Are Loyalist Space Marines too nice?

[DogWelder]

I've noticed a that most of the mainstream Chapters (Ultramarines, Imperial Fists) are made to generally act like boyscouts in much of 40k literature. I'm not saying they should start shelling refugee camps for entertainment but they should have some kind of edge.

 

For example in the Iron Warriors Omnibus the Imperial Fist Captain took time out of his to give a long speech about the values of compassion, friendship and loyalty to the mortal defenders of a fortress. I swear to god I did not think it was possible for my eyes to roll back that far when I was reading it.

 

In the Ultramarines Omnibus, Uriel Ventris acts like such a bleeding heart for much of the story, having a gigantic saviour complex that compelled him to make decisions not out of strategic necessity but a desire to fanatically adhere to his narrow set of morals.

 

In the Word Bearer Omnibus, the Ultramarine Successor Chapter continuously made gigantic tactical errors due to their belief in a fair and honorable fight that I, despite being an Ultramarines fan, was cheering on the Word bearers gunning them down (and thereby raising the average IQ of the Ultramarine Successor Chapters in general).

 

I think that because these characters are the 'good guys' of the story, there is an effort to make them likeable to the reader. Which is understandable but sometimes it is overdone and you're left wondering how these characters are even Space Marines to begin with. Yes they should have basic morals but they should be much more cynical and hard-hearted even if they are mainstream Chapters.

 

Maybe its my personal beliefs that the notion of a fair and honorable fight is utterly laughable when you have a galaxy-wide war like in the 40k universe but I don't think authors should be afraid to have the Loyalist SMs of the story use dirty and dishonorable tactics if it means victory. Or have negative qualities in their personality (pridefulness, jealousy, disdain towards mortals etc.) 

 

In fact I think these characters would benefit greatly from such qualities. My favourite character (Cato Sicarius) uses several underhanded tricks against the Chaos invaders in 'Chapters Due' and far from making me dislike the character, made me greatly admire his ambition and commitment to winning in the most efficient way possible. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by DogWelder

[Scribe]

You are reading the wrong books. :)

[deathspectersgt7]

 There is plenty on Loyalist Astartes disdain on Mortals . But Generally it a one liner that it could be missed .

[Calas Typhon]

I actually fully agree with you, a lot of those references were not exactly what I would expect from Genocidal powerhouse Astartes. The Ultramarines Books were not particularly great, The Iron Warriors were, however the Fists in it were far far far too kind. The only real time I have seen it played out well and actually enjoyed it was during a Flesh Tearers? short. In which a Chaplain was calling Imperial Guard his brothers to boost their moral and fight to the end. However in his head he was hating and disgusted at calling them that, and only did it so they would not give up and die. If I am right in thinking, Grimaldus was somewhat the same during a speech in Helsreach? 

 

Thankfully the Horus Heresy really has shown a darker side to the Loyalists. A new short favourite of mine Duty-Waits has characteristics that I would expect a Legion that has been facing very very dark times would have. However there are moments when the Loyalists show a decent amount of Honour which leads to them getting their face kicked in, or shot twice by a certain Warsmith.

 

Dirty and Dishonerable tactics should by all rights be fine in use against Chaos and Xenos when you know the dangers of the enemy. 

[MyD4rkPassenger]

I'd chalk it up, if anything in lore, to knowing how to inspire mortals.  Grimaldus is quite the rousing orator in Helsreach as stated above.  He later is chastising the Salamanders for not assisting in a counter attack to help civilians, citing that leaving them to die would have pushed the orks further back.  I'd also attribute it to us being human readers needing to emotionally connect with protagonists or "good guys" in order to feel empathy towards them.  The fact they retain ideas of honor, morality, and compassion in the setting lends well to a reader identifying with a character.  Even in the Night Lords Omnibus Septimus is treated with a small amount of compassion and respect by Talos, a few scenes non-withstanding.  This goes against everything we are led to believe about the compassionless reavers from space worshiping dark gods on top of already being post human killing machines.  In the end I'll agree it is jarring, but strangely enough I hadn't noticed it until looking at those examples. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by MyD4rkPassenger

[Captain_Krash]

Salamanders are very well known for helping and assisting/protecting civilians no matter the cost, it's in there "family like" nature that they still practice.

 

I don't see how giving a speech prior to a battle is "eye rolling" material great leaders have done it throughout our own histories to raise moral and to push those to push themselves.

 

Krash  

[rendingon1+]

There are other chapters than IF and U...

