Who would be the least successful leader of the Heresy?

[Lord Marshal]

I'm surprised people are putting Mortarion so high on the failure ladder. Other than his obsession with snubbing out sorcery, wasn't he the most stable Primarch that Horus ended up with post-Fulgrim's possession? Yeah, he was a loner, but not to the degree of Perty. He wasn't bat:cuss like Angorn or Curze, he wasn't going off the deep end like Lorgar or Fulgrim either.

 

Sure he'd be lower down on the scale than pretty much any loyalist Primarch, but he was about the only one with his head (relatively) intact before Terra.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Lord Marshal

[Calas Typhon]

I'm surprised people are putting Mortarion so high on the failure ladder. Other than his obsession with snubbing out sorcery, wasn't he the most stable Primarch that Horus ended up with post-Fulgrim's possession? Yeah, he was a loner, but not to the degree of Perty. He wasn't bat:cuss like Angorn or Curze, he wasn't going off the deep end like Lorgar or Fulgrim either.

As far as I am aware, Mortarion was not completely bat:cuss deranged and he definitely was pretty stable compared to others. 

 

Mortarion was by all means absolutely disgusted with Psykers, filled to the tip with corrupting gasses and toxins and quite annoyed with the Emperor. But he was at the start The definition of the unstoppable force, for the better of humanity and the destruction of Tyrants. The Death Guard were massively respected within the Legions perhaps save from the Salamanders due to the use of Bio-war against populace and the Thousands Sons for obvious reasons.

 

I don't really think he was as much a loner as people make out either. He made war with many of the other Primarchs often and always goaded the other Primarchs he was fighting with such as Ferrus which has to be pointed. But they always respected him and the Legion I would bet, The Iron Hands had respect for them as well as the Night Lords and Luna Wolves, that is certain.

 

Providing he had a decent base to start a heresy as I mentioned before, persuading others that the imperium was too weak to survive or that the Emperor was a Tyrant, I could actually see the strongman legions flocking to his movement and perhaps even the Night Lords and Word Bearers if Lorgar is chastised in this scenario. Although he would have to be a lead into the Heresy rather than be an actual leader.

[Ficinus]

The Lion might have been the worst given that the rest of the traitors would have had to wait forever for him to show up.

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

I'm surprised people are putting Mortarion so high on the failure ladder. Other than his obsession with snubbing out sorcery, wasn't he the most stable Primarch that Horus ended up with post-Fulgrim's possession? Yeah, he was a loner, but not to the degree of Perty. He wasn't bat:cuss like Angorn or Curze, he wasn't going off the deep end like Lorgar or Fulgrim either.

As far as I am aware, Mortarion was not completely bat:cuss deranged and he definitely was pretty stable compared to others. 

 

Mortarion was by all means absolutely disgusted with Psykers, filled to the tip with corrupting gasses and toxins and quite annoyed with the Emperor. But he was at the start The definition of the unstoppable force, for the better of humanity and the destruction of Tyrants. The Death Guard were massively respected within the Legions perhaps save from the Salamanders due to the use of Bio-war against populace and the Thousands Sons for obvious reasons.

 

I don't really think he was as much a loner as people make out either. He made war with many of the other Primarchs often and always goaded the other Primarchs he was fighting with such as Ferrus which has to be pointed. But they always respected him and the Legion I would bet, The Iron Hands had respect for them as well as the Night Lords and Luna Wolves, that is certain.

 

Providing he had a decent base to start a heresy as I mentioned before, persuading others that the imperium was too weak to survive or that the Emperor was a Tyrant, I could actually see the strongman legions flocking to his movement and perhaps even the Night Lords and Word Bearers if Lorgar is chastised in this scenario. Although he would have to be a lead into the Heresy rather than be an actual leader.

 

 

The problem with Mortarion is that he cannot trust anyone, not even the Emperor. His paranoia levels were well above the requirements that befit a leader prior to Nikaea... Malcador had to show him a spoiler for him to no throw a potentially renegade tantrum.

 

As for being respected, I don't know if that's the right word for it. In the short where he goads Ferrus during the eldar campaign, it's not for him to better himself, it's no shiv him in the ribs about his leadership position and inability to deal with a problem he felt was trivial. In turn, Ferrus's reaction is quite clear: He doesn't want to belittled by him and got really angry.

[Calas Typhon]

Mortarion just had his main target on Barbarus sniped in front of him by the man he serves only to find out that his father employed the same type of witch that he was fighting against (in his eyes) it was right that he was mad tbh. He would never be a good leader, but he could lead into a heresy pretty well I believe strongly.

 

Ferris had a lot of respect for the death guard regardless of the fighting between between brothers.

