Who would be the least successful leader of the Heresy?

[Zeratil]

  Ignoring Lorgar's shenanigans for a moment, which Primarch would be the least successful in starting a civil war in a Horus-type role against the Emperor and why?

  I'll start and say Magnus. While he is, to my mind, unquestionably the most powerful individual Primarch of the eighteen* I think any rebellion started by him would get few allies and probably end in about 15 of the Primarchs dog-piling him into submission (it'd be a short fight too). While Magnus is definitely charismatic in his own way, he never gets on well with many of his brothers, nor does he seem to care to do so. I mean, going around and saying things like "By such deeds do we see that we are bound by no law besides that we impose on ourselves" while being a 15ft psychic mutant super-being isn't going to win you too many friends...

*In a 'hard power' what can they do themselves kind of way, ignoring more 'soft power' aspects like Horus' ability to befriend and convince his brothers - which is certainly incredibly powerful in its own way.

[Calas Typhon]

The problem is that Horus was probably the only one that could kick a heresy off at all because of how great he was. No other Primarch had the influence and friendship Horus did within the brotherhood. Angron was really the only Primarch that hated Horus on the side of the traitors, but due to some proper manipulation he stood against the Emperor with him no other primarch could achieve that without some ultimate manipulation. There is too much rivalry between the rest of the Legions to have another Primarch take up the leader of Heresy.

 

However, in terms of who would perform worst, the least successful would be either Angron, Curze or The Lion.

 

- Angron would be looked at immediately as a wild dog and put to the sword. I highly doubt Angron would even care, he would just start carving up planets in spite of the Emperor no matter who was on his side.

- Curze is far too unstable and unlikable. He would be similar to Angron, just carving things apart and doing his own thing out of spite.

- The Lion is too spergy to be able to talk to people without removing heads, let alone command 5+ legions at each others throats. 

[Black Cohort]

I think Sanguinius is the only other Primarch that might have achieved what Horus did. He was almost universally popular but at the same time I don't think he would have ever betrayed the Emperor.

[Zeratil]

I agree that Sanguinius is probably the only other viable choice for a successful rebellion but who would be the worst? :D

[mactire]

Yeah Sanguinius or Guilliman are probably the only 2 that would be able to gather a group together and keep them together. The rest of them could hardly work side by side even when the Emperor was commanding them.

 

Worst would be any pick from

 Angron, just because Angron

Curze, because he's a psycho

Morty/Pert, because they don't seem to get on with anyone

Alpha/Omegron, because you'd never know if you were actually rebelling or not, who was with you or what was the desired outcome.

Edited December 13, 2017 by mactire

[Brother Heinrich]

Um, Angron? lol

[Calas Typhon]

 

Morty

Alpha/Omegron

Mortarion would be middle/top and the twins I would actually put at the very top of the pile if it was down to me.

 

Mortarion was pretty off with the other Primarchs, however he was similar to a few. Stubborn as hell and had a love for strength over any weakness.

I could see a possibility that the strongman Legions: Iron Hands, Death Guard, Iron Warriors and World Eaters could merge into one group if Mortarion managed to explain weakness started to spread around the Imperium from the ruling of the Emperor in the form of a degeneracy or unwillingness to prosper. But it would have to be Horus levels of manipulation and goading to be able to convince the Iron Hands and Iron Warriors to betray the Emperor for that.

 

Alpharius and Omegon are the best choice I would say as they could subtly influence and hide in the shadows twisting events the way they wish for things to go. It would not be in the form of Horus' heresy either. It would be seeds planted early and grown throughout years and years. Just imagine the Alpha Legion replacing the Word Bearers. Things would more than likely be handled a bit better.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Warsmith Kroeger

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

 

Morty

Alpha/Omegron

Mortarion would be middle/top and the twins I would actually put at the very top of the pile if it was down to me.

 

Mortarion was pretty off with the other Primarchs, however he was similar to a few. Stubborn as hell and had a love for strength over any weakness.

I could see a possibility that the strongman Legions: Iron Hands, Death Guard, Iron Warriors and World Eaters could merge into one group if Mortarion managed to explain weakness started to spread around the Imperium from the ruling of the Emperor in the form of a degeneracy or unwillingness to prosper. But it would have to be Horus levels of manipulation and goading to be able to convince the Iron Hands and Iron Warriors to betray the Emperor for that.

 

Alpharius and Omegon are the best choice I would say as they could subtly influence and hide in the shadows twisting events the way they wish for things to go. It would not be in the form of Horus' heresy either. It would be seeds planted early and grown throughout years and years. Just imagine the Alpha Legion replacing the Word Bearers. Things would more than likely be handled a bit better.