[Donkey Kong]

It's not just space marines. Human characters in this universe are portrayed far kinder, more compassionate, and individually oriented than expected. Some quotations are inspired (i.e. "Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand realise you have no right to let them live!" or "A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time."), but as you've already pointed out, I'm not sure how easy would be reading and empathizing with characters that may as well have walked out of Brave New World.

[Calas Typhon]

There are other chapters than IF and U...

 

Most other Chapters don't really fit into this as they already have established love for mortals, are either borderline insane and don't care or do not interact with the mortal scum.

 

Iron Hands, Carcharodons and Marines Malevolent getting shutouts here.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Warsmith Kroeger

[Marshal Rohr]

In general, the less mature novels have the Hero McHeroFaces being noble and doing "The Right Thing" even when its obviously the wrong thing. Its purely for drama. 

[Jagus Kumkani]

Salamanders are very well known for helping and assisting/protecting civilians no matter the cost, it's in there "family like" nature that they still practice.

 

I don't see how giving a speech prior to a battle is "eye rolling" material great leaders have done it throughout our own histories to raise moral and to push those to push themselves.

 

Krash  

I'm a Salamanders fan-boy through and through, but the compassion of the Salamanders toward humanity gives me a bad taste in my mouth in some instances. Don't get me wrong, I think it's honorable that they would go out of their way to protect the weak. But this very quality of the Chapter has been given too much attention and takes away from the other defining characteristics of the Salamanders. Tenacious, fanatical, stoic, and brutal warriors of the Imperium that stay true to their creed. I think it's forgotten that they are still killing machines. Killing machines that care about humanity because that's what they're fighting to preserve. But killing machines none the less.

 

An instance from Rebirth is when a squad of Centourians spearhead an assault into the city and they spot civilians. They forgo all tactical preservation and just head straight for them, they turn out to be psyker cultists and kill the whole squad. This instance in the book irritated me because that makes no sense in a tactical situation. 

 

The Salamanders are perceived to be the "nice" Space Marines, but I look at this as them being honorable and noble and the epitome of what a Space Marine is.

 

I think it's fine that they want to help humanity, but not at the expense of Space Marine lives and tactical superiority. I'd like if that kind of stuff would stop being written about. 

[b1soul]

I like the idea of different legion, chapters, and individuals having sifferent attitudes.

[Phoebus]

DogWelder,

 

You're reading some pretty old books. Contrast what you saw in those entries with more recent fare by Aaron Dembski-Bowden, Robbie MacNiven, Rob Sanders, Chris Wraight, etc. There's a much broader range of Space Marine depictions now, and I'd wager most of them involve detached, distant, and ruthless individuals who nonetheless are committed to the defense of their species and are capable of rousing fellow humans through sheer personality (Grimaldus, for instance).

KingHongKong,

 

I don't think this is a function of authors being worried of readers not identifying with their characters. Dembski-Bowden and Wraight are arguably the two most popular Black Library authors right now, and neither of them shies from deliberately penning Space Marines as "other."

BreezyLamar,

 

I agree. Personally, I think many authors miss some of the obvious connotations of the Salamanders and their modus operandi. Their signature wargear is literally about burning people alive or melting them. These aren't warriors who should always be shown as kind-hearted. The Promethean Creed has always been about endurance and perseverance, so it stands to reason that the Salamanders aren't so much benevolent guardians as they are shepherds who ensure their flock grows strong. If you ask me, they wouldn't have patience or pity for those who can't hack it in the murderous environment of their Death World (emphasis mine, of course).

[DogWelder]

Wow about that Salamanders part. They gave the Salamanders an even worse treatment than I thought.

 

Editor: I want you to make the Salamanders compassionate

 

Writer: Remove 90% of their Brain Tissue you say? I'll get right on it!

[Wargamer]

It's probably because centering the story around a complete bastard doesn't really engage most readers.

[Phoebus]

Wargamer, I'm not trying to be rude, but that sounds like personal opinion based on a generalization, writ large over a group of people whose tastes can't possibly be summed up that easily.

 

I mean, Josh Reynolds' Word Bearers trilogy was quite popular. Dembski-Bowden practically made his name with a band of Night Lords who chuckle about skinning people alive, backstabbing their allies and opponents alike, and so on. The reality of the matter is that people want well-written books. A well-written character, even a murderous, inhuman one, is a strength to a story - not a detractor.

[carlisimo]

I think DogWelder has a point.