 

"Say what you like about the Fourteenth Legion. They are mean, ugly bastards but tenacious. There's no one else I'd rather have by my side in a war of attrition, and almost anyone else I'd rather have against me."

[Zeratil]

I think the Mortation Heresy would be alot like the Angron Heresy. He might not get many of his brothers on side but he could probably swing a massive amount of support from 'kill all the psykers'. Maybe less so from the legions but certainly the average psychic-hating imperial citizen or soldier (many of whom will have seen numerous friends killed by wibbly psychic xenos or humans)

[Skalpynock]

Mortarion could possibly get Corax and Angron on board (due to similar upbringings), though he would be merely an instigator rather than a leader. Curze and Perturabo may join to find redemption for their genocides. If I ever write more on this possibility, I'll call it the Tyrantfall. I can already tell you it won't end well. Edited December 18, 2017 by Skalpynock

[Zeratil]

Oooooh. Good name. Also an excellent route of debate, what would each <Primarch> heresy be called?

[Kizzdougs]

Mortarion could possibly get Corax and Angron on board (due to similar upbringings), though he would be merely an instigator rather than a leader. Curze and Perturabo may join to find redemption for their genocides. If I ever write more on this possibility, I'll call it the Tyrantfall. I can already tell you it won't end well.

Corax shared some values with Mortarion but he was also suspicious of Mortarion's loyalty to the Emperor even before the Heresy kicked off. Newer fluff might contradict it, but in the Death Guard: Index Astartes article it describes how Corax went to the Emperor because he was suspicious of Mortarion's closeness with Horus and feared that he was loyal to Horus, not the Emperor. The Emperor dismissed Corax's fears on the grounds that loyalty to Horus was de facto loyalty to the Emperor ( ). So Corax probably wouldn't have followed Mortarion, but it's not impossible.

 

The new audio book First Lord of the Imperium has got he thinking about this topic even more...

[Withershadow]

The plot hook introduced in that audio drama doesn't make much sense to me, and if anything just seeks to rationalize all the crazy "why did you do that" stuff the Emperor pulled to alienate and/or enrage various Primarchs.

[Kizzdougs]

The plot hook introduced in that audio drama doesn't make much sense to me, and if anything just seeks to rationalize all the crazy "why did you do that" stuff the Emperor pulled to alienate and/or enrage various Primarchs.

Or Malcador was just lying... and if he's not why does it matter if it rationalises some of the Emperor's more controversial decisions?

[Ficinus]

Weird, maybe off-topic thought, but what would have happened if Malcador had lead the Heresy? Could he have been better suited to utilize the mechanisms of the bureaucracy and the state to rebel?

[Withershadow]

 

The plot hook introduced in that audio drama doesn't make much sense to me, and if anything just seeks to rationalize all the crazy "why did you do that" stuff the Emperor pulled to alienate and/or enrage various Primarchs.

Or Malcador was just lying... and if he's not why does it matter if it rationalises some of the Emperor's more controversial decisions?

 

Because it means the Emperor didn't simply overlook a few things given the scope of his ambition, but was actively and purposefully being stupid and counter-productive.  Then again, considering he apparently staked the whole conflict on the Webway project succeeding (which would still be far from impregnable, especially given humanity's evolution), the whole plan was dumb from the start.  Lorgar was right, our only hope is apotheosis through symbiosis.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

The Primarch who would be the least successful in Horus-style role would have to be Russ IMO. He doesn't have the friends, the size of his legion works against him (which doesn't stop him from overextending at every opportunity), and has no interest in the political side of things. That and as Space Wolf fan there is a certain point where you just have to accept that his main contribution to the HH is doing some dirty work for Horus.     

 

Angron would be the second worst but I think if he decided to do it, he wouldn't have worried about allies and probably hit the big E hard and fast. Its a lot easier to win a fight if you don't really care about what happens next. 

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

Truthfully I have to cast my vote with Angron. Everything about him makes his the worst candidate to gather support and play out any kind of successful rebellion. In the end I think he would have just been deleted from history and record Primarch and Legion number 3.

 

In the end I don't think any of the Primarchs excluding Sanguinius would have been able to pull of a Horus Heresy type rebellion.

[Withershadow]

The Primarch who would be the least successful in Horus-style role would have to be Russ IMO. He doesn't have the friends, the size of his legion works against him (which doesn't stop him from overextending at every opportunity), and has no interest in the political side of things. That and as Space Wolf fan there is a certain point where you just have to accept that his main contribution to the HH is doing some dirty work for Horus.    

