Best Tactical squad builds

[Aothaine]

I use 2x5 with combi-flamer and flamer and march them straight toward objectives that are held by lightly armored foes.

I've used 2x5 with combi-plas and plas with a cheap Captain behind them if facing an elite army, but mostly I face hordes.

 

I'm a huge fan of Flamers too. Not many people here agree with me. I have a list using Flamer Baals, Flamer Razorbacks and Dev squads with 4 heavy flamers. 

 

Remember! Flamers auto hit flyers! ^_^

[Panzer]

 

I use 2x5 with combi-flamer and flamer and march them straight toward objectives that are held by lightly armored foes.

I've used 2x5 with combi-plas and plas with a cheap Captain behind them if facing an elite army, but mostly I face hordes.

 

I'm a huge fan of Flamers too. Not many people here agree with me. I have a list using Flamer Baals, Flamer Razorbacks and Dev squads with 4 heavy flamers. 

 

Remember! Flamers auto hit flyers!

 

I don't think anyone disagrees that flamers are great. Just on footslogging marines they are merely okay. Better put them on something fast like a Landspeeder instead. ;)

[9x19 Parabellum]

Actually, I do disagree that flamers (and and regular) are great. I think they are garbage.   The heavy flamer is ok.

[Aothaine]

Actually, I do disagree that flamers (and and regular) are great. I think they are garbage.   The heavy flamer is ok.

 

My point exactly. But the reason they are so good is that they auto hit. So good! Taking out as much randomness as you can wins the games. But my list only has one normal flamer per dev squad on the Sgt. 

 

Dev Squad (5-man)

Heavy Flamer x4, Combi-Flamer(Sgt)

Razorback (Heavy Flamer)

 

Baal Predator

Inferno Cannon and Heavy Flamer x2

 

Let the cleansing begin.

 

I'll have to look into it but if you can make an Inferno Land Raider that might be a better transport option over the Razorbacks.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Aothaine

[Arkaniss]

A flamer does an adequate job for its points but the range for heavier variants is disappointing, especially for the Flame Storm. Not had much luck with Heavy Flamer Tacs in 8th so far, I tend to go for longer ranged weapons for them now.

[Panzer]

Well then there's one I guess. My Flamer Crisis squad begs to differ tho. :P

[Aothaine]

Well then there's one I guess. My Flamer Crisis squad begs to differ tho.

 

Yeah but the flamer Crisis suits have really good mobility on a fly platform. ^_^ I completely agree with you though. I made a post about them back in like Feb. Three flamers each on a full squad is insane! or you can take the double flamer and the system that gives them the -1 AP.

[Panzer]

 

Well then there's one I guess. My Flamer Crisis squad begs to differ tho.

 

Yeah but the flamer Crisis suits have really good mobility on a fly platform. I completely agree with you though. I made a post about them back in like Feb. Three flamers each on a full squad is insane! or you can take the double flamer and the system that gives them the -1 AP.

 

Hence why I said Flamer should be on mobile platforms in my post above lol

[9x19 Parabellum]

Sure, autohits. But random hits too.

 

A boltgun (0 pts) is going to be able to shoot about 4-6 shots over the course of time that a flamer gets it's first round of attacks in (comparing foot troops here, not jump).  2/3 of those will hit which is going to be about the same number (average) hits that the flamer gets.  Except the flamer set you back 8 pts. I just don't see it. They lost a lot; used to ignore cover and have AP5 or better.

[Aothaine]

 

 

Well then there's one I guess. My Flamer Crisis squad begs to differ tho.

 

Yeah but the flamer Crisis suits have really good mobility on a fly platform. I completely agree with you though. I made a post about them back in like Feb. Three flamers each on a full squad is insane! or you can take the double flamer and the system that gives them the -1 AP.

 

Hence why I said Flamer should be on mobile platforms in my post above lol

 

 

yup yup! Sadly the only mobile platforms we have are Land Speeders which can't carry units and Land Speeder Storms which are only for scouts which can only take 1 flamer on the Sgt if I am remembering correctly.

