Who would be the least successful leader of the Heresy?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

We’re told Ferrus is a spectacular leader, that Guilliman felt he was one of his “Dauntless Few”, that he was given commamd of the Imperial response to Horus’s betrayal, but ive always felt that he was among the less competent of the Primarchs

Yeah, Ferrus really suffers from his depiction in Fulgrim where he is just a support character that is used to highlight certain qualities and character aspects of Fulgrim. Black Library didn't really expect the Horus Heresy series to take off the way that it did, so Ferrus, more than any other Primarch, really suffered from a lack of development and his only real role in Fulgrim was to show the tradgedy of Fulgrim's fall.

 

More recent material is much more complimentary of him. Book Two: Massacre describes Ferrus as "...one of the finest and most senior field commanders in the Imperium... one of the most veteran of the Primarchs". It also mentions that the Iron Hands were "one of the most powerful and famed Legions".

 

 

I'll have to re-read that. most of my opinion is formed from the BL releases.

[Kizzdougs]

Yeah, hopefully Ferrus gets the treatment that he deserves when they release his Primarch series book :tu:

[LukeTheButcher]

Its Angron.

 

Not sure wh ythis has lasted to 3 pages....

 

Dude was the only one not to conqure his own planet. His Legion doesn't so much as follow him as just go beserk alongside him. Half of the non-Astartes didn't want to fight alongside him when he was loyal. Why would anyone alse follow the rabid dog Primarch?

 

Mortatian would have made a semi effective leader of the Heresy. My only concern about it being successful is Mortartians approach to attrition. Without the AM allies on your side, replacement men and gear is a serious issue.

[Kasper_Hawser]

When Guilliman said "yes, even Russ" doesn't that kind of imply that Russ was last on the 'list' of preferred 'Emperor'?

 

Re Alpharius: The biggest challenge for Alpharius-Omegon would be recruiting other Primarchs to their cause, not a supposed lack of leadership or diplomacy. Many of the more established Primarchs saw Alpharius as a 'junior Primarch' and wouldn't be willing to join their rebellion. But then again, if the Twins lead a rebellion against the Emperor you can bet your bottom dollar that it would look nothing like the Horus Heresy. It definitely wouldn't be nine Legions vs nine Legions in massive battles such as Isstvan III and V, Calth, or Tallarn. That's just not their style. So while they're not capable of leading a Horus style rebellion and they weren't considered trustworthy, they're definitely not "idiots". And what do you mean by 'prowess'? Are you talking about Alpharius' personal combat prowess or the martial prowess of the XXth Legion, because the XXth Legion could be pretty damn effective.

So I agree that they wouldn't be successful at leading a Horus style rebellion, but I think you're being way too harsh in your characterisation of the Twins.

 

 

Just a minor point: why do you have Fulgrim on a list of "unfriendly Primarchs"? I always felt that he was one of the better liked Primarchs. He was very close with Horus and Ferrus and he didn't have any Dorn/Perturabo, Magnus/Mortarion, Magnus/Russ level beef. He was diplomatic and charismatic.

 

Sorry, not sure why I put Fulgrim on list of unfriendly primarchs.

 

Yeah when I listen to your point of the Twins, perhaps I was too biased, or rather, I keep thinking if they could wage the heresy the way HORUS did, you know, open battle and stuff.

 

I'm pretty sure that when Guilliman mentioned that he would even have Russ as the new Emperor, it wasn't in context of comparing the primarchs to each other and see which was most preferable to be the next emperor, it was in comparing to HIMSELF and Lion. But yeah, could be interpreted as Russ would be the last resort for being Emperor.

 

I found it really strange that Guilliman would have such an opinion of Russ considering how nearly everyone wrote him off as an embarrassment. Maybe he saw Leman Russ hidden SAT scores and found to his shock that they were higher than his. Like discovering the high school punk of the class is actually on the honors roll. :)

 

Kidding. This is one of the contradictions of Leman Russ that still makes him my favorite primarch despite his many faults.

[Jamafore]

I think that's more indicative of the Lion's feelings on Russ than Guilliman's, and the fact that Guilliman knew he himself could not be Emperor or it would only appear to outsiders that he was doing the same thing as Horus. At that point Guilliman would have taken a rabid ferret as Emperor if one showed up on the primarch list.

 

Remember, Guilliman was setting up Secundus as A) a back-up plan in case Terra was gone, and B ) because he had no clue what Terra's condition was as all communication to Terra was cut-off by the Lorgar's mess.

[karden00]

I feel like Angron might be being sold at least a little short?

