolter and chainsword squad for example, to give you lift in situational moments. Too much mixed equipment is points-expensive, and you won't be using at least some of it all the time (although what isn't being used may change depending on situation).

 

- For allies, you can either treat the DW Primaris as virtual in-codex "allies" and just paint them differently to show this, or actually have a proper allied force chosen from a different codex. It's up to you to decide what you prefer.

 

- If you are looking for a suitable SM ally force, you may want to consider which enemy your DW force is supposedly assisting against. For example, if you choose Crimson Fists or Black Templars, then an enemy like Orks is quite a fluffy enemy to choose. Depending on what you choose, you can perhaps then theme the DW more towards fighting that enemy, and use the ally to "fill in" the other elements of your force to give a more rounded all-comers list.

 

- The proportion of DW vs allies (or DW Primaris) is entirely up to you. Other allies to consider may be an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with associated troops, Officio Assassinorum, and also Imperial Guard.

 

- DW is not currently a very competitive army. That doesn't mean you can't win games with them, it just means that you need to me more pragmatic in your unit and equipment choices, and that you cannot afford (m)any mistakes when you play. Of course, when they eventually get a codex, DW may improve. ;)

[Blackraw]

Guys, thanks for responses! I definitely did a bad job of explanation, maybe as I am not a native speaker, but I did not mean anything bad with thematic + competitive. Sorry for that.

My idea of competitive is mostly equals to "playable". I just want the list to be able to give at least some good resistance so that both me and opponent can enjoy the game. I will edit the initial post to avoid confusion :)

 

Competitive is a highly subjective and depends on the local meta. We can discuss this at length, but this is not the topic for it, and I'll just paraphrase a statement someone said on one of the other SM boards that says it all: If 95% of veterans of our army agree it's not competitive, and 5% say it is, which side is more likely to have certain factors that aren't common within their local meta?

 

Back to the topic. We'll need some more info on your preferences. I think the first important thing is to define your definition of "competitive".

 

To OP's questions:

 

1) Really up to you on this

 

2) DW can do anything average, so it can be tailored to supplement any army. Since you only want to play armies you like, what are some factions you like? If it's an assault oriented army like BA, then I would opt to have DW be long range support...which is actually their weakest point, but you can take Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters, or Stalkers. Not the most optimized, but they work.

 

3) As with point 2, you should figure out what your main army will focus on before deciding what your DW allies will do.

1) Thanks.

2) 3) Well, I guess picking first army, than ally is definitely the way to go. But I had a vice versa logic. I liked the idea of using Corvus, HQ and 2 KT (loaded with double FC) as DW part, and I have the Dark Imperium with its primaris assembled and ready to join some chapter. So I was thinking of army which can recruit these primaris and some other unit which could cope with the aspects the DW part has difficulties with. So I would be thankful if you could give a clue which chapters to pay attention to.

[Blackraw]

If you're starting out just be clear - DeathWatch is a very very cool looking and "lore-tastic" army - but it will put you in a frustrated space when you're playing against other armies. Currently the DW is a big, cool looking , Glas-Cannon that needs either an unexperienced opponent (preferably with a "non-codex" army / and or / a lucky day to have a sucessfull day ( in the gaming world). 

Everyone here is hoping that the DW will be more competitive as soon as the Codex drops next year. 

 

to your questions: 

 

1) How shall I distribute the points between army and ally? (I suppose most of the time I will be playing 1500/2000 games)?

 

--> depends on the ally - SpaceMarine factions typically benefit from allies that can bring bodies to the fight cheaply. Either build a 75% "elite" army and add 25% cheap bodies, or just use a few DW units to add as a vanguarg or patrol detachment , to add that SF flavor to your list. 

 

2) What Chapter would go well with DW (safe for Ultramarines whom I do not want to go for)? I am planning to utilize pretty much of primaris there.  Without due account to chapter-specific units, I thought of BA as I do enjoy painting with red tones and they just got a codex there. 

 

--> maybe think about rather going with Astra Militarum as an ally, as they can give you more bodies and weapons. Otherwise (going with any Elite army) you're just adding the same "specialized, low model count" appraoch to your entire list. If you want to do that, honestly,  the better approach is to just start an entire army of BloodAngels or DarkAngels , and then maybe add in 1 -3 DW units to the list for a cool "special forces" feeling. 

 

 

 

So far, I disagree with everything said here. I've been able to be extremely competitive while maintaining a thematic army. We do have some options that are incredibly unique that no other army has:

 

1) Frag Cannons. This might be the most destructive and powerful ranged weapon in the game. You can place four of these in a Kill Team and kill just about anything in one turn.