 

 

I am pretty sure the Alpha Legion would have ended up killing themselves in the shadows just as they did in the heresy. The plans within plans within plans paranoia would have guaranteed that.

 

I think Angron is by far the worst possible candidate, followed by Curze... and Vulkan. Yes Vulkan. The dude could not pull the trigger on Curze when he had the chance and was well aware of what he would do and had done. He would be the epitome of the inept leader constrained to inaction by his own moral code.

 

Magnus had a suprising amount of fellowships. Sanguinis, The Khan and Lorgar held him in high regard. His Librarius project was respected by many legions. Horus knew he would not turn willingly, as he was also a man of principles.

 

Magnus would have brought the heresy in a different area, as he apparently had the ability to pluck ships from the warp.

[rendingon1+]

Dorn definitely. He's unable to accept other people's point of view, unable to change his, unable to compromise, always seeing fault in the others etc. Because of this he is one of the most conflict creating primarchs and definitely the worst "loyalist" choice. Generally a person who you don't want as a leader.

Edited December 13, 2017 by rendingon1+

[Memento Of Prospero]

Dorn definitely. He's unable to accept other people's point of view, unable to change his, unable to compromise . Because of this he is one of the most conflict creating primarchs and definitely the worst "loyalist" choice. Generally a person who you don't want as a leader.

 

I think this comes from the fact that he was depicted by so many different authors in the heresy and the fact that for the entire duration of it he was in a rather unique and unmanageable position; He was the Praetorian of Terra, which I would wager was in the end much more demanding than being Warmaster.

 

Also, Horus was much the same; just not to your face. He had to be on his deathbed to admit a painful and undeniable truth he had been burying all these years.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Athramar

[rendingon1+]

 

Dorn definitely. He's unable to accept other people's point of view, unable to change his, unable to compromise . Because of this he is one of the most conflict creating primarchs and definitely the worst "loyalist" choice. Generally a person who you don't want as a leader.

 

I think this comes from the fact that he was depicted by so many different authors in the heresy and the fact that for the entire duration of it he was in a rather unique and unmanageable position; He was the Praetorian of Terra, which I would wager was in the end much more demanding than being Warmaster.

 

Also, Horus was much the same; just not to your face. He had to be on his deathbed to admit a painful and undeniable truth he had been burying all these years.

 

Actually he wasn't portrayed that much for discrepancies to appear. Also I'm sure we won't be cherrypicking. Most of IF stuff (howerver few it might be) is from John French and in Tempar audio you can see that Dorn is percieved as "problematic" even by his first cap. He's even in conflict with Malcador who runs covert ops, espionnage and more esoteric activities because it doesn't "meet his approval" I don't quite understand why Praetorian of Terra impacts his portrayal in any way?

 

But that's the point - you don't judge people how they are "deep inside" but by how they interact with you/others. Dorn was... Dorny while Horus was charismatic etc. So generally no, Horus was not the same.

[Calas Typhon]

 

 

 

Morty

Alpha/Omegron

Mortarion would be middle/top and the twins I would actually put at the very top of the pile if it was down to me.

 

Mortarion was pretty off with the other Primarchs, however he was similar to a few. Stubborn as hell and had a love for strength over any weakness.

I could see a possibility that the strongman Legions: Iron Hands, Death Guard, Iron Warriors and World Eaters could merge into one group if Mortarion managed to explain weakness started to spread around the Imperium from the ruling of the Emperor in the form of a degeneracy or unwillingness to prosper. But it would have to be Horus levels of manipulation and goading to be able to convince the Iron Hands and Iron Warriors to betray the Emperor for that.

 

Alpharius and Omegon are the best choice I would say as they could subtly influence and hide in the shadows twisting events the way they wish for things to go. It would not be in the form of Horus' heresy either. It would be seeds planted early and grown throughout years and years. Just imagine the Alpha Legion replacing the Word Bearers. Things would more than likely be handled a bit better.

 

 

I am pretty sure the Alpha Legion would have ended up killing themselves in the shadows just as they did in the heresy. The plans within plans within plans paranoia would have guaranteed that.

 

I think Angron is by far the worst possible candidate, followed by Curze... and Vulkan. Yes Vulkan. The dude could not pull the trigger on Curze when he had the chance and was well aware of what he would do and had done. He would be the epitome of the inept leader constrained to inaction by his own moral code.

Well the thing with the Alpha Legion is that once things get to a point where everyone is literally at war, nothing really matters because the ending will be the same. Corruption of humanity and eternal war until things are sorted out. By that time, the Legion could have killed itself off, but It would have done the job. 

 

I agree with Vulkan being one of the worst. I also agree that Dorn would be too. Dorn was one of the Primarchs I feel could never actually willingly be corrupted other than in scenarios like above as he was extremely fierce in his loyalty, far too seriously one tracked and never looked for the Emperor's favour. Another problem with Dorn is that he can't and wont lie to the point of harming situations which would impact the Heresy quite a bit.  