He is in a degenerative state, he is getting worse. So whatever condition he was in at the time of the first rebellion at Nuceria, he is worse now.

But everything he did on Nuceria seems to have been done with a half decent idea of what to do and what not to do in war.

Then again, he wasn’t up against fellow, healthy, Primarch’s.

I dunno.

[Kizzdougs]

I feel like Angron might be being sold at least a little short?

He is in a degenerative state, he is getting worse. So whatever condition he was in at the time of the first rebellion at Nuceria, he is worse now.

But everything he did on Nuceria seems to have been done with a half decent idea of what to do and what not to do in war.

Then again, he wasn’t up against fellow, healthy, Primarch’s.

I dunno.

Yeah, Angron is no joke and he's still a Primarch at the end of the day, it's just that he doesn't really measure up to most of the other Primarchs when it comes to coalition building/grand strategy etc.

[Calas Typhon]

Ângron was at the start same enough as far as we know, he managed to not be slain by the Emperor after first contact which is always a plus.

 

I very much doubt we will get any information until his primarchs book, but Betrayer is right at the end of his sanity and deteriation. IIRC that is a good 100 years from finding to transformation. During the fight with Russ he actually managed to keep his cool, fight and talk. Which ain't something you would expect from a beast lost to the nails from the moment go in the shadow crusade.

 

He probably could lead a heresy in the same way mortarion would. As in, open it up as a force ready to clear the galaxy of undesirables. Leading would never ever happen unless all the other primarchs decide that the metal cables and pain are too cool to pass on

[shandwen]

Ferrus was the least successful in the hours heresy, looking his head early on and sitting out the rest.

That being said I would vote towards those who threw fits and wandered off. Magnus running off and not doing much of anything (which he had decided on before the puppies even showed up), or perhaps the Lion who couldn't quite make up his mind on who to trust and what to do with those who showed their loyalty was suspect (but he still performed his role once he chose what that role would be...).

Many primarchs didn't really keep an eye on the goal, or had not created a discipline in their troops to be successful in the end (Morty having typhus run off with a large portion of his troops/ships, Nightlords with their issues, etc.). You could even say coral for how the RG were so small as to be inconsequential past two or three actions.

We can say that a handful were active and successful in what they did, but probably the worst to lead would have been Alpharius. The solar aux hated working for the Alpha legion, no one really knew what was happeneing, and their plans were to complicated to be reasonable when faced with an actually prepared enemy (but if they had started the HH it probably would have started with 9 legion flagship blowing up with their primarchs dead in the space hills that would be left).

[Calas Typhon]

Many primarchs didn't really keep an eye on the goal, or had not created a discipline in their troops to be successful in the end (Morty having typhus run off with a large portion of his troops/ships)

Not entirely true there, Mortarion did lose contact with the other fleet after splitting his forces into two large battlegroups down the line but that would be Typhon alone I would bet who caused that due to love from Nurgle. The Death Guard under the splinter fleet with Typhon carried out Mortarions orders and harried the Dark Angels rather successfully until a rejoining down the line when moving onto Terra, although Typhon was quite obviously ignoring Mortarions calls, but he was a mate of Erebus, so its pretty obvious he aint gonna be too co-operative when he starts getting a bit of warp power.

 

The Death Guard I can say hand on heart were one of the top legions for inner Legion discipline and Mortarion was rarely one to throw fits outside of moaning at filthy Psykers. Which he had a point about. 

[bluntblade]

I feel like Angron might be being sold at least a little short?

He is in a degenerative state, he is getting worse. So whatever condition he was in at the time of the first rebellion at Nuceria, he is worse now.

But everything he did on Nuceria seems to have been done with a half decent idea of what to do and what not to do in war.

Then again, he wasn’t up against fellow, healthy, Primarch’s.

I dunno.

He also dragged out the campaign, hitting half a dozen unnecessary worlds along the way to Armatura and nearly fighting his own allies.

[Calas Typhon]

 

He also dragged out the campaign, hitting half a dozen unnecessary worlds along the way to Armatura and nearly fighting his own allies.

 

 

Lorgar did deserve a pounding by the World Eaters though, I don't fault Angron on that.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

He also dragged out the campaign, hitting half a dozen unnecessary worlds along the way to Armatura and nearly fighting his own allies.

 

 

Lorgar did deserve a pounding by the World Eaters though, I don't fault Angron on that.