[Karhedron]

 

I like Plasma Cannons but you need some way to reroll 1s to get the best mileage out of them, they need to overcharge to be worth their points against a lot of targets.

 

With a Dev squad, it is easier to justify a Captain to babysit them. I feel a Tac squad does not justify that kind of character support.

Perhaps, but then one Devastator Squad becomes a target.

 

Four Tactical Squads (i.e. for a tax) with one plasma cannon in each however...

 

The difficulty here is that keeping 4 separate squads within range of the Captain is much harder, especially when moving imposes an additional -1 to Hit which makes overcharging even more risky.

 

Splitting heavy weapons between different Tac squads is certainly a good idea for the reasons you mention but I believe it works better for other heavy weapons than Plasma Cannons. 4 Plascannon Tac squads would effectively be chained together with the Captain. I feel BAs have better plasma caddies than Tac squads and Tac squads have access to weapons they can make better use of than PCs.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Karhedronuk

[Panzer]

 

 

 

Well then there's one I guess. My Flamer Crisis squad begs to differ tho.

 

Yeah but the flamer Crisis suits have really good mobility on a fly platform. I completely agree with you though. I made a post about them back in like Feb. Three flamers each on a full squad is insane! or you can take the double flamer and the system that gives them the -1 AP.

 

Hence why I said Flamer should be on mobile platforms in my post above lol

 

 

yup yup! Sadly the only mobile platforms we have are Land Speeders which can't carry units and Land Speeder Storms which are only for scouts which can only take 1 flamer on the Sgt if I am remembering correctly.

 

And JP Assault Marines, and Bikes, and JP Company Veterans. ;)

[Aothaine]

 

 

 

 

Well then there's one I guess. My Flamer Crisis squad begs to differ tho.

 

Yeah but the flamer Crisis suits have really good mobility on a fly platform. I completely agree with you though. I made a post about them back in like Feb. Three flamers each on a full squad is insane! or you can take the double flamer and the system that gives them the -1 AP.

 

Hence why I said Flamer should be on mobile platforms in my post above lol

 

 

yup yup! Sadly the only mobile platforms we have are Land Speeders which can't carry units and Land Speeder Storms which are only for scouts which can only take 1 flamer on the Sgt if I am remembering correctly.

 

And JP Assault Marines, and Bikes, and JP Company Veterans.

 

 

How many flamers can assault marines and bikes take though? I didn't realize that bikes were an option for flamers other than for the Sgts. 

[brother_b]

The range on the guards' hell hound or whatever is insane. It totally destroyed one of my squads. And charging it? Yeah you're going to eat auto-hitting overwatch like crazy.

 

If they increased the Baal pred's flamer ranger that would be totally worth. As it is, I think 8" is too close for comfort. It puts you into charge range.

[Are Verlo]

The only Tactical Squads I've ran so far (Index FWIW) are five man squads that babysit a plasma cannon. No one feeling the love for the plasma cannon at the moment, or would you rather field it in a Devastator Squad if you had too?

For the same points the devs offer signum (+1 to hit) on the plasma cannon.

But the tacticals will offer more CP and by spenning some points the sgt can have a combi-weapon.

[Panzer]

 

The only Tactical Squads I've ran so far (Index FWIW) are five man squads that babysit a plasma cannon. No one feeling the love for the plasma cannon at the moment, or would you rather field it in a Devastator Squad if you had too?

For the same points the devs offer signum (+1 to hit) on the plasma cannon.

But the tacticals will offer more CP and by spenning some points the sgt can have a combi-weapon.

 

And ObSec not to forget.

Honestly, if you don't plan to go all out with special/heavy weapons, don't take Devastators (unless you really need them for a Brigade Detachment of course).

[Ekfud]

Hmm... Did the ba tac squad just disappear from the gw site? Listed as no longer online this weekend...

[Jolemai]

Probably just getting updated for 8th.

[The Unseen]

 

Actually, I do disagree that flamers (and and regular) are great. I think they are garbage.   The heavy flamer is ok.