2) Corvus Blackstar. This is a 12 slot transport that can carry bikes and has a punishing amount of firepower and wounds. A Deathwatch player needs no other vehicle than this.

3) Primaris. Take Primaris Marines. I run some Hellblasters, Inceptors and a Redemptor. They're fantastic additions to cover up some potential weak points.

4) Mixed Units. Being able to place a Terminator in a squad to automatically pass morale? Awesome. Place a biker so you can fall back and then charge again? Awesome.

5) Weapon Options. I run a breacher team with 6 marines. 3 Storm Bolters, 3 Combi-Meltas, 4 Storm Shields. Can kill anything. 200 points.

1)I agree - you forgot to mention the points cost per weapon , and what other armies can bring to the field (with those points).

2 I agree - very good flyer - bit blunted due to lack of POTMS

3) true - DW benefits - but every other Space Marine chapter can utilize them better due to army wide boosts / chapter tactics

4) I agree - you forgot to mention the points and that KT members have 1W and die as fast as vanilla marines. 

5) not bad, primaris hellblasters have a similar punch, have two wounds each and are cheaper. 

 

not trying to piss on your parade...hell.. I love the DW....but realistically, we're in a tough tough spot when it comes to playing 8th edition currently.

 

Thanks!

 

I did have the same opinion, all things looked very cool to me, unless I started comparison.

Yep, the 4 FC squad is cool power, but it is investing 120 points of weapon in the 1W bodies, which lead to the idea that you need some "bullet-catchers" guys to die first, some SS and/or term, etc. Making a very expensive unit which is still comprised of 1W guys... getting everyone full loaded also called for the same problem - someone needs to die and its not fun to know that any wound and of your unit takes costs you 50 points. 

That comparison thing simply did not allow me to go past primaris without noticing that these are some really well-priced wounds to add some meat to my army. 

However, as I said I just thought that making them other army will be:

1) Less annoying theme-wise;

2) Allowing for some synergy, benefits from chapter tactics etc.

 

So your i.2 suggestion about DA/BA is what I thought about, get an SM army for more options, codex and use of primaris. And reserve some room for Corvus with double-FC KT which I mentioned in the OP. I just wonder, what is the best composition for such DW ally. And who will be the chapter most benefiting from it (i.e. if the Chapter has a very strong alternative to DW elite FC KT and has the same shortcomings the DW has, that would be not the best thing, if vice versa - that makes sense already).

 

Firstly, welcome to the B&C!

 

I asked a very similar question yesterday (link), and have a very similar stock of models to work from.

 

Since my general thoughts are already posted there, I won't repeat myself here. Instead, I will address a few of your other comments:

 

- You will have low numbers, so a little flexibility in some squads is probably sensible. This could be as simple as adding a power weapon and/or a storm shield to a bolter and chainsword squad for example, to give you lift in situational moments. Too much mixed equipment is points-expensive, and you won't be using at least some of it all the time (although what isn't being used may change depending on situation).

 

- For allies, you can either treat the DW Primaris as virtual in-codex "allies" and just paint them differently to show this, or actually have a proper allied force chosen from a different codex. It's up to you to decide what you prefer.

 

- If you are looking for a suitable SM ally force, you may want to consider which enemy your DW force is supposedly assisting against. For example, if you choose Crimson Fists or Black Templars, then an enemy like Orks is quite a fluffy enemy to choose. Depending on what you choose, you can perhaps then theme the DW more towards fighting that enemy, and use the ally to "fill in" the other elements of your force to give a more rounded all-comers list.

 

- The proportion of DW vs allies (or DW Primaris) is entirely up to you. Other allies to consider may be an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with associated troops, Officio Assassinorum, and also Imperial Guard.

 

- DW is not currently a very competitive army. That doesn't mean you can't win games with them, it just means that you need to me more pragmatic in your unit and equipment choices, and that you cannot afford (m)any mistakes when you play. Of course, when they eventually get a codex, DW may improve.

 

Thanks, sir! I have read your thread before I post mine and found some decent information there.

 

As for your comment about customization, well that is another issue why I liked DW to be a spec-ops part of my army. When it all comes to Corvus and 1-2 KT I get some room to temper with it. So I can have different guys painted and assembled and decide which KT DW is going to send for assistance this time - shall it come with stalker pattern, FC or heavy-melee. So that it makes utilize various options and feel fluffy with some ease on pragmatism as that concerns only a squad or two of whole army.

 

[Vel'Cona]

Welcome to the DW and our forums, Blackraw!  Will we get to see a WIP from you soon for your Watch Company?  :)