 

 

Whether Lorgar deserves it or not (which incidentally, he actually didn't at least not to Angron), it shows Angron's instability and one track mindedness to killing even when he doesn't need to or help his campaign. I'm not saying he is stupid, even if he is crazy and brain damaged, but I can still picture the more "smarter" primarchs like Lion, Khan, Perturabo and Guilliman himself running circles around him and his World Eaters. For example, Khan would hit and run until the world eaters start killing each other for lack of not catching the White Scars.The correct counter would be to ambush him,or as in Path of Heaven, box him in with multiple legions which was what Mortarion and Eidolon did.

 

Hmmmmmmmm, actually I may have to retract that Angron has no tact or diplomatic skills. He did convince Lorgar to hunt the Dark Eldar together. ....

 

.... nope. I still rank Angron near the top of the list of most incompetent primarch to lead the heresy. 

 

@ kroeger - I agree that Mortarion would have been a competent warleader, just not an especially charismatic one. 

[bluntblade]

The Word Bearers' response to the Dark Eldar appearing was a resounding "thank the Pantheon"

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

I feel people here are under-selling Angron a bit. Sure he would not be able to mass any support, but his single-mindedness and general disregard for either himself or his troops would enable him to pull of a strike at the Emperor that could have ended up very badly for him. I am not saying that Horus really cared all that much about the troops under his command but he definitely had a very different endgame in mind than a Heresy set off by Angron (one could argue that Angron was after his own endgame even while participating in the Horus Heresy).

 

I guess what it boils down to, in my opinion, is that the different primarchs had very different motivations for joining the heresy of for staying out of it and that would also have shifted the eventual end goal and even methodology of each of them. To wit, here are a few examples:

 

The Lion believed that the Emperor was the only being worthy of leading humanity / worthy of bending the knee to. For the Lion to start a rebellion he would have to believe that he was a more worthy leader of humanity, so his goal would be to replace him in as legitimate a way as you can run a revolution in the Imperium and leaving as much of the Imperium as intact and undamaged as possible. I could actually see him not starting a military revolution in the first place (while planning for one, of course), but instead going for the political approach, especially if he would have Luther with him. He would find very little support from his brothers in this due to his amazing ability to completely misunderstand other people / primarchs. Basically he would lay out his case to the best of his ability and absolutely certain that everyone would agree that he would be a better leader than the Emperor and completely miss the mark in selling it, thus setting him up for failure. If he started a rebellion it would have ended up as a historical footnote with a title such as "The Folly of the Lion" or "The Misguided Ambition of the Lion" to reflect his pride having overtaken his reason.

 

Angron was angry at the Emperor and he would only be interested in getting his revenge at him. For him the endgame is that the Emperor is dead and preferably, but not necessarily, Angron would be alive long enough to spit on the corpse. Remember that he already dug his grave at Nuceria, after that point you generally don't really care about your life. This could make him a surprisingly effective leader for a rebellion as not really caring about what happens outside of the Emperor dying would give him freedom to pull off tricks that Horus or others would not. Whether he succeeded or not I don't think he would get much support for his act and I don't think he is of the type to even seek it. He would set course for Terra / wherever he thought the Emperor is and get to work carving people up personally alongside his legion. Most likely he would end up a historical footnote with a title such as "The Bloody Demise of the Red Angel" or "The Angron Genocide" to reflect the huge bodycount he would rack up in a very short time.

 

For my mind I think Curze would make the worst leader for a rebellion because he basically was already leading a rebellion against the Imperium by the time Horus started his rebellion, what with the indiscriminate murder and talk of censure due to his extreme measures in bringing words to compliance. His endgame would be that there would be no crime in the Galaxy as everyone would fear him and his legion so much that they dare not commit crime. As a goal that is impossible and I don't really see any of the other primarchs being persuaded to join him in punishing all of the criminals in the galaxy in horrible ways. Had Horus stayed loyal I view the Night Lords as the most likely to have ended up as suffering the same fate as the other lost legions and their primarchs, where there would not even be a historical footnote to remark their passing. If there would have been one, it would be something like "The Censure of Konrad".

 

Here are just three examples, but I think they reflect my thinking quite well and hopefully answer the OP's question.

[Nova_Dew]

I think Angron could do something if he could convince Magnus to help him with the Nails, One of the first things Magnus does after running of to hide is remove the Nails with the help of the warp/Khorn.

Ok, Angron would then be a big red angry guy but slightly more sane and capable of leading for longer than seeing a target, He could plan tactics and strategy, he just couldn't follow them through with the Nails constantly active.

 

People underestimate how strong willed Angron is/was and forget that the deaths of his fellow slaves hurt him and his beef with the Emperor was for not saving them and not for allowing him to die with them. All this while being driven insane by the Nails

[bluntblade]

But Angron rebels against the idea of the Nails being removed and dislikes Magnus.