 

My point exactly. But the reason they are so good is that they auto hit. So good! Taking out as much randomness as you can wins the games. But my list only has one normal flamer per dev squad on the Sgt. 

 

Getting D6 Random hits is statistically just as random as a set number of shots that roll to hit, you've traded 1 kind of random for another. And anytime a flamer is an option, I'd rather take a stormbolter, and it costs 1/4 as much. Flamers are pretty trash, and I say that as a person who loves them thematically. But were talking about an 8 point weapon that struggles to kill guardsmen with any regularity, a unit that they used to absolutely evaporate while costing 3 points less. I'll pass. Heavy Flamers are ok, their just heavily over-costed; 17 pts is way way to much, considering they cause barely over 1 wound on average to MeQ, going up to 2 dead GeQ. If they had improved range, or ignored cover, or just a better number of random hits (say, d3 per 5 models or something) they'd be a lot more palatable.

 

The double Heavy Flamer Landspeeder isn't to bad, mostly because it both has a ridiculous movement ability to help with the terrible range, but doesn't ignore the movement penalties for literally all the other guns you can give it.

[Panzer]

Except that with non-flamer weapons it depends on your BS and on other hit modifier while a flamer is completely immun to any kind of hit modifier.

Plus you'll always get your 1d6 hits in overwatch without having to pray for 6s. If the enemy charges from outside of 8“ that's fine as well. Makes it more likely for him to fail his charge. ^^

 

As a person who has tons of S5 shooting available cheaper than any Stormbolter units Marines can play....Flamer were MVP in man of my games. You just need the right unit for it. It needs to be rather fast (M8 with FLY from Crisis Suits is enough already) and you need more than just two flamer in the unit to use it aggressively (but then again you also need more than just two StormBolter to use them aggressively as StormBolter unit so that's that)..

tl;dr Flamers aren't trash in general but you need the right type of unit to use them aggressively.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Assuming that's true, like Unseen said, you can get 4 stormbolters per single flamer.  That's 16 shots (at the same (or better) range that a flamer would provide), 11 of which will hit (or 8 if there are chapter tactics/flyer hit penalties involves).  That's still 2.5x the number of hits the flamer will generate on average.  The only time the flamer shines is on overwatch...that's assuming your opponent is not more than 8" away, or able to charge from behind LOS.

 

You can get 8.5 stormbolters per heavy flamer...that's a lot of Dakka.

[Panzer]

Not denying Stormbolter are great. However you also need a whole lot more of them which means less models who could take something else instead. Weapon slots is also a ressource we have to work with.

[Schlitzaf]

5 Man MSU are Fire Support not Main Line. Treat them as such. That said if you are expecting to use 5 MSU without sufficient Razor Spam (6ish) and not as 90 Point Lascannons, it is more certainly ‘Trap’. And ask yourself what do you those two additional CP give you over taking speciality detachment? 5 Man MSU will die to splash fire when your enemy guns just don’t have anything else to shoot.

 

Personally if you insist on Battlelion just take more Intercessors. At 90 Points a 5 Man Squad they are only 2 points more expensive then hvyflamer-combi flamer MSU but require more dedicated firepower to dislodge and can stride up the field. Without needing Razor or Rhino shields. Or take another Intercessors and squad of 6 scouts and bump up other two squads to 6 Man give each PowSword on Sgt. (Or if GW changes mind give PowSword to Intercessors).

 

This gives three chaff Units to either cover flanks or hit one flank hard. While Intercessors move Flank or Center.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Obj secured scoring troops units are mostly good to have.

Board control is mostly required.

 

I am beginning to think 6 troops for dual batt for more command points is not required, only nice to have for what you get.

Batt + Batt = 3+3+3 = 9 cp

Bat+V+V(etc) = 3+1+1+3 = 8 cp

 

Many of our other units are better than troops past a certain list design point in my mind.

Just saying.

 

I don't have the perfect mix myself, but feeling required to field 6 troops is sometimes holding a list back for 1cp in my opinion.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[9x19 Parabellum]

I'm still working the brigade idea, myself, so it's not a 1 CP difference it's a 4 cp difference.