And potentially delaying the Lion's fleet on its way to Terra.  Russ, the secret agent of Chaos?  Is that why he went to the Eye after the Heresy, was he being called to heel by his true masters? :P

[Kasper_Hawser]

Somehow I'm glad that only one person brought up Russ so far as one of the contenders to "worst lead" the heresy. And here I thought everyone hated the furry primarch.

 

Furry and dog jokes aside, I think Russ does have charisma and unlike some Primarchs, he DOES have some experience in governing a tribe or a bunch of tribes which can be extrapolated to galactic diplomacy. He may be a jerk but he is never a jerk without a reason, even if he is hypocritical at times (without realising it). In my opinion, he was the way he is because he had locked himself and his Legion into an Attack Dog mode for so long, it had alienated him and his Legion until he realised the mode was backfiring.

 

Sadly this is all my opinion and observation, and the only written word of another Primarch regarding Russ as suitable leader is grand papa smurf himself. I forget which story, possibly Unremembered Empire, but I believe he was conversing with Lion and remarking that he wished that there were any other Primarch other than himself or Lion to be emperor of Imperium Secundus.

 

Lion asked "Even Russ?"

 

Guilliman replied, "Yes, even Russ".

 

Back to OP though, I wouldn't put Curze or Angron at the bottom, although they would be close. I would put the twins Alpharius and Omegon instead, those idiots have an even worse or no concept of diplomacy and leadership unless it is related to backstabbing. Curze and Angron at least have some respect from the other Primarchs, if only for their brutality and martial prowess.

 

I know some have mentioned that Khan also had no diplomatic tact, but neither did the Khan go out of his way to annoy anybody. And nobody could dispute his martial talent and leadership. the Twins on the other hand, have virtually nothing to show their reliability or prowess. Even Lorgar, arguably the WORST fighter among them, is more liked and respected then the twins.

 

sorry if I sound like I'm bashing the Twins, but seriously, GW only gives us smoke and mirrors regarding them to the point i, the ominipresient reader,  can't believe them let alone the actual characters in the story.

 

I would like to point out to those who think the "unfriendly primarchs" cannot lead the heresy, perhaps they can't but not because they lack in strategic planning. Mortarion, Perturbo, Lion, Dorn, and even that peacock Fulgrim are famous for being methodical and orderly in their rites of war.

[Zeratil]

There's a lot of critique to be levelled at Russ (and the wolves, and any Primarch, and any Legion) but I don't think he'd be the least successful leader of the heresy by a long shot. I think Russ would be like that guy you know at the office/sports team/whatever. You don't really like him that much but you have to admit he throws himself 110% into everything he does. He'd get some of his brothers onside at least, even ones that weren't personally that fond of him. I've also always considered Russ the Primarch most loyal to the Emperor (with Dorn taking the position of most loyal to the Imperium/Mankind). 

[Kizzdougs]

When Guilliman said "yes, even Russ" doesn't that kind of imply that Russ was last on the 'list' of preferred 'Emperor'?

 

Re Alpharius: The biggest challenge for Alpharius-Omegon would be recruiting other Primarchs to their cause, not a supposed lack of leadership or diplomacy. Many of the more established Primarchs saw Alpharius as a 'junior Primarch' and wouldn't be willing to join their rebellion. But then again, if the Twins lead a rebellion against the Emperor you can bet your bottom dollar that it would look nothing like the Horus Heresy. It definitely wouldn't be nine Legions vs nine Legions in massive battles such as Isstvan III and V, Calth, or Tallarn. That's just not their style. So while they're not capable of leading a Horus style rebellion and they weren't considered trustworthy, they're definitely not "idiots". And what do you mean by 'prowess'? Are you talking about Alpharius' personal combat prowess or the martial prowess of the XXth Legion, because the XXth Legion could be pretty damn effective.

So I agree that they wouldn't be successful at leading a Horus style rebellion, but I think you're being way too harsh in your characterisation of the Twins.

 

 

Just a minor point: why do you have Fulgrim on a list of "unfriendly Primarchs"? I always felt that he was one of the better liked Primarchs. He was very close with Horus and Ferrus and he didn't have any Dorn/Perturabo, Magnus/Mortarion, Magnus/Russ level beef. He was diplomatic and charismatic.

 

[Marshal Rohr]

Fulgrim was fairly popular with his brothers. It was normally the meat heads like Dorn and Perturabo who had a problem with him but not the other way around. 