[Ishagu]

Easily Angron, followed by Curze, followed by Mortarion and then Perturabo.

 

If you look at a lot of the traitors they are mostly stubborn, difficult or loners. Horus was the only one able to form decent relations with most of them.

The Lion is the only truly difficult one of the loyalists.

 

Horus and Lorgar were very charismatic. Magnus was a tragedy of fate. I really can't comment on Alpharius' character.

[Withershadow]

Depends, if Magnus went full traitor early on, he could kill all of the other Legions in Warp transit like Tzeench offered him to do with the Wolves (but probably a calculated bluff).

 

I would say they are all largely incompetent except Horus and Guilliman and maybe Ferrus? Others are either incompetent as described above, or in the case of guys like Lion and Sanguinius have too many personality issues/mental hang ups.

[m0nolith]

Angry Ron.

 

He literally has a part of his brain missing.

Edited December 14, 2017 by m0nolith

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Angron or Cruze. I think Mortarion might be close to that. For the Loyalist, Dorn. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Angron, definitely. 

[Zeratil]

I think Angron is a very strong contender, just because so many of his brothers dismiss or belittle him as a savage. That being said if he started a rebellion based off of arguing that the Emperor was a tyrant (#IAmSpartacus) he might get a lot of popular support from conquered worlds or even sections of the Mechanicum. He'd lose, but I think he could make a fight of it

[foamy248]

I'd throw the Khan and his White Scars into the mix. He had too few friends/allies among the primarchs to be taken seriously and I doubt he'd have been able to turn his brothers to the Dark Gods. Similar to Magnus, it probably would've ended up with the other Legions doggypiling on them. Edited December 15, 2017 by foamy248

[Calas Typhon]

I'd throw the Khan and his White Scars into the mix. He had too few friends/allies among the primarchs to be taken seriously and I doubt he'd have been able to turn his brothers to the Dark Gods. Similar to Magnus, it probably would've ended up with the other Legions doggypiling on them.

 

Actually I would put the Khan as second after Angron. I doubt half the Primarchs would even remember who the Khan was if he started a heresy.

 

'Lord Dorn! the White Scars have just entered the sol system and  Lord Jaghatai Khan is requesting permission to proceed to Terra to stand with you'

'Who in the 9 bastions of Albia are the White Scars and who the hell is Jaghatai Khan? are they with us?'

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

I'd throw the Khan and his White Scars into the mix. He had too few friends/allies among the primarchs to be taken seriously and I doubt he'd have been able to turn his brothers to the Dark Gods. Similar to Magnus, it probably would've ended up with the other Legions doggypiling on them.

 

Actually I would put the Khan as second after Angron. I doubt half the Primarchs would even remember who the Khan was if he started a heresy.

 

'Lord Dorn! the White Scars have just entered the sol system and  Lord Jaghatai Khan is requesting permission to proceed to Terra to stand with you'

'Who in the 9 bastions of Albia are the White Scars and who the hell is Jaghatai Khan? are they with us?'

 

 

Kurze could not possibly fair better than the Kagan. He distrusts the powers of chaos and was already rogue halfway through the great crusade and was close to no one.

[b1soul]

Yeah...

 

Angron and Curze would be worst

 

I think Dorn (uncompromising), Khan (elusive), Corax (elusive), Alpharius (elusive), Lion (arrogant and but without the charm to make up for it) would also be bad choices

[helterskelter]

Let's face it the lion couldn't broker a decent power deal between himself and Perturabo. He can't take critique (see chaplains head), And he would be a Lord of ash after he burned everything in his path assuming he managed some success.

 

Angron might have been decent without the nails, yeah he didn't take the whole planet but he pulled off a pretty decent Spartacus and gathered a substantial army of slaves under the influence of the nails. He also doesn't care if he lives, see how he throws himself into everything, I reckon if he managed to organise something, he'd give it a bloody good showing, just multiplying by scale what he did on nuceria, I think as long as he killed the emperor it wouldn't matter that he dies in the process. That's his victory.

Curze has a way of fighting, and if he's listened too he could probably generate a decent following. It's all about finding the right person to listen. If he would have went to Magnus first for example, someone more capable of understanding his foresight, he might have acquired powerful allies more quickly.

 

A lot of what ifs, all depending on various factors.

[b1soul]

The Lion probably couldn't charm his way out of a wet paper bag

[M@verik115]

Curze was a psycho, but at least he had some tact. 
Angron would be the worst by a huge margin. He doesn't have the patience to plan anything let alone the nerve/attention to execute more tactically demanding procedures.