 

imo, the best loyalist-focused HH novels have been Know No Fear and the White Scars novels.  In them, the Ultramarines are clear good guys and the White Scar who interacts the most with loyalists from outside his legion is Yesugei, who's the nicest guy ever to don power armor.  ADB's Xephon (in The Master of Mankind) is also nice, e.g. towards the refugees that the accompanying Custode is dismissive of.  In other authors' novels, the Blood Angels also come across as nice to a fault, as if they were all destined to be founding members of the Lamenters (except Amit, maybe).

 

The Imperial Fists (who also get time in some of the better books) tend to be written as more detached and aloof - no complaints there. 

[b1soul]

"Yesugei, who's the nicest guy ever to don power armor"

 

I would claim hyperbole...but I think you have a point

[mc warhammer]

i'd imagine there's variance across the legion, where maybe we end up reading stories about the individual astartes who are more human friendly? which makes sense for certain stories with human characters in contact with the legions back in 30k.

 

also, the impression i got from false gods and the whole mournival makes humans go squish thing, is that there's a fine line between astartes as protectors of humanity / indifferent to humanity.

[Phoebus]

Yesugei isn't "nice." He's patient and reasonable within the context of this setting. A better criticism might be that Black Library authors don't always capture the ongoing horror that plays out in the background of this setting. Yesugei, for example, dispenses most of his wisdom on a warship where lobotomized human beings are plugged into machines by the thousands. Nobody who accepts this as a norm could be called "nice."

 

mc warhammer makes a great point, by the way. Space Marines care about humanity on a macro level, not the micro - individual - level. Do you honestly think a Space Marine gives a damn about a Guardsman whining about his substandard cold weather equipment in the freezing cold weather? Said Space Marine is probably concerned about the Munitorum's failure to address such an obvious logistical problem means for the Army Group engaged in a campaign on an outer-system ice-hell, but he's not losing sleep over individual soldiers. He might admire stoicism and fortitude they display in such a situation, but that's about it.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yesugei isn't "nice." He's patient and reasonable within the context of this setting. A better criticism might be that Black Library authors don't always capture the ongoing horror that plays out in the background of this setting. Yesugei, for example, dispenses most of his wisdom on a warship where lobotomized human beings are plugged into machines by the thousands. Nobody who accepts this as a norm could be called "nice."

 

mc warhammer makes a great point, by the way. Space Marines care about humanity on a macro level, not the micro - individual - level. Do you honestly think a Space Marine gives a damn about a Guardsman whining about his substandard cold weather equipment in the freezing cold weather? Said Space Marine is probably concerned about the Munitorum's failure to address such an obvious logistical problem means for the Army Group engaged in a campaign on an outer-system ice-hell, but he's not losing sleep over individual soldiers. He might admire stoicism and fortitude they display in such a situation, but that's about it.

Servitors are convicts and poor people, most of the time. I promise, if the alternative was evil sentient replicants, terminator iron men, and lobotomizing people that rob us and ask us for money on our way to Starbucks it would take like one generation to get used to :D

[Phoebus]

Well played!

[Calas Typhon]

I don't think there is a nice in the Universe due to the nature of the time they live in.

 

Servitors are a necessity in the Universe, You could argue that humans could take over that position to reduce the need for them but you would have to rotate them during combat operations and have a fast flow of people coming in and out due to instability. Servitors are naturally superior in combat situations, long straining transit and bulking up shipboard crew due to the extremely long periods of time they can stay functional. I wont really go into too much detail, but the way I look at it, criminals and those that suffer and break oaths/fail astartes trials are extremely useful to just throw away if they are going to die anyway or have committed some horrible crime. And I am pretty sure they have no feeling beyond receiving orders and are probably not aware of the position they are in. They are more of a material than a sentient thing.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Warsmith Kroeger

[Bulwyf]

I disagree with the OP. The Loyal SM don't look for a "fair fight" against the enemies of the Imperium. They do whatever it takes to get the job done. The only shades of difference are how far certain chapters or individual characters will go in terms of  population damage to achieve victory.

 

Keep in mind these are still the guardians of humanity and as such have the duty to defend them. Having some compassion while doing it is just normal. Some Chapters are more "boy scout" than others (Salamanders and UM spring to mind) while others are far less caring (Iron Hands are the top of that list).

[Ascanius]

I'd also attribute it to us being human readers needing to emotionally connect with protagonists or "good guys" in order to feel empathy towards them.

 

Interesting that you say that. I think it's generally true for most readers, but I've never felt this way. I don't have to find anything admirable about a protagonist in order to enjoy reading about them or even sympathise with their point of view. Case in point: Wrath of Iron.