[Zeratil]

I think Marshal is right, part of the issue is that we don't see much of Fulgrim before the Blade of Lear and the EC fall to chaos very hard and very early in the heresy.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

On Alpharius and Omegon, I do believe that they could start a success rebellion but as stated by Kizzdoug it would look nothing like the Horus Heresy. It isn't about organizing massive battles in the open it is about corrupting the system in secret, organizing hostilities between the different Primarchs by faux attacks from those they were all to willing to destroy each other (Leman and or Mortarion who were looking for any excuse to destroy the Thousand Sons for examples). Placing agents to change orders or redirect orders incorrectly so they don't arrive on time and the strength of key legions are spent fighting the crusade. It would be a war of misinformation which would sow distrust among the forces of the Empire and aid in pitting Primarch against Primarch. If they prop up others to appear to be the leaders of the rebellion as figure heads and you start to have an army forming to take advantage of the crumbling Empire that would result from the actions of some who were all to willing to indulge in willful ignorance even if they felt things were not right and the advice of others. Look at all the damage Lorgar did with starting the religion against the concepts the Emperor instilled in the Imperial Truth. A single attack on the Emperor's foundation for his vision of the Imperium that would spiral out of control and contribute heavily to giving us the Imperium of the 41st Millennium. Lorgar won a victory against the Emperor with that act (which started out with him being loyal) imagine what a full on war designed to corrupt the Empire and turn it against itself might have created.

 

I agree with Marshal Rohr about Fulgrim, he was popular among the Primarchs for the most part, to bad he took up that blade and didn't heed the warnings of Eldrad.

 

I still think that out of all the Primarchs Angron would have the least success. He lacked the patience (damned nails were part of that I know) to properly plan things out. He lacked the charisma to draw supporters, and even among those Primarchs that might have had some respect for them none would follow him because he wasn't of the correct demeanor to lead them (I would argue he wasn't really fit to lead his own Legion and I feel pity for Khârn's character, he was a character I liked before the nails). I just can't see him gathering enough support under his command, I can't see him creating any situation to his benefit to offset his weaknesses, I am probably doing him a discredit by saying that I think in the end his plan would be to make a surprise attack on the Emperor and kill him which he wouldn't have had the ability to do in terms of support. Even if he made it all the way to the Emperor in his attack I don't think he had the ability to defeat the Emperor in combat.

 

Truthfully I don't think anyone besides Sanguinius or Horus had the ability to pull off a Horus style rebellion and been able to lead it. And I can't say that my earlier statements about Alpharius and Omegon would have panned out in a way that wouldn't have just ripped the Imperium of Man apart and destroyed it. Maybe it would have just regressed humanity back to the state it was in before the Emperor's Crusade. The two Primarchs of the two legions I play would be unable to garner the type of support and orchestrate a Horus style rebellion in my opinion (those being Dorn and Magnus) either. While my dislike for Angron might be tainting my view of him I am trying to look at it without letting my biases dictate why I think one would succeed while others would fail but maybe I'm failing at it.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

We’re told Ferrus is a spectacular leader, that Guilliman felt he was one of his “Dauntless Few”, that he was given commamd of the Imperial response to Horus’s betrayal, but ive always felt that he was among the less competent of the Primarchs

[Kizzdougs]

We’re told Ferrus is a spectacular leader, that Guilliman felt he was one of his “Dauntless Few”, that he was given commamd of the Imperial response to Horus’s betrayal, but ive always felt that he was among the less competent of the Primarchs

Yeah, Ferrus really suffers from his depiction in Fulgrim where he is just a support character that is used to highlight certain qualities and character aspects of Fulgrim. Black Library didn't really expect the Horus Heresy series to take off the way that it did, so Ferrus, more than any other Primarch, really suffered from a lack of development and his only real role in Fulgrim was to show the tradgedy of Fulgrim's fall.

 

More recent material is much more complimentary of him. Book Two: Massacre describes Ferrus as "...one of the finest and most senior field commanders in the Imperium... one of the most veteran of the Primarchs". It also mentions that the Iron Hands were "one of the most powerful and famed Legions".

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

We’re told Ferrus is a spectacular leader, that Guilliman felt he was one of his “Dauntless Few”, that he was given commamd of the Imperial response to Horus’s betrayal, but ive always felt that he was among the less competent of the Primarchs

Yeah, Ferrus really suffers from his depiction in Fulgrim where he is just a support character that is used to highlight certain qualities and character aspects of Fulgrim. Black Library didn't really expect the Horus Heresy series to take off the way that it did, so Ferrus, more than any other Primarch, really suffered from a lack of development and his only real role in Fulgrim was to show the tradgedy of Fulgrim's fall.

 

More recent material is much more complimentary of him. Book Two: Massacre describes Ferrus as "...one of the finest and most senior field commanders in the Imperium... one of the most veteran of the Primarchs". It also mentions that the Iron Hands were "one of the most powerful and famed Legions".

The Iron Hands are the Boba Fett of legions. Circa Empires original release.