[Dreagher]

But Angron rebels against the idea of the Nails being removed and dislikes Magnus.

Where is the fluff for the first part from?

[bluntblade]

 

But Angron rebels against the idea of the Nails being removed and dislikes Magnus.

Where is the fluff for the first part from?

 

Resisting Russ. Leman is trying to persuade him to come to Terra and have the Nails studied again with the goal of removing them.

[Dreagher]

 

 

But Angron rebels against the idea of the Nails being removed and dislikes Magnus.

Where is the fluff for the first part from?

 

Resisting Russ. Leman is trying to persuade him to come to Terra and have the Nails studied again with the goal of removing them.

 

Seeing as I can't take this to pm in order to not derail the thread.

 

The only "discussion" I know of between Russ and Angron about the nails is during the night of the wolf and there he never asks him to have the nails removed. Is there a piece of fluff I am missing?

[Crizza]

Ângron was at the start same enough as far as we know, he managed to not be slain by the Emperor after first contact which is always a plus.

 

I very much doubt we will get any information until his primarchs book, but Betrayer is right at the end of his sanity and deteriation. IIRC that is a good 100 years from finding to transformation. During the fight with Russ he actually managed to keep his cool, fight and talk. Which ain't something you would expect from a beast lost to the nails from the moment go in the shadow crusade.

 

He probably could lead a heresy in the same way mortarion would. As in, open it up as a force ready to clear the galaxy of undesirables. Leading would never ever happen unless all the other primarchs decide that the metal cables and pain are too cool to pass on

Angron managed to keep his cool at the start, when confronted by Russ. But he eventually lost it and managed to get encircled by the Wolves.

I realy wish for even a short warp induced dream-story of Angron without the nails. I mean, did the eldar try to kill him after landing on Nuceria because he would get the nails or because his potential without the nails? :D

 

Considering the Lion... Rowboat was actually nervous to meat him, but yeah, I guess because of all the secrecy he is not suited to lead a rebellion.

 

Sadly, I support the Angron camp.

[Kizzdougs]

I think Angron could do something if he could convince Magnus to help him with the Nails, One of the first things Magnus does after running of to hide is remove the Nails with the help of the warp/Khorn.

Ok, Angron would then be a big red angry guy but slightly more sane and capable of leading for longer than seeing a target, He could plan tactics and strategy, he just couldn't follow them through with the Nails constantly active.

 

People underestimate how strong willed Angron is/was and forget that the deaths of his fellow slaves hurt him and his beef with the Emperor was for not saving them and not for allowing him to die with them. All this while being driven insane by the Nails

You're right that Angron would be more of a threat if he had the Nails removed, but who would join him in his rebellion? Maybe Curze? His rebellion would be extremely short lived unless he could convince a significant number of his brothers and Mechanicum forces to join him. I just can't see Angron being a very successful coalition builder.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

I think Angron could do something if he could convince Magnus to help him with the Nails, One of the first things Magnus does after running of to hide is remove the Nails with the help of the warp/Khorn.

Ok, Angron would then be a big red angry guy but slightly more sane and capable of leading for longer than seeing a target, He could plan tactics and strategy, he just couldn't follow them through with the Nails constantly active.

 

People underestimate how strong willed Angron is/was and forget that the deaths of his fellow slaves hurt him and his beef with the Emperor was for not saving them and not for allowing him to die with them. All this while being driven insane by the Nails

You're right that Angron would be more of a threat if he had the Nails removed, but who would join him in his rebellion? Maybe Curze? His rebellion would be extremely short lived unless he could convince a significant number of his brothers and Mechanicum forces to join him. I just can't see Angron being a very successful coalition builder.

 

 

We'll never know how Angron can be without the nails I'm afraid, so discussing whether he can lead the Crusade without the nails is a empty exercise. Sadly the nails turned him into a one dimension character that not even ADB can amend.

 

Still, I would wager that even with nails, he was capable of inspiring incredible loyalty from his sons, which can't be just because of being gene sons. So he must have some leadership qualities that would inspire his soldiers despite his madness.

 

Face it, I think NOBODY ELSE could lead the heresy but Horus, not even Fulgrim who was probably the next popular primarch.

[jeremy1391]

If I had to say who the “worst leader of the Heresy” would be I’d have to go with Angron... he’s a beautifully broken character but he isn’t exactly a strategic genius. If he were to start the Heresy I’m sure his legion would be put down before it gained much traction.

[Dantay VI]

Nah Angron would just go through the Warp to the Sol System, put all warships to full burn and basically just go for the throat in as messy and bloody fashion as possible....